[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes – but even you won't dispute the merit of a higher resolution when it comes to detect subtle sonic differences. .

I think you have to have kit that is such that the levels of noise and distortion are low enough so as to not obscure any differences, so obviously an amp with an SNR of 80db is not going to be very useful if fed with two different signals where the differences are -110db

but once you get to a certain level of competence the limit is not the kit it is human perceptual capabilities.

My M^3 is perceptually silent until after 12;00 where there is a small amount of background noise. At listening levels it is perceptually silent, however the noise that I cannot hear is trivially measurable...I recorded the output from the headphone socket, a 1.48608779s sample and ran a 64k fft on it, both with digital silence and with no signal but a DAC connected. Noise is reported as -113db at peak at 16300hz, okay I don't actually believe this number, I'm pretty sure the real figure is a lot higher, but the point is it has a level of noise that is so low as to not get in the way and this is a $300 amp not some boutique megabuck thingy...

 

[analogsonar]

speaker cables don't matter as much. as long as they are high quality copper that does not oxidize over time then you are good (100% copper and oxygen free). I have noticed more bass and slightly less treble when I use big speaker cables- spending more for ones that look good, have nice connectors and shielding however is worth it if you care. but good ofc like monster will work fine.
analog stereo cables do matter because they are what connects the source to the amplifier, you need a good connection between the two, we are dealing with electronics, and the contact is important. They make all kinds of good cheap rca stereo cables that have gold/silver plated connectors and good shielding. you can get away with cheap coax and usb cables, and get a true signal, but the sound will improve with better ones. However it is easy to overdo it. At a certain price point, you won't notice any difference, unless there is a new conductive material that comes to the market (not an old/new one) If you want to invest in an optical cable, get a warranty as usually the only issue with them is if they bend they can no longer send the light signal. using the 25 cent interconnects that came with the dvd player is a waste.
in fact if you a/b those with some 20-40$ rca cables it sounds totally and completely different, worlds apart. hand-made by someone who knows what they are doing is always a good choice. and that is what I have found out, in my own objective,physical and scientific experience, which is all that matters to me.

 

[Guidostrunk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is why we, as mods, and not members, almost always need to close any threads about cables, religion and politics. It always proves to be a no-win situation with two separate camps pitching their tents, trying to prove why they're right. Which almost always turns into heated debates that include slandering. I, personally hear ginormous differences in cables and burn-in affects, but if you don't, the you are either not as sensitive as me, or are a very lucky person. I wish I couldn't hear the difference between lampshade cable right out of the box, and a Siltech IC with 300 hours of burn-in. All I ask, is that the non-believers take one thing in mind. Since the split seems to be around 50-50, then just try to keep an open mind to what the other 50% are saying. Every headphone from $300 - $3000 have changed monumentally to me, after at least a minimum of 100 hours of play. That, and there are a good deal of manufacturers that insist on a minimum of burn-in. With that said, just keep an open mind that it might be possible. One of the biggest changes that I've ever heard in a phone was the HF-2's. They sounded horrible out of the box (IMHO) but improve drastically after 60 hours. If you don't hear it, then that's fine too. No one is going to win "whether components benefit from burn-in, or that their god is better than anyone else's, or that a donkey is better than an elephant when it comes to politics. But, I will leave you with one thought. If no one thought that their religion was better than anyone else's, then we would have no reason for so much death and destruction and the world would be a much more productive place, and we would be much farther along in loving each other. I come in peace. To serve man (it's a cookbook, dammit, a cookbook). [/end of rant]

Amen brother, well said!

 

[Guidostrunk]

Another dead end cable thread.

 

[charlie0904]

Whether or not, doesn't matter. Sometime human like to convince others to follow, same goes for religion and politics. Why? comments are just for reference, you decide your own belief and allow others to believe theirs.

my friends could not hear difference from a SE110 and a SE530. It is a blessing, really. burn in stuff, even more blessing.

Like Jerry Harvey new logo, hear no evil. JH16. geez.

