How do I convince people that audio cables DO NOT make a difference
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Sep 27, 2022 at 12:37 PM Post #3,301 of 3,657
You make me sad.😭

About what?

I though it is a very (very) simplistic answer. 🤔😉
Well mostly I am very skeptical about these "differences":
- Pure copper = "natural" after all.
- Pure silver = transparent, without colours. But sometimes a bit "bland" and lacking a bit of substance.
- Gold = warm, round.
- Rhodium = sharp, sometimes "acid"...
- Palladium = fast, sharp.
- Platinum = textured, uncoloured, more weight (tones).
Like others have pointed out...
I don't think these materials affect sound in this manner at all.
Didn't mean to offend or anything. If it makes you happy and its audible to you, good!
 
Sep 27, 2022 at 12:45 PM Post #3,303 of 3,657
Well mostly I am very skeptical about these "differences":

Like others have pointed out...
I don't think these materials affect sound in this manner at all.
Didn't mean to offend or anything. If it makes you happy and its audible to you, good!
Just try it.

A very easy way to try it is to borrow iem cables.

And then we talk. 👍

With pleasure.

But you have right = this not at all the main point about a cable "can" sound. 😉

It's interesting, because the platinoïds (rhodium, palladium, platinum...) haven't a very good conductivity. Copper and silver, even gold, are all far better.

But they have other specificities. 😉

What I realized is that conductivity is not the main element. At least for weak currents.

In which way it affect the sound the way I discribe it ? I just don't know... 😑

And no offend at all : we are discuting 👍
 
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Sep 27, 2022 at 1:02 PM Post #3,304 of 3,657
Hopefully you're not trying to say that an identical audio file (16/44.1) being played back to an identical output (speakers/HPs) in these …
I’m very familiar with the bottom two, particularly the bottom one, because I’ve owned and used 3 of them almost every day for several years. The top two look like children’s toys so it’s unlikely they would be able to power many/most decent quality HPs. It’s also quite likely they’ve done something silly with the internal wiring design or component shielding that you wouldn’t find in an adult laptop/device. It is still entirely possible that a DBT would reveal no audible difference and if you could just take the DAC chip output it’s even more unlikely there would be any audible difference. It’s difficult to be certain in this case because it’s just children’s toys and audio performance is probably a long way down the list of priorities. I was talking about comparing audio devices with audio devices, not pro-audio devices with children’s toys that aren’t even primarily audio devices!
Well. Profitability or Noble science goals?
Why is that a contradiction? For much of audio recording history noble science goals (I presume you mean higher fidelity?) and profitability were largely correlated. Of course there were probably always some exceptions but around the end of the 1990’s this correlation ran into a brick wall. “Noble science goals” not only reached the limit of human audibility but could do so cheaply. Since then, noble science goals have taken a back seat to not so noble marketing goals! All the hi-res stuff beyond 16/44 is, for the audiophile consumers, just one marketing goal after another and it will continue until the audiophiles can no longer be convinced by the marketing BS.

G
 
Sep 27, 2022 at 1:22 PM Post #3,305 of 3,657
- For your first answer : so I am. I am only talking about my experience, empirical and pragmatical ways.
Okay.

- For your second answer : you are talking about a "snap" , etc... What is the current capacity of your gears ? And which loudspeakers do you use ?
I don't know the current capabilities. Calculating from power measurements at least 8 A peak current.

My speakers are DIY Hifi 6/2 (small 6 liter 2 way speakers) with Hifi 55/2 (55 liter) passive sub to extent the bass from 50 Hz to 25 Hz. Nominal impedance is 8 Ω.
 
Sep 27, 2022 at 1:31 PM Post #3,306 of 3,657
I came here because I have tried a Cirrus Logic DAC for the first time and it really was mindblowing how could such a small change make such a difference. Hence my username. Was it all placebo?
There’s only a handful of DAC chip manufacturers, even in the 1990’s no one could blind test the difference between them and they’ve only got better since then, not worse. It is possible there was something else in that DAC that made it sound different, maybe you didn’t accurately compensate for it’s output level, maybe it had a pathological filter (not likely but possible)? If you did accurately level match, far and away the most likely is indeed “all placebo”.
What I realized is that conductivity is not the main element. At least for weak currents.
So a wire’s job is to conduct an electrical signal but conductivity of an electrical signal is not the main element, particularly for weak currents. Got it, thx. BTW, what is the main element then, the colour of the metal, how cool it looks, how much audiophile magic it generates? You’ve got to laugh!
In which way it affect the sound the way I discribe it ? I just don't know...
Magic would seem an ideal candidate; it can’t be measured, there’s no scientific explanation for it and no reliable evidence about it. With all this going for it, what could possibly be better?

