[bigshot]

These are practical points. He asked why people fight for the right to be wrong. This is why.

 

[gregorio]

I am very interested in the perceptions obtained by people who actually care about audio quality.

Then you’re maybe not be in the right place. Many audiophiles don’t “actually care about audio quality”, most seem to care about brand names and audiophile marketing/reviews more than audio quality. If they did care about audio quality why do they often buy more expensive equipment with lower audio quality, why do they spend so much on things that make no difference to audio quality instead of spending it on things that do?

With all due respect, you do not know me, so I can frankly tell you I do know the difference, as I have vast experience in this.

I don’t know you, which is why I said probably. But even those with home studios, lots of experience and several years of university study in the subject typically need one or more lectures.

Do you think someone living in the mountains, where the air is thinner and oxygen is more scarce than at sea level, would make audible differences, compared to the same setup on sea level?

I think the thinner, colder atmosphere with different humidity/pollution in the mountains would make far more difference in the audible spectrum than skin effect in cables, jitter, fuse direction and a whole range of other things audiophiles go on about.

This is the thing that is hard to grasp. If it is so, then why do people report differences between this and that DAC or Amp ?

Firstly, there are audible differences between certain DACs and amps, but such DACs and amps are very rare. For example certain NOS DACs and certain tube amps. There are also actual differences which result from user error. For example, when comparing and amp with the incorrect power/impedance for a specific HP with one that has the correct power/impedance and there are many other errors, comparing different masters thinking they’re the same and then attributing the difference to something else seems quite common. The rest of the time, people are reporting differences in their experience/perception of listening to those devices, an experience/perception influenced by audiophile marketing/reviews/testimonials. So not actual audible differences but imagined/placebo differences. This is why all these supposed differences disappear under controlled testing.

It seems to be a universal truth in these forums and other audiophile communities that these components sound differently, and we even have loads of reviews comparing them. Is this entirely BS?

Exactly my point, the audiophile community is deliberately closed, as bigshot correctly stated, audio/sound professionals and scientists are deliberately run out of audiophile sites like this one. Either by shills, trolls, hardened audiophiles who brook no questioning of their beliefs and even by the site itself, who don’t want their audiophile advertising revenue impacted. As it’s so closed, it’s largely free to invent whatever BS it wants, with little or no dissent. In general, it’s unwise to mention the audiophile community to professional sound engineers, they’ll at best roll their eyes and at worst laugh at you and treat you like an idiot.

Is it entirely BS? Sometimes but typically it’s not entirely BS and on a very few audio subjects they can be entirely correct. Occasionally I’ve read lengthy audiophile articles on some aspect of audio which are entirely correct but which are actually entirely BS because they’ve omitted one single fact which invalidates the whole thing. Most of the time it’s somewhere between the extremes of correct and entirely BS and it’s very rare to find one that isn’t at least partially BS. With reviews, they’re either directly or indirectly paid for by the manufacturers or otherwise written by someone entirely subject to/biased by the audiophile myths.

Most of this site and pretty much all it’s advertising revenue would simply disappear if audiophile BS were not allowed free rein and refuting it were not effectively banned outside this little sound science corner.

G

 

[cirrus101]

Some people assume that more expensive means that it sounds better.

Since every audio device have their unique look and how the buttons feel to use etc., every audio device has its own user experience, even when they actually have audibly identical sound

Hopefully you're not trying to say that an identical audio file (16/44.1) being played back to an identical output (speakers/HPs) in these:

Will sound the same as with these:

....Are you?

I really hope I am missing something obvious you've mentioned that got past me.

 

[71 dB]

This is the thing that is hard to grasp. If it is so, then why do people report differences between this and that DAC or Amp ? Why different brands and price ranges, supposedly sound like this or that? It seems to be an universal truth in these forums and other audiophile communities that these components sound differently, and we even have loads of reviews comparing them. Is this entirely BS?

It is not hard to grasp if you know how the World and human mind work. This understanding doesn't come without price. It can make people cynical, but at least it gives good immunity toward snake oil.

