[wolkegeist]

EST only use till now in my setup is to prevent roll off in treble region


New Build

Woofer
CI-22955 + 10ohms
HODTEC-31230 series + zobel
zobel
Cz=1uF
Rz=203.5 ohms

These two driver shares the tube
14mm length
damper at the end(keep dampers 1mm distance away from end of the tube)
damper is Single Yellow




Tweeter and Full range
ED-29689 center tap + 2uF High pass
RAB32063(The one which doesn't have a vent) + zobel
zobel
Cz=5uF
Rz= ~32.125 ohms

12mm length
both driver share the same tube
White damper(same at the end with 1mm distance clearance for safety, damper popping inside ear)


All drivers in parallel

Nice. Could you tell us how does it sound?

 

[dhruvmeena96]

Nice. Could you tell us how does it sound?

I updated the build

And second, it is a custom build series.
Tuning is for custom shell.

It sounds like it can dig as deep as you can think and imagine in bass without boost of any kind. Its flat bass going down(slightly nudge to give bass a body). It is fast, taut and well controlled/mannered with a very huge extension.

This sounds more like speakers rather than IEM and portrays a lot bigger sense of space than Andromeda even though it has less air. Things sound grandiose and larger than life on mids.

Will be thinking of adding tweeter in future


Flat impedance ratio is maintained


Do adjust ED29689 tube as I feel there is some cancellation in treble intersection to high treble

 

[vladstef]

When you cross a tweeter, you see the frequency going at 0Hz side(I mean the left side of FR chart) not toward the upper side. Same with the woofer.

I meant octave on the low frequency side and EST cannot do lower frequency at all. Distortion rise become so significant that it shuts lower frequency it self(I mean upper mids in simple terms).

I get what you are saying but there just isn't a way to have a perfect high pass. I've mentioned here before about how I use swfk and that is to use extremely low capacitors for high pass - 0.16uF or even 0.11uF for swfk. It actually still plays 5kHz and above and very strongly with regular peaks. However, it cuts it quite well below 5kHz to the point where the speaker pretty much isn't playing anything around 2-3kHz. I don't quite fully understand why swfk still plays 5kHz with 0.11uF but it just does (tested with Bellsing swfk and ceramic smd capacitors).

Sonion shows how impedance of EST changes with 1uF and it appears a bit different than what I belive swfk does, but there could be some chance that it behaves in similar fashion. I'd legit start with something like this: 0.22/0.16/0.11uF with EST + ED/RAB/RAF or something else that can do a solid mid range, probably with brown/red damping. If it's hissing, slowly add light damping to EST (if it behaves ok with them). In theory, this should be a standard BA mid range with better treble extension. All of this might be very crazy, I still haven't had the chance of playing with an EST.

 

[dhruvmeena96]

I get what you are saying but there just isn't a way to have a perfect high pass. I've mentioned here before about how I use swfk and that is to use extremely low capacitors for high pass - 0.16uF or even 0.11uF for swfk. It actually still plays 5kHz and above and very strongly with regular peaks. However, it cuts it quite well below 5kHz to the point where the speaker pretty much isn't playing anything around 2-3kHz. I don't quite fully understand why swfk still plays 5kHz with 0.11uF but it just does (tested with Bellsing swfk and ceramic smd capacitors).

Sonion shows how impedance of EST changes with 1uF and it appears a bit different than what I belive swfk does, but there could be some chance that it behaves in similar fashion. I'd legit start with something like this: 0.22/0.16/0.11uF with EST + ED/RAB/RAF or something else that can do a solid mid range, probably with brown/red damping. If it's hissing, slowly add light damping to EST (if it behaves ok with them). In theory, this should be a standard BA mid range with better treble extension. All of this might be very crazy, I still haven't had the chance of playing with an EST.

