[SunByrne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder Some people on this forum call Bose products (especially a particular headphone) absolute crap, which basically means a 'rip off', regarding their high price (which is always duly noted). I don't see anyone complaining about these kind of statements. Why not?

This strikes me as an extremely germane point. In fact, I'm pretty sure I have seen people openly call Bose products rip-offs. Oddly, this was not followed by a lengthy discussion of how the person making the statement could have been more diplomatic or whatever. Moderators have not lept to the defense of the forum's integrity and requested more mature terminology, etc., in those cases.

While I do think "rip-off" is a somewhat unfortunate choice of terms by the OP and this thread in general probably would have gone off better without it, it does cause me to wonder why it is that this label being applied to an RS product creates a huge stir but applying the same label to a product from a different manufacturer, whoever that may be, doesn't. I've never seen a mod explain that people manage to convey negative feelings toward a product "without using words like 'rip-off', which seem to convey a misplaced hostility and are unnecessary" when it's Bose that's under attack, yet multiple mods have felt it necessary to weigh in on this thread. Why is that?

It's not, of course, that I'm trying to defend or attack Bose--like many, I believe Bose products are a ri...err, don't provide good value for the money relative to competing products. Nor am I defending or attacking Ray or his products.

What I am trying to do is understand why it is that the playing field doesn't appear to be level. I'm not suggesting there really is a "dark cloud," but given the frequency of negative comments of the "rip-off" class directed toward other products with not even a nod and the amount of heat generated by one such comment toward RS, I don't think it's a stretch to think that such a cloud might be perceived by some.

We now return you to your regularly-schedule discussion of the PINT. I guess I should have gotten one when I had the chance...

 

[Jahn]

if we compare the Bose Triport to the Hornet, it's not a completely identical grouping of negative comments against them to substantiate using the phrase "rip-off."

1) Price/Performance ratio. Can it be argued that both the Triport and Hornet deliver acceptable SQ but for the suggested retail price and below, there are better options. It's fair to say that P/P ratio is a fair measurement to determine if something is a "rip-off."

IMHO, the Hornet's price is in the same realm as the AE-1 and the PRII, both of which don't lap the Hornet, but rather just offer a different signature. You can argue that all three are overpriced, but again that's a matter of opinion.

2) Manufacturer Intent. Can it be argued that Bose and RSA Audio are aware of the P/P ratio and yet intentionally continue to sell at a higher price point to meet inflated profit margins? It's fair to say that Manufacturer Intent is a fair measurement to determine if something is a "rip-off."

IMHO, in no way is Ray trying to squeeze cash out of his consumers, and it is his intent to offer the Hornet for what he really believes it is worth, and not necessarily what he could get for it on the market. But of course you are free to disagree.

3) Quality Control. Can it be argued that the life cycle of the Triport and Hornet are severely truncated for the amount of money spent, compared to similar products at their price range? Quality Control is also a fair measurement for if something is a "rip-off," but this is the one factor that I have to say "In my Not So Humble Opinion."

Triports are flimsy and break and are just plain Cheap in terms of build quality, at least for the price. Hornets, no matter the content or cost of materials, are of a level of fit and finish that they could probably survive a dropped bomb and look good doing it. Plus, it doesn't look externally cheap either, which helps with appearances of value as well. Therefore, the Triport can be measured under the "rip-off" measurement with parties falling on one side or the other, but for the Hornet, I don't think you can really even make this argument.

 

[elrod-tom]

SunByrne,

Well, I DO think that we do a pretty good job of telling folks to present their arguments in a civil manner, generally speaking.

I won't speak for everyone, but from my perspective the reason a point was made about civility in this particular instance (and has been made in others like it) has to do with the stink that it raised amongst the membership in general. The comments were made by me (you did quote me) in a general attempt to calm down a thread that was on the way to becoming a flame war.

I suppose that one reason why you can't seem to recall ever hearing such things said when similar comments were made about Bose is that I don't recall anyone ever standing up and calling ******** about it. Unfortunately, there seems to be general agreement amongst the membership that they represent a poor value. Perhaps if the membership were suitably upset about it, we'd have to step in and remind everyone of their manners when discussing Bose. That's not to say that makes it right, or even consistent, but it doesn't make it a conspiracy either, now does it?

We should also remember that ours is a very small industry. As such, there is a certain human touch involved with our dealings with our smaller manufacturers. A lot of folks here know Ray Samuels, like him, and don't appreciate the tone that was being levelled in his direction in this thread. It clearly struck many of our members as personalized and over the top. (BTW - In the interest of full disclosure, you may number me among those who felt that way if you like...I know Ray and like him, and I thought the choice of words to be poor).

I feel safe in saying that we have a number of other manufacturers that have made an effort to meet a number of the members, and are similarly well liked. That tends to cause folks to get a bit more involved in the discussion when (as in this case) it turns less than civil. I doubt that anyone here knows Mr. Bose, and as such we don't see the same reaction.