Go on, you know you want to. You can’t be happy in a public forum with “I don’t know …”, be a man, go for it, say “it’s audiophile magic” and be proud of being a Frenchman! (Sorry Castle :darthsmile:)

G
 
Sep 27, 2022 at 2:01 PM Post #3,307 of 3,657
Hopefully you're not trying to say that an identical audio file (16/44.1) being played back to an identical output (speakers/HPs) in these:
Will sound the same as with these:....Are you?
I have no idea what the capability is of those particular children's players are and that fancy piece of gear doesn't appear to be a CD player, but a CD player is a CD player. If it can play a CD and it's rated playing according to plain vanilla Redbook specs, it's putting out a signal that is audibly transparent. That doesn't mean the speaker is audibly transparent. None are. But to put the comparison in terms of a player I do know about, if you took line out from a $35 Walmart DVD player and ran it through the best system in the world, it would sound the same as a high end transport/DAC combination playing the same CD. 16/44.1 is 16/44.1. If a player can play a digital file, it's playing it to spec. There are no shades of gray.
 
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Sep 27, 2022 at 2:11 PM Post #3,308 of 3,657
Interested by the answer ? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
- Pure copper = "natural" after all.
- Pure silver = transparent, without colours. But sometimes a bit "bland" and lacking a bit of substance.
- Gold = warm, round.
- Rhodium = sharp, sometimes "acid"...
- Palladium = fast, sharp.
- Platinum = textured, uncoloured, more weight (tones).


This is what I'm referring to as horse manure. This is totally made up. It's based on your squishy personal feelings and has nothing to do with the way electricity conducts through various metals. Putting your words in bold don't give them added gravitas, it just draws attention to how wrong you are. It's a complete waste of time to post junk like this, because unless I have your brain and eat the same thing you had for lunch and feel the same as you do, I will certainly hear something totally different. Your descriptions are 100% pure, unadulterated solipsism.

The way you find out how metals affect sound signals is to factor the type of metal against the design of the cable and how long it is. That will give you an idea of whether the conductivity is different enough to cross the threshold of audibility. When we're talking about normal interconnects, that's not bloody likely.

I patiently answered you plenty of times. Other people in this thread did too. You've ignored us and plowed forward spreading the manure. That's fine, but I'm not going to pretend your comments deserve respect because they don't. You don't know what you're talking about and your ignorance doesn't hinder you from talking in the least. Dunning and Kruger's study applies perfectly to you.
 
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Sep 27, 2022 at 2:32 PM Post #3,309 of 3,657
This thread makes me physically ill. So, I stop being here.
 
Sep 27, 2022 at 2:55 PM Post #3,311 of 3,657
Okay.


I don't know the current capabilities. Calculating from power measurements at least 8 A peak current.

My speakers are DIY Hifi 6/2 (small 6 liter 2 way speakers) with Hifi 55/2 (55 liter) passive sub to extent the bass from 50 Hz to 25 Hz. Nominal impedance is 8 Ω.
OK thanks 😉

Easy load? Your impedance curse is angled or not ? 🤔
 
Sep 27, 2022 at 2:56 PM Post #3,312 of 3,657
Sep 27, 2022 at 3:52 PM Post #3,313 of 3,657
I had mentioned that most audio industry evolved on profits, to which bigshot annoyingly said that this is "laughable". I quote:
Then goes on to say audio perfection was the goal since the 1920s and that mankind has only worked toward achieving its pinnacle ever since until we finally got to the invention of the CD:
However, some posts later, we go back into saying that the audio industry is mostly based on BS and sales pitches:
There is absolutely no contradiction there.

OK. I am going to answer this question and spend time to answer it thoroughly. I wouldn't throw pearls before swine with Dave, but I will work with you, because you ask the right questions.

The engineers who developed sound technology had audible transparency as a goal, beginning in the 1920s. If you asked the scientists at Bell Labs in the 1920s what their ideal sound reproduction technology would be, they would describe an audibly transparent medium that does not have generation loss or surface wear, a long playing time, and has a small storage footprint. Their description would match the Compact Disc perfectly.