SWFK plays 5kHz because it has peak at 4kHz according to Knowles.
If you cross it, the peak will have electrically less damping, causing the crossover to not work properly.
Due to 4kHz peak, 5kHz is preserved when you cross



first-order filter doesn't attenuate as abruptly as high-order filters, a driver used with a first-order crossover has to exhibit good performance two octaves beyond the specified crossover point--i.e., in a two-way speaker with a 2.3-kHz crossover point, a tweeter must be able to handle signals as low as 575 Hz, and a woofer must be able to handle signals as high as 9.2 kHz

This is what I mean

 

[vladstef]

SWFK plays 5kHz because it has peak at 4kHz according to Knowles.
If you cross it, the peak will have electrically less damping, causing the crossover to not work properly.
Due to 4kHz peak, 5kHz is preserved when you cross



first-order filter doesn't attenuate as abruptly as high-order filters, a driver used with a first-order crossover has to exhibit good performance two octaves beyond the specified crossover point--i.e., in a two-way speaker with a 2.3-kHz crossover point, a tweeter must be able to handle signals as low as 575 Hz, and a woofer must be able to handle signals as high as 9.2 kHz

This is what I mean

I understand the logic of higher order crossover but I'd point out that there is a reason why you pretty much never see it in IEMs like phasing issues, number of components, fact that all modern drivers are full range with very consistent distortion for the full range of sound and probably more. However, Sonion doesn't provide THD graphs, not even numbers for EST, which is very interesting. You might be onto something here, something that might make higher order high pass a very logical fix.

 

[dhruvmeena96]

I understand the logic of higher order crossover but I'd point out that there is a reason why you pretty much never see it in IEMs like phasing issues, number of components, fact that all modern drivers are full range with very consistent distortion for the full range of sound and probably more. However, Sonion doesn't provide THD graphs, not even numbers for EST, which is very interesting. You might be onto something here, something that might make higher order high pass a very logical fix.

That is why EST ain't a replacement for SWFK. Even SWFK can go low on full range. EST can't.. It distorts

Issue 1
EST will start crackling hard(did that in burst impulse) on 1kHz. And signal after 1kHz is non identifiable by ears, even if machine threshold for distortion is not still there.
Issue 2
EST has different resonances as electrostic like to be open from everyside whereas sonion made it 4th order bandpass(enclosed diaphragm with small vent). This makes it to force to release some more energy on low end which makes it distort and electrostatic doesn't like distortion.

 

[dhruvmeena96]

EST only use till now in my setup is to prevent roll off in treble region


New Build

Woofer
CI-22955 + 10ohms
HODTEC-31230 series + zobel
zobel
Cz=1uF
Rz=203.5 ohms

These two driver shares the tube
14mm length
damper at the end(keep dampers 1mm distance away from end of the tube)
damper is Single orange

Can try yellow and red too




Tweeter and Full range
ED-29689 center tap + 2uF High pass
Update
RAB is removed, as it is unneeded, this setup works actually better even though Impedance is now a little swingy(still tight, but not near straight line)
zobel
Cz=5uF
Rz= ~32.125 ohms

12mm length
both driver share the same tube
Brown damper(same at the end with 1mm distance clearance for safety, damper popping inside ear)


All drivers in parallel


I am still experimenting

Update: the subbass was too much in older design. And I am an Indian and Indian are crazy bass head by genes. And I find bass too much

So update

DTEC30265 in series + zobel + 10ohms
Cz=1uF +470nF in parallel(1.47uF)
Rz= 110ohms

CI-22955 + 10ohms

Both share tube
14mm
Damper is Red at the end



ED29689x2 parallel Half Tap + 2ohms + 1.5uF
Brown damper
12mm tube


Woofer 1 -CI
Woofer 2 -DTEC
Tweeter - 2xED

5drivers neutral signature with slightly boosted and heavily extended bass frequencies

 

[wolkegeist]

Thanatos
I remember that
Man, while seeing is work log on this build, I was laughing when I saw him extend the shell a little bit to fit those driver

He won the driver count wars a long ago(if we don't consider CTZ42BA)



He used RAB, SWFK and DTEC
I also use these drivers.....hahahahha
These are one of the best Knowles driver out there


@wolkegeist

Use CI-22960 with single yellow damper(no L-pad needed)
And you are done with lovely bass.