I believe people get different "feelings" using different amps/dacs/etc. but that is at most very marginally about the sound and mostly about impressions of the product (price, weight, feel of material, brand reputation). For example my home theatre amp when powered on makes a ridiculously loud "snap" sound* when a relay is activated (could be the short circuit protection of speaker output, could be something else). This sound only happens when I power the amp on or off, but it gives me an impression of a VERY powerful amp, because the sound is something you might hear when powering up a powerful factory machine.

* the sound doesn't come from speakers, but from the relay itself and the snap makes the whole amp caging vibrate like a drum!

 

[71 dB]

Hopefully you're not trying to say that an identical audio file (16/44.1) being played back to an identical output (speakers/HPs) in these:

Will sound the same as with these:

....Are you?

I really hope I am missing something obvious you've mentioned that got past me.

I am not talking about speakers. Of course if you play at a level that requires say 10 W of power, a 1 W amp won't do. It will clip like crazy, but if you compare a cheaper 100 W amp to the most expensive 100 W amp, the difference in sound quality is at most very marginal or probably inaudible. As for DACs go, the "pink stuff" have probably almost as good performance.

Your comparison is ridiculous. Those products have COMPLETELY different consumer segments so NOBODY decides between them. Apples and oranges. Sorry.

 

[DaveStarWalker]

This is normal. But making (somewhat) detailed answers takes time. Especially during working hours (and I have a lot of work !!...), and when you have a lot to say, share instead. I am not making this up. I don't have enough imagination for that. I'm just testifying.



Yes, I find this particularly ridiculous ("I am right, you are wrong" type of discussion). It is actually an anti-scientific position. A gimmick.



If one day you can come to France, you are welcome. Like anyone else here. And so yes, I listen to my music in a very controlled environment. What is interesting is that the arrangements have... then... been validated by measurements. That helped to refine things.

But at some point, when you know the sound of real instruments, unamplified, you know how a double bass, a cello and a violin should sound, for example...

In any case, given the amount of money involved, a dedicated and acoustically treated room is a non-negotiable point for me.

I should also point out that cables, and fuses, are the icing on the cake. The system must be perfectly balanced. Otherwise, very high quality cables will bring all the defects of the system to the table.

Finally, what interests me is music, all musics. The gears are only a means, a vehicle for me. That's all it is.



Very good points. I think you are right. At least, I share that opinion.



There is no "final solution" (unfortunate expression), but one thing I am sure of is that we must always think in terms of "systems". A cable by itself has "no sound". A cable is only as good as the devices it connects to. And so that's where the real difficulties start, because you have to look for synergies.

Finally, never forget that in a system, or a chain, these are the weakest elements that impose their limitations on the other elements. And so this is particularly true with cables, in my experience.



These are the basics, yes.



Yes and no. Let's say that there are general rules established.



But then there are, I am sure, many special cases. And analogue audio cables are one of them. Indeed, at the very least, we are talking about a bandwidth of 20 to 20 khz (in fact much more), frequency transmission groups, numerous pollutions (magnetic, triboelectric, vibratory, etc...), signals whose useful dynamics can be very important, in short, really complex and delicate signals, weak and strong currents.

Another element that is often overlooked is having compatible input and output impedances between devices. The cable itself must have a stable impedance.



Sorry, but there is no such thing as "best cable" ever. It's all about synergies. Also, the more "neutral", "transparent", "balanced" your system is, the easier it is to find the best cables.

Indeed you have some constants that I have noticed :

- Pure copper = "natural" after all.
- Pure silver = transparent, without colours. But sometimes a bit "bland" and lacking a bit of substance.
- Gold = warm, round.
- Rhodium = sharp, sometimes "acid"...
- Palladium = fast, sharp.
- Platinum = textured, uncoloured, more weight (tones).

And therefore all possible permutations, plating, melting, all of that in a same cable, etc.