Sound engineers who design audio formats and components have to consider efficiency and cost as well. The designers of the compact disc did that. They designed a format that was very practical- discs could be recorded and mastered in the home, burned or replicated for less than a dollar, and the manufacture of the playback equipment was scalable to the point where devices that played to spec could be made for under $50.

All of this progress follows a path that serves society and fills a need efficiently. Commercial compromises have been completely overcome.

Since 1985, we've enjoyed perfection in sound reproduction and the cost has steadily declined from high end prices at the beginning to $30 or $40 for a player today. The Compact Disc completely blew other formats out of the water and replaced them. Then MP3s and other compressed file formats came along and blew CDs out of the water. The file you can download from the Apple Music store is just as audibly transparent as a CD, even though the file sizes are a tenth of the size. With small file sizes and without being tied to a physical object, that made it possible to distribute music through the air like radio. You can share your music with your friends over bluetooth. They don't even have to buy it! Huge benefit to consumers. As far as consumers are concerned, we are living in a golden age of sound reproduction. It couldn't possibly get any better.

Now is where the commercial interests come in... If music can be distributed from person to person for free without being anchored in a physical product, and if the players for the music are mass produced for less than two twenty dollar bills in China, how can the home audio industry make any money on it? Put yourself in the place of Sony or JVC... or Universal Music... or even the high end audio retailer downtown that competes with the big box stores. What would you do?

Think about that a minute.

OK. We are now in the year 2000. Everything from Bell Labs in the 1920s to today has led to perfection in audio reproduction. But all of the advantages are with the consumer and the retailers, manufacturers and record labels are SOL. What would you do if you were them?

If you are a record label, you would...

• Put a lock on the files. DRM or Digital Rights Management

• Discourage permanent ownership of files and transition to streaming services. How do you charge someone for Dark Side of the Moon when they own three copies already? Get them to trash their permanent copies and charge them rent!

• Centralize the availability of music to discourage peer to peer streaming or file sharing and instead direct people to use huge online music sources operated by record labels to stream music for a fee.

• Create physical copies to buy in "collector's editions" or esoteric formats... Vinyl, blu-ray audio, big box sets with fancy books and outtakes... How do you convince someone to buy a physical copy of Sgt. Pepper or Dark Side of the Moon when they can just stream it? Create a collector's box and encourage consumers to upgrade to a shelf filling super deluxe edition.

• Try to convince consumers that there is sound quality beyond audible transparency... 24/96, SACD, blu-ray audio, etc. Even though all of these sound formats are exactly the same to human ears, promote the THEORETICAL differences to plant doubt in consumers' minds about whether CDs or MP3s are "good enough". "Maybe there's some information missing in lossy audio that might make sound more realistic." Of course there is no difference, but all you need to do to make a sale is plant enough doubt. People will buy the MP3, then the CD, then they'll wonder if HiRes music has more "detail" and "a wider soundstage". Even though it doesn't they'll buy an SACD or download a HiRes file anyway... just to be safe.

If you are an equipment manufacturer, you do similar sorts of things...

• Design your equipment to look different to create brand identity (Apple) and then plant doubt that (maybe) your equipment has (theoretically) better sound quality without presenting any proof (MQA).

• Invest your product with status. People will pay more for a product that makes them feel good about themselves. A shinier finish on the box, some bigger knobs, maybe a little bit of hardwood as an accent... voila! You can add a few hundred dollars to the price. The electronics inside can be stock components that are the same as in every other brand, but the consumer now has perceived quality in workmanship, and that will rub off on their perception of sound quality. That aqua glow of McIntosh components instills confidence in their products. And that confidence translates to expectation bias when a customer compares sound. Once people have invested their self-worth into your product, you've got them on the hook. Pride in ownership! They can't change their mind without scuttling their own ego and admitting their own inability to hear differences.

• Buy off the press. Magazines are suffering financially anyway. It's easy to negotiate your advertising budget to include plenty of favorable advertorial articles and ensure positive reviews. Invest authority in magazine writers who will say whatever you want. Quote their reviews on your website. Tell people that this reviewer is the leading authority in the field. You own him, so he won't be causing any trouble.