And cross the EST a little bit more higher in frequency because MASM3 has enough treble and crossing it lower may lead to treble heat zone

Oh I forgot to mention, it’s E25ST, not the electrostatic ones.

 

[wolkegeist]

@dhruvmeena96
Hey I drew the circuit of your latest design, is it something like this?

 

[dhruvmeena96]

@dhruvmeena96
Hey I drew the circuit of your latest design, is it something like this?

everything is correct

just dont add two DTEC
it is single DTEC
i mean to say, that internally, make them in series

 

[wolkegeist]

@dhruvmeena96
Hey I drew the circuit of your latest design, is it something like this?

everything is correct

just dont add two DTEC
it is single DTEC
i mean to say, that internally, make them in series

Oh I just wanna make it specific, because I know that DTEC has 2 drivers

Anyway, does anyone tried Noble K10 design? I figured out that it only use CI 22955 and TWFK 30017.
2 CI for bass
4 TWFK for mid and treble
I’m not sure about crossover tho

 

[dhruvmeena96]

@dhruvmeena96
Hey I drew the circuit of your latest design, is it something like this?

Oh I just wanna make it specific, because I know that DTEC has 2 drivers

Anyway, does anyone tried Noble K10 design? I figured out that it only use CI 22955 and TWFK 30017.
2 CI for bass
4 TWFK for mid and treble
I’m not sure about crossover tho

Naaahh, that ain't it

2xCI22955
2xTWFK30017
2xTWFK23991

But why go for Noble K10. When you can try on your own with new design and crossing points

 

[wolkegeist]

Naaahh, that ain't it

2xCI22955
2xTWFK30017
2xTWFK23991

But why go for Noble K10. When you can try on your own with new design and crossing points

Just curious, because there’s a drama about one of vietnamese labs using bellsing drivers for an astronomical 1000$ K10 clone that sounds terrible. My friend challenged me to make it for 300$ lolz. But I’d probably gonna save up for the new design.

 

[dhruvmeena96]

Just curious, because there’s a drama about one of vietnamese labs using bellsing drivers for an astronomical 1000$ K10 clone that sounds terrible. My friend challenged me to make it for 300$ lolz. But I’d probably gonna save up for the new design.

When you parallel FK of 30017 and 23991, you get 20ohms

And same with WBFK, 10ohms

Whereas single 30017 FK is 25 ohms and WBFK is 12.5ohms

So quad TWFK hybrid(2x30017 and 2x23991) FK lies in 10ohm and WBFK lies in 5ohms
Which is more ideal as you are getting near to SWFK impedance(6.25ohms) but double amount of drivers.(this leads to lower treble distortion as power required to power is shared between 4 treble drivers)
Same with FK


But if you go Quad TWFK30017, FK will lie into 6.25ohms and WBFK will lie into 3.125ohms.

Here you have low impedance which means the amp can pump power easily. This is what we don't want. This can lead to higher dB and more hiss prominent with distortion can creep in when BA hits power limit compared to above.


Dont ask me the crossover as I don't know it. And let be it with noble as it is amazing crossover which should be respected.

I may be guessing wrong TWFK too..... Let's not talk on this topic as it is not appreciated. Talking about other iem and the
their crossover.

And if the person can clone, then ask him to make one himself. Why da faq is he cloning.

 

[tomekk]

So quad TWFK hybrid(2x30017 and 2x23991) FK lies in 10ohm and WBFK lies in 5ohms
Which is more ideal as you are getting near to SWFK impedance(6.25ohms) but double amount of drivers.(this leads to lower treble distortion as power required to power is shared between 4 treble drivers)
Same with FK

That's what's so great. Recently I needed a 150W power supply for a 30' Apple Cinema Display. Google search: Kirchhoff's first law. I connected two power supplies who had 24V/3A in parallel and received 150W of power. Cinema Display works. You can't experience this without DIY life.