How do I convince people that audio cables DO NOT make a difference
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Nov 10, 2018 at 9:45 AM Post #1,261 of 3,657
You are just going to have to live with the fact that your ears can't perceive the difference.
It was never established that there IS a difference. Maybe there isn't and you'd have to "live with the fact that your ears CAN perceive a difference".

I even joke about unoficcialy mark this thread as solved and closed
You such a funny guy! Ho ho!

Unlike you, I'm also fortunate to own about a dozen of dacs
Just because someone has money doesn't mean they need a dozen of something. That's a sign of mental illness.

I would be lying if I tell you I can spot what dac or x source is sounding in a test
So you're lying?

it's clear that all sound different simply because they are all materially made diferently
No, that's not clear and shouldn't be assumed.

even the same model of an amp or source can sound different simply because the components inside the circuitry have a % of tolerance of their values
That's not true. The differences can be so small that they couldn't possibly be detected by humans. You're making a lot of incorrect assumptions.

not all of us have ... the understanding of this science and the knowledge of electronics, so I get why all these post must be driving you crazy
If you have such understanding, maybe you can use some of your knowledge of science and electronics to explain how DACs can sound different besides just saying it's due to the use of different materials?

you so cheaply cut my sentences to your own convenience that I have decided you are not worth my attencion anymore, I thought you were curious and wanted to learn but if you don't want to accept your reality, no matter how much I tell you about the topic or my findings, you won't be able to agree ever with me simply because you cannot detect differences

here is the not cut to your convenience original version of what I said and as you can see I don't argue I have money, I just point out that like you im also fortunate to own more than a dozen devices and unlike you i hear differences among all my devices:
"Unlike you, I'm also fortunate to own about a dozen of dacs, daps and media players, and several internal sound cards and I can hear the difference in each one of them, now I would be lying if I tell you I can spot what dac or x source is sounding in a test, simply because the way human memory works when it comes to audio and because our ears tend to adapt and fill in info that is not there but to certain extend I will be able to pick a few positives(source model) in such test and many more positives in sorting a source from another"

anyways you will be ignored from now on for not addressing any of my points I made to you in the past pages and insted trying to discredit me with cheap and pointless moves. Trying to call me a liar because I admit I wont be able to spot the exact model of a device sound signature from a dozen in a blind test? really I can't even tell if you are cheaply making this moves or you simply have dificulties understanding english but one thing is for sure, exposing all this will help others determin who gets discredited by their honesty here, you or me.
 
Nov 10, 2018 at 9:50 AM Post #1,262 of 3,657
But if we racked up two DACs... this one and say an iPod Classic right next to each other... playing the same file, level matched, A/B switched, blind... we would be able to hear a clear difference between them, right? That is what I'm looking for.

Do you have access to a DAC that you think sounds clearly different? Would you help us figure out what the difference is?



I have this DAC/headphone amp...
https://www.oppodigital.com/headphone-amplifier-ha-1/

It sells for about $1400 used on eBay. It has a Sabre Reference ES9018 DAC in it. Does this qualify as having more detail, control, attacks, separation, soundstage, etc? I've already tested this one and it doesn't sound any different than any of my other sources. I'm looking for a DAC that sounds different.



You've done this test? Great! Please tell me in detail about how you conducted it and what your specific results were. Do you have access to any DACs that sound clearly different that we could test?

dam a 1400 dollar dac amp that sounds the same than all other sources you have? why you haven't sell it? BIG ULTRA LOL but hey Thank you so much I will make sure I nerver buy that model. Now if you can read (and really not too far, just the previous post right next to yours) you will notice I gave a very simple example of 2 dacs on the same price range from the same company that completely sound different.
 
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Nov 10, 2018 at 10:00 AM Post #1,263 of 3,657
3/ knowing there is the possibility of bias doesn't reduce the impact of that bias. I hate that one so very much, but it just cannot be ignored.

I on the other hand love it, if it wasn't for that I'd be out of a job. In fact my job and many others related to it wouldn't exist because without those biases and our inability to eliminate them, there wouldn't be any music and the argument over who is the greatest musician who ever existed would have been incontrovertibly settled 20 or so years ago (because the answer would be; a computer).

G
 
Nov 10, 2018 at 10:20 AM Post #1,264 of 3,657
the oxygen masks will drop automatically in case of a depressurization of the cabin, the emergency exits are; 2 on the front, 2 on the wings and 2 in the back. if you look at the top of the page, you'll notice the topic is about cables.