• Create brand loyalty in social media. Ever notice how people in forums congregate around certain brands? That's seeded by the manufacturers. They identify influencers among the crowd and give them free stuff. That happens right here on Head-Fi. Most of the time, the influencers never mention the stuff they get for free to talk up the brand. Create walled gardens. Establish forums with rules that punish opinions and facts that hurt sales. Have the admins talk about "fairness" in letting completely made up opinions have equal weight (or better) than well supported ones. That will control what consumers hear and direct them in the profitable way. Once you've closed off dissent, the sales pitch becomes "general knowledge" and everyone will parrot it as "fact". Most of Head-Fi is cut and paste sales pitch from manufacturer's websites presented as individual posters' words.

• Publish deceptive equipment specs... Focus people's attention on things that don't matter, like super audible frequencies and noise floors far below the threshold of audibility. Encourage them to choose one model over another simply by looking at numbers in the abstract. "This set of headphones goes up to 28kHz (+/-9dB)! That must be better than this set that only goes up to 22kHz (with a +/-3dB variation)." Most audiophiles haven't a clue about where the thresholds of audibility lie in the real world. A lot of sound science people don't even know because they focus on test tones and absolute thresholds instead of just what matters when you are sitting on the couch listening to Beethoven.

• If science doesn't sell the product, then spread distrust of science. Push ideas like "If we don't know everything about sound, we can't know anything." or "Blind tests have been proven to be faulty at times, so I don't believe in blind tests." or things that completely go against established facts like "You can only compare two sound samples by living with each one for a long period of time." or "I can recognize my bias and eliminate it from my sighted comparisons." Manufacturers can be scientific when it comes to trying to explain the inaudible theoretical differences between their product and a competitor, but they should poo poo science when someone threatens to do an actual controlled listening test to compare the two. When in doubt, call for more stringent controls until a test isn't practicable any more, and second guess the testing methodology after you find out the results didn't go your way. Cherry pick just information that serves your argument.

OK. That's enough of a rant for now. My point is that if you look at the progression of home audio development from the dawn of recording at the turn of the century to today, you will find science leading the way and solving all the problems. If you look at it from 2000 to today, you see an industry that has been raped by commercial interests. Those two aren't mutually exclusive the way your question at the top of this post puts it. You have to consider the time frame you're talking about, because today isn't the same as 30 years ago.
 
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Sep 27, 2022 at 11:29 PM Post #3,314 of 3,657
My point is that if you look at the progression of home audio development from the dawn of recording at the turn of the century to today, you will find science leading the way and solving all the problems.
Thank you. This was better, more concise, more informative and more honest than any silly infographic on "The History of Recording Music" I've seen!

I've often tried to timeline whatever happened since the first discoveries up to today. Suppose this will do. Yeah, it doesn't have cute shiny graphics with pop up text balloons, just plain text, but instead it's on point and extensive which is infinitely more valuable. You spoke all the quiet parts out loud - shh! Are you not afraid of a permanent ban? They're coming to get you. Better lock the windows and doors really well tonight.

PS: Your post should be pinned at the home page of these forums.

Create brand loyalty
That hit me. :'/ #Cirrus4ever

(Just joking... I was not a victim of any salesman, nor does this company's product make part of my ego or status. I have no friends to show off anyway. *awkward laugh*)

It is possible there was something else in that DAC that made it sound different, maybe you didn’t accurately compensate for it’s output level, maybe it had a pathological filter (not likely but possible)? If you did accurately level match, far and away the most likely is indeed “all placebo”.
Here is the part that noone will like to read but I have to say it (feel free to ignore or disagree - I stand by it):

It cannot be placebo. I refuse this idea of "it's all in your head, figments of your imagination, because you wanted to sooo very much!!". That's just gaslighting suicide and throwing years of audio listening experience out the window. I will refrain from throwing personal adjectives at you like Dave did, but I can sense he may have experienced what I have experienced regarding two things: 1) I am very used to my sound system, I am very used to listening to things on a daily basis acutely in it and 2) suddenly I've heard things I never thought previously possible to come out of my speakers - something new, something different, strikingly so, brutally even: new nuances, transients, realism in songs I took for granted by heart; it was a game-changer, a level-up, setting the bar higher of my entire system - with this simple change of DAC, which was the only component changed in the link. In Dave's case, it was cables instead (seems unlikely to me but I won't get into that). I could agree that it might not have been the DAC chip itself. It might have been something else within its implementation? Something I cannot quite put my finger on, maybe the output stages are now properly set? impedance? amplification issues? I frankly do not know. But who cares. It is better now, that's what matters, for whatever reason. But I will not abide to the idea that it is non-existent. Something real exists that changed and I just cannot trace it. Whatever 'problem' there was in my system, there is no more, thanks to it. It fixed something I heretofore didn't know I needed.