Call it human nature...doesn't make it consistent or right, but if there's no flame war there's no urgent need to remind everyone to be nice, now is there?

 

[markl]

SunByrne,
Not a mod, but I think the answer is really very simple and not murky or nefarious. People know Ray personally. He goes to all the meets, participates frequently on the forum, and he's a small company serving a small niche market (us!). You interact with him personally when you buy one of his products, go to a meet, or even read these forums. We know him and know him to be a stand-up guy, so when someone says "rip-off" to me, it's totally understandable if there's some cautioning going on. It's a small community after all. Ray's products are held in high regard by many Members, and many many more who don't own them have at least heard them, so if they were so awful or a "rip-off", it surely would have come out long ago. Now here we have one data point, someone with an opinion. He likes X better than Y, but that doesn't make Y a "rip-off", particularly when many people agree it's a fine product.

And I think that all conspiracy theorists should simply check the profiles of all the mods, and I think you'll see very little in common. There's no monolith "protecting" this or that product IMHO.

So, with Ray, there's a face to the name. Sony or Bose, those are nameless faceless ultra-mega-global-corps, totally impersonal. Nothing we say here about them, no matter how outrageous, is even the slightest threat to their continuing business, it's just more internet hot air. I see nothing wrong with giving small mom-and-pops that serve the community specifically a little extra consideration, when you consider any old anonymous poster with an agenda (it's not just the mods you people should be suspicious of, IMHO, it goes both ways) can pollute the forums with unfounded accusations, libel and so on.

My policy, as if anyone cares

, when it comes to reviews and getting review samples is that I will not be reporting on products I receive that I simply don't like. I have no interest in spending my valuable time evaluating a bad product that didn't work for me and then doing one of my write-ups expounding on all the ways it disappointed me. That "policy" applies to small niche makers. I don't feel any one negative reaction should be responsible for "killing" any product or harming the livelihood of any maker. Why would I want to do that?

As for mass-market stuff like the abominable Sony Qualia

, I have no qualms about detailing my negative reaction. Sony will still be there tomorrow and it won't be on my head that they went down the tubes.


In the end, no one was censored, no one was banned. Just cautioned to exercise a little judgement, that's all. I still see no "cloud".

 

[wakeride74]

Quote:

I can't even hear a difference between my Marantz speaker amp and my DIY amp

That is why you fail

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunByrne This strikes me as an extremely germane point. In fact, I'm pretty sure I have seen people openly call Bose products rip-offs. Oddly, this was not followed by a lengthy discussion of how the person making the statement could have been more diplomatic or whatever. Moderators have not lept to the defense of the forum's integrity and requested more mature terminology, etc., in those cases....

I think I know why. Let's be honest and realistic here: Had someone made similar comments ("robbery" and "rip off") about products by any of the manufacturers that have a comparatively more significant relationship with the community here (like Singlepower, Meier, HeadAmp, HeadRoom, etc.)--folks who make at least some part of their livelihoods serving this community (compartively much more than, say, Bose)--some Members (Moderators or not) would have made similar responses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunByrne ....yet multiple mods have felt it necessary to weigh in on this thread. Why is that?...

Now maybe I haven't looked closely enough, but the first time a Moderator waded into this thread to post was at post #92. Read the post, and some of the accusatory posts before it, and tell me what he was responding to didn't warrant a response. This is exactly what a couple of antagonists wanted to see--to force Moderators to respond to being called STASI, and strong suggestions that this thread was on the verge of deletion, which it was not (thanks, markl, for talking some sense amidst the absurdity of the few who truly do need foil hats)--and so, of course, Moderators respond; and, sorry, SunByrne, but you fell for it. Read the next Moderator's post. Read the whole thread again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunByrne ....What I am trying to do is understand why it is that the playing field doesn't appear to be level...

Publicly accuse Tyll, Justin, Mikhail, or Jan of ripping off people or "robbery"--to the very community that makes up a core group of their customers and livelihood--and I can assure you you'd get similar responses from many here. You and I both know it, as do any long-time members here. Again, read the threat once more through--there were plenty of responses before post #92.

 

[immtbiker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunByrne ...Moderators have not lept to the defense of the forum's integrity and requested more mature terminology, etc., in those cases.

Had a Bose thread which contained the words "rip-off" and other negative connotations, turned into a 107 post thread with two camps starting to get personal towards each other, with finger pointing and accusations flying about, then moderation would have been necessary at that point, too. Please feel free to show me a thread like that. I don't recall seeing one but then again, I am not super-human.

Let us not forget that the moderators were members before becoming a mod, and are still first and utmost a member. It is easy to play armchair quarterback and talk about how you feel that maintaining a decent forum that you wouldn't mind your mother or daughter reading, is not on a level playing field. We do the best we can, try to uphold the TOU and enjoy participating in discussions about audio. No matter what any oversight committee does, in any environment, there will always be people who don't like all of the decisions.