@Elecroestatico if I may use a made up story(any similarity to somebody in this topic would be totally not surprising ^_^):
so there are those problems to solve for a job interview. some clearly have a hard time doing so and give up saying most are impossible to solve. I come and declare "lol! I solved them, it's really obvious. but it's ok, we're not all born with the same brain and knowledge. so if it's impossible for some, then that's just how it is. perfectly natural and expected". so far I seem pretty legit and reasonable. somewhat cocky but hey if I did solve the all stuff maybe I deserve to brag a little.
but then, at the end when the employee comes to get the work done, my copy is empty and I tell him that it's all in my head, all solved accurately. he can trust me 130%, I'm the guy for the job. what do you expect that dude to think of me?
later in the hallway, when asked how I solved the problems by fellow examinees, I answer that I went with my guts like I did for decades because I believe it's just as reliable, if not, more reliable than following the accepted method. again, what do you expect those guys to think of me?

if you don't want to properly demonstrate the claims you make. there is a very effective ancestral technique involving not making claims with absolute confidence in the first place. it works wonders.
in here where we play pretend to care about facts more than the size of our own penis. we really don't enjoy reading empty claims. so we ask people to "put up or shut up", hoping that it was just a misunderstanding where the guy making the claim will correct his sentence into an opinion or an impression. or that he will stick to his claim and back it up with reasonable evidence that can be shared with us.

now if you wish to troll all the guys who claim there are no differences between DACs in general or cables in general, I'm with you. because of course nobody can prove that, so nobody should claim it. simple enough. logic doesn't apply only to people we disagree with.


a listening test proving audible differences between gears, has to be an actual test(captain obvious), not something where we know at all time what's going on, where an impression magically morphs into a fact. also it has to be an experience testing hearing and hearing alone. again, duh! but somehow most audiophiles fail to qualify for those so very obvious requirements of a listening test.
if I see 2 different products, obviously I feel a difference, I know there are some, I see some. it would be weird not to get the impression that they are indeed different. but that's not a listening test.
and deciding to willingly focus on sound does not effectively isolate sound from everything going on in our head. if you're not convinced, there are so many experiments demonstrating as much, most can be done to trick friends and family while making my point.
a favorite of this section is the McGurk effect because it's so self explanatory:


it should be pretty obvious that a blind testing, given how annoying it is to set up and run properly, wouldn't be systematically used by scientists when testing impressions if there was an easy effective alternative. like telling the subjects "ok now you only concentrate only the stuff we test, and just tell me if you pass the test, I'll take your word for it because you know what you heard". "oh and BTW, if you somehow were to believe you pass, you could consider yourself special and belonging to the elite. it would also reassure you about all the money you spent. just think about that, no risk to be biased into making stuff up just to get the result you really want to get so very much. and certainly we have no reason to set up a test that would identify when people happen to think they perceive differences but really don't. we can fully trust them to know better than being biased like newbies".
in any domain, this is a lame sarcastic joke. in audio forums, the majority argues very seriously that it's exactly how a listening test must be done. ignorance and group thinking can really achieve impressive results.



so to summarize:
- a test should involve actual testing, not be me asking to myself how much I agree with what I think I feel.
- if we have X independent variables in a test about audio, and most aren't audio variables, we're not testing audio! in fact we're probably not getting any meaningful data.
- if you can't set up a proper listening test by yourself, that's perfectly understandable. and if you can but don't want to, again, we all very much understand. that shiit is hard and boring at the same time. no shame, no judgement, I often don't properly test stuff myself ^_^. but then, let's agree that we're not qualified to pass judgements on the results of those tests we didn't do. pretty simple request IMO.




no it's not a long post!

Thank you I know you are all the way with me, not only about making fun of those claiming cables amps and dacs sound the same (LOL sorry but everytime I writte this it makes me laugh very hard all over again, never gets old).

When I said I unofficially marked as solved and closed this thread I was clearly joking, I even pointed out this a few pages back :)

Can't really convince anybody that something is sounding different if they are not perceiving it, for them it's like if you try to force me to look at the sky and agree with you that is green, so I understand them.
 
Nov 10, 2018 at 10:28 AM Post #1,265 of 3,657
I on the other hand love it, if it wasn't for that I'd be out of a job. In fact my job and many others related to it wouldn't exist because without those biases and our inability to eliminate them, there wouldn't be any music and the argument over who is the greatest musician who ever existed would have been incontrovertibly settled 20 or so years ago (because the answer would be; a computer).

G
about the greatest musician, that was actually settled about 20 years ago...Freddie Mercury :)
 
Nov 10, 2018 at 10:57 AM Post #1,266 of 3,657
Thank you I know you are all the way with me, not only about making fun of those claiming cables amps and dacs sound the same (LOL sorry but everytime I writte this it makes me laugh very hard all over again, never gets old).

When I said I unofficially marked as solved and closed this thread I was clearly joking, I even pointed out this a few pages back :)

Can't really convince anybody that something is sounding different if they are not perceiving it, for them it's like if you try to force me to look at the sky and agree with you that is green, so I understand them.