If it can play a CD and it's rated playing according to plain vanilla Redbook specs
If a player can play a digital file, it's playing it to spec. There are no shades of gray.
How about this. What If:
1) Manufactures aren't properly rating these specs? who does the rating? is there any verification from an exempt third-party auditor?
2) They're deliberately delivering below specs items because most of us wouldn't notice anyway and it's cheaper?
3) Cheap chips could cause weird quantization errors, or other artifacts in its decoding?
4) The actual analogue electric current generated was garbled from it's original information packet from the digital data it received? yes, it can read vanilla specs, alright, but does that prove it emits the same equivalent specs in analog form with all of its integrity? is there any actual proof to this, testing, verification, auditing?

I mean. Why not? We've seen that in the cable industry the product engineers are not a tiny bit ashamed to deliberately create so-called premium products and lie about the qualities of their products in bad faith of the technical knowledge they've learned. Just in order to sell overly priced items to the unwary user.

I think all these things could account for a DAC behaving differently. And each chip is designed differently, they are not all identical. Each brand has their proprietary technology, from the machines they use to build things to the assembly part. A factory might have better quality control than another. What makes every model of every brand apparently homogenic is that they all "deliver the necessary specs" ie: they can read 16/44.1 or sometimes higher. But is that really reliable? It's just numbers... it doesn't measure the quality of the output signal that was translated.

Try to convince consumers that there is sound quality beyond audible transparency... 24/96
This 96khz format is a mistake, as is 192khz. Multiples of 44.1 are the proper way to avoid quantization errors.

do you really believe that wax cylinders were the height of audio fidelity and it’s been downhill ever since, have you ever heard one?
No, but I think the point that the Mojo guy was trying to make is that cylinders have "Tangential tracking…no arc error…no skating error" compared to "Disks warp... arch error... skating errors introduced." of discs. Implying that our audio history could have had it much better (for the purist) if the standard format evolved upon cylinders instead of going to discs. Not necessarily wax, other materials could've been developed and used. Anyway, with digital this is all gone. Vinyls looked cooler than cylinders anyway.

On top of that is heaped the "analog is better than digital” bull crap.
It seems this is because digital is actually so clean, true, perfect, sterile; a 100/100 copy. So it's about what digital is lacking: defects. The same with transistor vs valve/tube amps: there's some harmonic distortion added and we like it. Humans as we are, we actually like (controlled) defects. Take the "lo-fi" genre, for example. Adding vinyl pops and clicks and hum to songs. Not always do we crave for perfection; there is beauty in imperfection.

anechoic test.jpg


People who have volunteered to stay in absolute silence in anechoic chambers, where you can listen to the sound of your own body organs, often cannot stay there longer than 15-30 minutes, reporting uneasiness and even hallucinations.

Humans need noise; birds chirping, insects, wind blowing, rain drops, a fan turned on for noise or even a TV set on any channel to help some people to be able to sleep.

In that sense, analog imperfections adds that "grit" which makes some people more comfortable. It's ASMR for them.

Then MP3s and other compressed file formats came along and blew CDs out of the water.
DebbieGibsonSpectrum.jpg


And we also have the natural evolution of these compressed formats: AAC is a much superior format to MP3. MP3s were never aimed at quality; it was about compression, in a time of slower computers with limited disk space and memory, and slow internet bandwidths. MP3s clips and chunks out lots of information for the sake of size. Better algorithms have been made since. As seen above... while the frequencies that have been chopped off from the MP3 file aren't exactly frequencies where music is prevalent or even within hearing range, for the purist, and for archival purposes, it is a loss that shouldn't happen.

That being said, I still enjoy lots of 128kbps .mp3s from the early 2000s. :)
 
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Sep 27, 2022 at 11:52 PM Post #3,315 of 3,657
About mp3 128 = me too 😉

A lot to digest, pal (😇) ... But a lot of very interesting things here. 👍
 
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