So it's a complex subject, believe me. Let's make a "simplistic" version. If the system concerned is balanced, 'natural', rather realistic in itself (this is the most complicated to achieve = no systematism) :

- Best interconnect = pur silver, litz braiding and individual isolation, very thin conductors (like hairs). XLR plugs pur gold plated copper (noetech). For RCA, Eichmann silver bullet, or copper bullet. Cryogenic treatement is a very good move too. What is very important is to take into account the vibratory phenomena. This is very important. Because we are dealing with complex, subtle, delicate mechanical and electroacoustic environment and connexions. Properly shielded cables (blackest background, best noise rejection). Active or passive shielding ? Mine are passive.

- Best HP Loudspeaker = pur copper (the purest as it is possible ; but "purest means with selectionned impurities... iron or nickel residues for example, this is not the same thing.). The surface finishing of the individual litz wires must have a mirror polishing quality. The current is always flowing at the periphery of the conductors. Forks have the best contact. Pure copper or pure silver are the very best (no plating). Cryogenic treatement is a very good move too. What is very important is to take into account the vibratory phenomena. This is very important. Because we are dealing with complex, subtle, delicate mechanical and electroacoustic environment and connexions.. Of course, you also need cables that can carry the necessary amount of current, especially if the speakers are difficult (heavy loads). Properly shielded cables (blackest background, best noise rejection). Active or passive shielding ? Mine are passive.

Ideally, no "classic" tin soldering for for the internal mounting of the plugs but high-pressure crimping or plasma-sealed material mixtures.



Yes they are, and it is just mindblowing as I think... But this is an another subject, and an other icing on the cake.

Finally, there is the question of the power supply... which is the most important. But here I hesitate to go into details. I don't want to summon the Kraken too !

Quickly = dedicated line, no inverters (not fast enough for power calls), no batteries...

And as for the power cables... there is also a lot to say.


Hi Cirrus101,

I will replay in your original message. It is more convenant, I guess.
My pleasure.

Hi cirrus101,

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/how...ke-a-difference.481385/page-218#post-17165112

Interested by the answer ?

 

[DaveStarWalker]

It is not hard to grasp if you know how the World and human mind work. This understanding doesn't come without price. It can make people cynical, but at least it gives good immunity toward snake oil.

I believe people get different "feelings" using different amps/dacs/etc. but that is at most very marginally about the sound and mostly about impressions of the product (price, weight, feel of material, brand reputation). For example my home theatre amp when powered on makes a ridiculously loud "snap" sound* when a relay is activated (could be the short circuit protection of speaker output, could be something else). This sound only happens when I power the amp on or off, but it gives me an impression of a VERY powerful amp, because the sound is something you might hear when powering up a powerful factory machine.

* the sound doesn't come from speakers, but from the relay itself and the snap makes the whole amp caging vibrate like a drum!

It is your feelings that you are expressing here.

Also, according to your testimony, you may feel like you have a very powerful amp, or you may actually have a very powerful amp.

Mine for example, their current power is not an "impression" at all...

 

[cirrus101]

Exactly my point, the audiophile community is deliberately closed, as bigshot correctly stated, audio/sound professionals and scientists are deliberately run out of audiophile sites like this one.

Which is why I've steered clear from places like this for decades, lol.


I just want to wrap this topic, but one last thing:
It seems we've run into some kind of contradiction here.
I had mentioned that most audio industry evolved on profits, to which bigshot annoyingly said that this is "laughable". I quote:

your quote claiming that progress in home audio has only been in profitability is laughable

Then goes on to say audio perfection was the goal since the 1920s and that mankind has only worked toward achieving its pinnacle ever since until we finally got to the invention of the CD:

They scientifically defined audible transparency in the 1920s and worked to make recording and playback exceed that threshold.

However, some posts later, we go back into saying that the audio industry is mostly based on BS and sales pitches:

they believe what the used car salesman tells them because it appeals to their ego and status.

It is not hard to grasp if you know how the World and human mind work. This understanding doesn't come without price. It can make people cynical, but at least it gives good immunity toward snake oil.

Well. Profitability or Noble science goals? You must decide what's the story.
Or at least we are talking of two different things; the scientific world of audio, and the audio industry, if there is any distinction.