You have an amazing ability to ignore the points that were made in that and other posts.

Again, do you have anything beyond your own sighted observation to support your claims, or are we simply expected to abandon essentially all current knowledge of audio reproduction and believe you simply because you made a few snarky posts on the internet? As Castle suggested and you conveniently ignored, its “put up or shut up” time.
 
Nov 10, 2018 at 11:46 AM Post #1,268 of 3,657
you so cheaply cut my sentences to your own convenience that I have decided you are not worth my attencion anymore, I thought you were curious and wanted to learn but if you don't want to accept your reality, no matter how much I tell you about the topic or my findings, you won't be able to agree ever with me simply because you cannot detect differences

here is the not cut to your convenience original version of what I said and as you can see I don't argue I have money, I just point out that like you im also fortunate to own more than a dozen devices and unlike you i hear differences among all my devices:
"Unlike you, I'm also fortunate to own about a dozen of dacs, daps and media players, and several internal sound cards and I can hear the difference in each one of them, now I would be lying if I tell you I can spot what dac or x source is sounding in a test, simply because the way human memory works when it comes to audio and because our ears tend to adapt and fill in info that is not there but to certain extend I will be able to pick a few positives(source model) in such test and many more positives in sorting a source from another"

anyways you will be ignored from now on for not addressing any of my points I made to you in the past pages and insted trying to discredit me with cheap and pointless moves. Trying to call me a liar because I admit I wont be able to spot the exact model of a device sound signature from a dozen in a blind test? really I can't even tell if you are cheaply making this moves or you simply have dificulties understanding english but one thing is for sure, exposing all this will help others determin who gets discredited by their honesty here, you or me.

Hey, you're the one who said you were lying. Maybe I have "dificulties(sic) understanding english(sic)" because you're not actually typing in it. E. g. : "the not cut to your convenience", "I can't even tell if you are cheaply making this moves", etc.
 
Nov 10, 2018 at 11:53 AM Post #1,269 of 3,657
[1] and one more lol about transparency, simply because there is no such thing in audio, we aim at it and
[2] it's the goal set to achieve perfection in the reproduction of dynamics of analog signal (at least for amplifiers) but simply because there is no perfect amp we can never use transparency as the measurment to label all amps sound the same, thats is totally ridiculous and
[3] like i said its a mix of not having good ears, [3a] revealing enough equipment and [3b] a wrong way to think about science

1. Clearly you don't understand the use of the term "transparent". Audibly transparent does not mean "perfect", it means any imperfections are below the threshold of human hearing and therefore the reproduction MUST sound transparent.
2. No, that is NOT the goal! It is impossible to perfectly reproduce the dynamics of a signal in either the analogue or acoustic domains. To do so would require breaking the laws of physics. However, that's irrelevant because that level of perfection is not required because OBVIOUSLY audible transparency is reached long before we get near to breaking the laws of physics.
3. Correct, we don't have good enough ears, I don't, bigshot doesn't, you don't and neither does any other human being!
3a. Yep, I've heard that nonsense many times from ignorant audiophiles. Or, maybe you're not an ignorant audiophile, maybe you know what equipment I have and how revealing it is? That can't be true either though, because if you know what equipment I have you wouldn't have said that, as it's a good bet that your system is less revealing than mine!
3b. And what's a right way to think about science, that you can hear the inaudible, that you can hear better than equipment can measure? You didn't answer a single question put to you (in this post), why is that? To recap one of them, do you also believe you can see further than the Hubble space telescope or an Electron microscope? You know that neither the Hubble nor electron microscopes are perfect right? Does that mean you don't have good eyes because you can't see better than they can?
[1] HAHAHA really you are going to show me that an iphone 6 performs the same as a chord hugo?
[2] LOL the noise levels and artifacts is just a tiny part of all of the things that make one source different from another, sure they both can play the same song, so like you said they can both perform the same task of audio reproduction lol just not with the same performance.
1. NO, no one is saying that an iPhone 6 performs the same as a Chord Hugo, there are easily measurable differences. What we are saying is that those differences exist but are inaudible, they are below the threshold of human hearing and therefore, as we are all human beings, we can't hear them. Likewise, we can easily measure differences between a few molecules of water and a few molecules of salt but we can't tell any difference just by looking at them, because they are very tiny and well below the threshold of human vision. To human eyes, they look completely transparent!