 

[BIG POPPA]

A question? When we Head-fiers listen to music on our rigs is it in a clinical condition? Are we blindfolded, is somebody swapping cables discreetly, do we have complete control of our listening environment?
Point being when our conditions are challenged that we do not have the right environment to hear what we hear and it doesn't count on the point we are trying to make. The company who shares our opinion does not count because who they are and not on their merits or contributions to this hobby, by some people who discount other peoples findings with opinions without taking the time and or money to find out if an opinion is true or false. DIYing a few things can really cure a false opinion or going to a meet to really find out what somebody believes is true or false. Try your opinion with a crowd? See if you keep the same opinion? Meets have done some really awesome things for me on my Head-fi journey. DIYing has made me more knowledgeable in shaping my belief's. I make the cables that I am using at the moment. I have cables from some reputable manufactures to compare when I have any doubt on the sound on what I listen to now. Just a few thoughts.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think you have to have kit that is such that the levels of noise and distortion are low enough so as to not obscure any differences, so obviously an amp with an SNR of 80db is not going to be very useful if fed with two different signals where the differences are -110db but once you get to a certain level of competence the limit is not the kit it is human perceptual capabilities. My M^3 is perceptually silent until after 12;00 where there is a small amount of background noise. At listening levels it is perceptually silent, however the noise that I cannot hear is trivially measurable...I recorded the output from the headphone socket, a 1.48608779s sample and ran a 64k fft on it, both with digital silence and with no signal but a DAC connected. Noise is reported as -113db at peak at 16300hz, okay I don't actually believe this number, I'm pretty sure the real figure is a lot higher, but the point is it has a level of noise that is so low as to not get in the way and this is a $300 amp not some boutique megabuck thingy...

I think you put too much belief in these numbers. What do they have to do with audible resolution? Of course a SNR of just 80 dB is still sufficient for hearing ultra-fine nuances, that's not the point. Harmonic distortion may be a factor, but it's not clear how exactly it influences resolution – even at very low values.

However: How would you want to measure resolution with headphones? The HD 800, for instance, is the epitome of resolution among dynamic headphones to my ears. But I have yet to see any measurements that show this. As to amps: I've tried quite a few in my audio career. And although all of them made cable differences audible, they varied significantly in resolution. The Corda Symphony is the first amp that manages to equal my all-time reference, the direct connection of the headphone to the Bel Canto DAC2's (20 ohm!) line out – via 500-ohm potentiometer –, in this respect. I'm sure there are other, predominantly balanced amps which would fare equally well. After all it took the technical level of a modern balanced-ground design to do so. All my previous amps fell more or less short in terms of resolution and transparency, not to speak of neutrality.

Now my latest cable experience consists of two HD 800 replacement cables. Both show significantly more detail (accuracy, imaging) than the stock cable, and at the same time they sound very different, also from each other. They're not better in every criterion – at least one of them –, but certainly in detail resolution. (To my ears.) That doesn't mean I have the urge to evangelize the «nonbelievers», it's just for setting a counterpoint to the rationalism in this part of the forum and the evangelization intent behind this thread.
.

 

[eucariote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cswann1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The "do they or don't they make a difference" debate will rage as long as folks are willing to spend time arguing over it.

Some of us are saying that this issue can be settled given the right methodology (hypothesis testing and statistics). Empirical questions about much more complicated proceses are posed, tested and settled using these methods every day. For example, nobody argues any more over the causes of narcolepsy, Parkinson's, etc etc.

Honestly, as someone who uses these techniques for a living, it's not a controverial process at all, and T, F and p values settle all testable hypotheses allow people to build upon an ever-growing foundation of truth and knowledge.

 

[donunus]

I am probably a little late but let me just say.... This type of thread again???

 

[aimlink]

This is the best one I've had occasion to participate in .... I think.

 

[Young Spade]

^And I'm glad I'm following it.