Your comparison is ridiculous. Those products have COMPLETELY different consumer segments so NOBODY decides between them.

It is meant to be ridiculous. As ridiculous as it could be! Because despite that fact, the items shown do have the capability of audio playback, which is all that matters in the comparison I was trying to make.

Interested by the answer ?

I am sorry pal, but that wasn't really digestible.

 

[71 dB]

It is your feelings that you are expressing here.

Yes, because I have intellectual honesty to admit what I feel are my feelings and not a universal truth. How about you?

Also, according to your testimony, you may feel like you have a very powerful amp, or you may actually have a very powerful amp.

Testimony? I am not making any claims about the power of my amp. It is powerful enough for ME with ease, but someone else may need 10 times more power my amp has to offer. How ppowerful my amp really is is irrelevant in this context. My point was the "snap" sound might give impression of power.

Mine for example, their current power is not an "impression" at all...

Power requirements vary a lot. In a small room using sensitive speakers 1 W might be all you need, while someone else may need 200 W. The difference between 1 and 200 W is "only" 23 dB.

 

[cirrus101]

II believe people get different "feelings" using different amps/dacs/etc. but that is at most very marginally about the sound and mostly about impressions of the product (price, weight, feel of material, brand reputation). For example my home theatre amp when powered on makes a ridiculously loud "snap" sound* when a relay is activated (could be the short circuit protection of speaker output, could be something else). This sound only happens when I power the amp on or off, but it gives me an impression of a VERY powerful amp, because the sound is something you might hear when powering up a powerful factory machine.

Personally, I came here because I have tried a Cirrus Logic DAC for the first time and it really was mindblowing how could such a small change make such a difference. Hence my username. Was it all placebo? Gosh, reading these topics and posts is like self-gaslighting.

 

[cirrus101]

I think the thinner, colder atmosphere with different humidity/pollution in the mountains would make far more difference in the audible spectrum than skin effect in cables, jitter, fuse direction and a whole range of other things audiophiles go on about.

Very interesting.

 

[DaveStarWalker]

Yes, because I have intellectual honesty to admit what I feel are my feelings and not a universal truth. How about you?


Testimony? I am not making any claims about the power of my amp. It is powerful enough for ME with ease, but someone else may need 10 times more power my amp has to offer. How ppowerful my amp really is is irrelevant in this context. My point was the "snap" sound might give impression of power.


Power requirements vary a lot. In a small room using sensitive speakers 1 W might be all you need, while someone else may need 200 W. The difference between 1 and 200 W is "only" 23 dB.

- For your first answer : so I am. I am only talking about my experience, empirical and pragmatical ways.
- For your second answer : you are talking about a "snap" , etc... What is the current capacity of your gears ? And which loudspeakers do you use ?
- For your last answer : yes indeed. But a confortable power reserve is a good thing too. And you have to consider the low and angled impedances, and the damping factor as well. About the damping factor, a high damping factor isn't necessarily a good thing.

This is all about synergies between your components.

Always think as a whole system.

 

[DaveStarWalker]

I am sorry pal, but that wasn't really digestible.

You make me sad.

About what?

I though it is a very (very) simplistic answer.

 

[71 dB]

Well. Profitability or Noble science goals? You must decide what's the story.
Or at least we are talking of two different things; the scientific world of audio, and the audio industry, if there is any distinction.

Amps and DACs have been perfected in audible sense years (decades) ago. Sound science is studying things that are not perfected such as spatial audio with headphones.

It is meant to be ridiculous. As ridiculous as it could be! Because despite that fact, the items shown do have the capability of audio playback, which is all that matters in the comparison I was trying to make.

Nobody says ANY device with audio playback capability has audibly identical sound! That said, the DAC performance in your purposedly ridiculous example is surprisingly similar thanks to the science of perfecting DAC technology allowing good performance in TOYS using the cheapest DAC ships.

 

[DaveStarWalker]

@cirrus101

Oups, some sentences where duplicated! It is fixed.