2. A DAC has just one task, to convert digital data into an electrical current, that's it, NOTHING MORE and nothing less. That electrical current and any "artefacts" (imperfections) in it, therefore COMPLETELY define the performance/fidelity of a DAC. And, modern DACs, even cheap ones, can accomplish that task with a level of artefacts (imperfections) that are below the threshold of human hearing. ...
But like I said, if my ears were unable to detect differences in sound I would probably be one of you guys claiming cables don't make an audible difference and it would drive me crazy people who would claim otherwise.
That's the whole point, YOU ARE one of us "guys" whose ears are unable to detect the differences in sound between cables, unless you do not have human ears and are therefore not a human, so is that what you are claiming??

Assuming that you are a human being and as the differences between cables are so far below what human hearing can detect, the ONLY explanation for you perceiving differences between cables, is that something MUST be occurring within your perception itself! There is NO other (rational) explanation.

G
 
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Nov 10, 2018 at 1:58 PM Post #1,270 of 3,657
To Whom It May Concern:

Changes in knowledge after a course can be very complex and each type of change may require a specific educational effort. Thus for knowledge that is correct both before and after a course it may be enough to preserve it with periodic meetings. On the other hand, knowledge that is wrong before and after a course should require a stronger educational effort, especially if it is held with a high degree of certainty. In this case, the traditional educational approach might not be sufficient and patients could need to be addressed on an individual basis. Finally, wrong knowledge that becomes correct or correct knowledge that becomes wrong, both with a low degree of certainty, could be managed with recurrent meetings. Along this way of reasoning, patients that after a course persist in giving a wrong answer, but do so with a lower degree of confidence, should be told that the quality of their knowledge has improved.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/664d/82df213e2a82f43ebf0a630f7ff3d384f1a8.pdf
 
Nov 10, 2018 at 2:49 PM Post #1,271 of 3,657
Can I get bleu cheese dressing on that word salad?
 
Nov 10, 2018 at 3:13 PM Post #1,272 of 3,657
but if you don't want to accept your reality, no matter how much I tell you about the topic or my findings,

What findings??

You still have not answered the question about blind testing. Have you ever been the recipient of or conducted one yourself and with what equipment.

Oh yeah mate, one more thing, you have still not provided any solid evidence to back your claims. Clown.
 
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Nov 10, 2018 at 3:41 PM Post #1,273 of 3,657
Now if you can read (and really not too far, just the previous post right next to yours) you will notice I gave a very simple example of 2 dacs on the same price range from the same company that completely sound different.

Terrific. How did you determine that they sound different? Can you tell me about your listening test? What controls did you put on your test to eliminate bias? How did you insure that the comparison was on a level playing field? Which of these two do you suspect is the DAC that is colored? Or are neither of them audibly transparent? Did you check them against DACs that are known to be transparent to find out? Do you have access to these DACs right now? Could we arrange to borrow them to verify your test results?

Can't really convince anybody that something is sounding different if they are not perceiving it

Sure you can. Do a well controlled test. Get someone to verify it by reproducing your well controlled test. We will all believe you. I'm asking for you to help us understand how you employed controls so we can move on to verifying your results. Right now, they're just unsubstantiated claims.You are experiencing peer review right now. That is designed to challenge your claim so you can back it up with solid proofs. We are all willing to help you build the proof. You just need to jump in and help us support your claim. You've been wiggling all around, adopting a confrontational tone and trying to avoid providing any solid evidence at all. That is naturally going to make people suspicious about the validity of your claims. I'd love it if you are right. You just need to do more than just say something in sound science. You have to back up what you say here.

Castle, in response to your comment about pinning. The value in pinning those posts isn't in the comments. It's that the first posts are great FAQs that answer a lot of questions we get asked all the time around here. I have directed several people to those posts. They're doing their job.
 
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Nov 10, 2018 at 4:07 PM Post #1,274 of 3,657
Thank you for the welcome! Don't be sorry about my wallet, its for sure not as fat as yours, but I have the power of knowledge on my side!

Oneguy is quoting a Head-Fi greeting. Search for it here on Head-Fi.

You may want to tone down that attitude a little if you want to have a more harmonious relationship with your peers here.

see what you guys have done for posting answers to questions that are not being asked? now people is more confused, so just follow my step guide and dont skip any instructions and you are good to go. Do I need to say it one more time guys?

also like my helpful posts please...im hungry for attencion

Yeah I guess some of us have better hearing... I too can tell the difference in the 2 headphone jacks

Screw you!

I know a way to make you mojo completely silent if thats what you are looking for, but that requires a half loaded bucket and couple minutes of your time, PM if you are interested lol.

LOL nice thread for halloween, late, but nice

hahaha please when you gain more experience do not delete your post

Seems he likes to be an asshole on all threads - his post about being hungry for "attencion" sums this guy up perfectly.

How about the "also like my helpful posts please" - now that's just gold!!

@Elecroestatico why are you doing this?? Be a man, apologise and pull your head in.
 
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