 

[SP Wild]

In my limited experience cables are a huge rip-off. Tell me about it, the cables I had the opportunity to take home to audition had a RRP of AUS $1600, $500, $400 respectively. I mean what a joke - the $1600 cable was at half price - what was I to do? They sounded amazing - far, far, far better than the other two cables. It was only logical that I buy two pairs one for the headphone amp and the other for the speaker amp. Really, why couldn't they cost a more reasonable $50 or so? I will never, ever, buy another interconnect again - one reason I don't want to go balanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark_Jump /img/forum/go_quote.gif So the listener is only able discriminate subconsciously when he is not undertaking an ABX test?

Tell me about it, $1600 on cables that I can only differentiate when no one is watching - don't get me started on the cost of clean power - yet again, only good when no one is watching.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Br777 /img/forum/go_quote.gif surely you all could organize a mass abx cable test at one of your meets? there must be enough gear and modded cables at one of those meets to do the biggest abx cable test ever. Why doesn't someone just set one up. I am sure the people in this forum would absolutely eat up the chance to read what a room full of head-fi meet participants found in their abx cable test.

Perhaps this is something you could undertake the next time you are at a head-fi meet. I would love to hear all about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DayoftheGreek /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do believe you meant round.

The more I think about round earth and flat earth, the more I realise that the answer to this is less significant to me than what I should have for dinner tonight. Would it really matter to you if somehow it is proven that indeed the earth is flat and that when you keep going you just emerge from the other side - making it seem like it was round - and the images in space was an optical illusion. Would it matter to you? would it? would it really?

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP Wild /img/forum/go_quote.gif The more I think about round earth and flat earth, the more I realise that the answer to this is less significant to me than what I should have for dinner tonight. Would it really matter to you if somehow it is proven that indeed the earth is flat and that when you keep going you just emerge from the other side - making it seem like it was round - and the images in space was an optical illusion. Would it matter to you? would it? would it really?

Entertaining post.

 

[Chef]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guidostrunk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Amen brother, well said!

It's more like:
"I think expensive audio cables sound better than cheap ones."
"Really? Please prove it doing a blind test."
"I can't."
"I don't believe you then."
"Why not?!"

Seriously, if you don't have evidence to support your claims, why make the claim at all? Why expect people to believe you, other than their desperate need to belong to the so called 'golden ears' group? It's funny you should compare the argument to religion, because it's basically the same absurd argument. "Please accept everything I say even though I can offer no legitimate support."

I mean, I've got to tell the OP you went to the wrong forum if you came to preach objectivity, but still. It's like going to a Christian forum and telling them there's no reason to believe in god. You're a drop in the ocean of their unyielding faith. Go to HydrogenAudio.org and tell people there's no difference between audiocables. most of them will say 'well duh' and the rest of them will say "have you tested?" The tests I've seen said the cheaper cables are actually superior, but only in excess of 100 feet worth of cable. Otherwise there's no audible difference (what headphone users are concerned with).

That's why arguments on this site go no where. It's either two sides trying to prove something without evidence, or it's a few jerks pointing out the philosophical flaws in people's arguments. No one is actually putting up evidence to prove something, and when they do, they're ignored.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif However: How would you want to measure resolution with headphones? The HD 800, for instance, is the epitome of resolution among dynamic headphones to my ears. But I have yet to see any measurements that show this.

I am sure the HD800 are great headphones, but I am unhappy about the use of ther word resolution, to my mind this word (in this context) has no unequivocal meaning and thus no way to assess it in any objective manner.

If the point of comparison is "this is a great headphone cos loads of people like it" well I have no problem with that, but it does not really tell us anything very useful in this context.

However, if you say this is a great headphone because it possess either or many of:

1) Low distortion
2) low noise
3) Flat frequency response

I would say these are all good things if you are wanting to use these headphones to detect difference between signals. At this point maybe you could say these are resolving headphones because they have 1,2,3 then we are closer, but to just pronounce headphones as resolving with no concrete criteria is back to unfettered subjectivisim and remember where we are