Could you imagine what this world would be like, if everyone was amicable and there was no hate, and colors of a shirt or skin didn't bother anyone? It would allow the world a far more productive quality of life, cancer and aids would probably be cured and most people would die happy. But it's not like that, and there are people who strive to induce aggravation in others because it gives them some sort of twisted joy. There are many members on this forum which are like that which causes the need for moderation and I assure you, if any moderators were like that, then then they wouldn't be moderators for long. That's why there are 2 dozen mods...to keep an even keel. If you see 4 mods voicing their opinion in a matter, it's not a conspiracy, it's 4 members who are trying to keep a thread alive, while at the same time sharing their opinion of what they think is right or wrong.

An amp was purchased...a member found an amp that suited him/her better and that member was guaranteed a full refund. Talking about why someone feels that one amp is better than another is why we are here. Saying that a manufacturer has done someone an injustice by charging a price deemed fit by the manufacturer is slanderous.

How much do you think it costs to make a Manley Steelhead or a pair of Wilson Alexandrias? If you feel it's worth the money and can afford it, then power to you. If you don't, buy something else. There must be people who feel it's worth it, otherwise those companies would be out of business.

You can buy a full blown 2.4M dual core processor computer with almost every accessory possible for about $1100 (think of all the things that are involved inside the computer, flat panel, etc.), but a leather couch from Maurice Vallency can cost you ~$4500. Are they comparable? No. Is the computer a better value for what you get, bang for the buck? That is up to every single person on this earth to decide. As long as you have food, water and shelter...everthing else is cream.


*EDIT- Sorry for any repetition from the last 5 posts...I am a slow typer. But it proves even more that there are similar beliefs amongst people who have not discussed this and were typing at the same time.

 

[kugino]

ahem...anyone notice the rise in PINT posts in the FS section since this thread? i feel like i could sell my PINT/hf-1 combo for a nice little sum now

(but you'll have to pry them both from my rigor mortised hands...)

 

[socrates63]

Well, at least the price hasn't shot off the roof yet. People still asking for under $100.

 

[K2Grey]

Well, I just want to get rid of my PINT since I'm not using it, since I don't feel its worth it to carry it around. So that's why I posted a thread in F/S forums since I thought this was the appropriate time.

And no, this is NOT advertising in the wrong forum, since I already have a prospective buyer, I am just commenting on why there has been a rise in posts

 

[quicksilver96]

Wow, nobody has said anything bad about the PINT at all in this thread. So I guess I'll be the first. Battery consumption with AD8397s is subpar at best. Out of a pair of 9.6V NiMH rated at 250mAh, I get slightly less than 4.5 hours total play time. Out of my PPAS (portable smd PPA V1), I get a good 13+ hrs. Also, if you plan on using while plugged in, you should have a high quality DC source or your output quality will suffer. The PINT design, due to its portability, has no provisions for PS regulation so your choice should be an isolated, non-switching, and regulated - this and more can be read on Tangent's PINT website. The section about power supplies is under "Parts Selection". If you are just going to plug in for charging, pretty much any cheapo wall wart will be fine given the right current/voltage ratings.

Everyone here is impressed with the sound already so I won't rehash what the PINT provides. I know there aren't many in circulation at this moment but if you get a chance, you all should give the PPAS a listen. The schematic is very close to the original PPA v1, only the buffers are buf634s rather than intersils and there is only room for 1 buffer per channel. Other than that, it has a similar isolating low current power section for the opamps, class-A biasing, and true Jung multiloop topology. There is also a jumper position so the buf634s can be placed in high bandwidth mode at the expense of battery life. Current consumption w/ the high BW jumper out is a miserly 16mA at idle compared to my PINT's 45mA. I wrote a A/B sound comparison on the two in PPAS Build Thread for those that are interested.

 

[NiceCans]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quicksilver96 Battery consumption with AD8397s is subpar at best. Out of a pair of 9.6V NiMH rated at 250mAh, I get slightly less than 4.5 hours total play time.

This is a fact!
I was fortunate to have had the 8937's replaced because I wanted a warmer sound, and so discovered that with the LM6172 the battery life more than doubled.

Sound like the PPAs thread may be a worthwhile read, thanks Quicksilver.

 

[kugino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiceCans This is a fact! I was fortunate to have had the 8937's replaced because I wanted a warmer sound, and so discovered that with the LM6172 the battery life more than doubled. Sound like the PPAs thread may be a worthwhile read, thanks Quicksilver.

which is why i prefer using the PINT as part of my computer rig rather than a primary portable amp.

 

[digitalcat]

The PPAs looks great! I think Xin may have done similar surface-mount work but his supermacro III probably just shares some elements with the PPA. I'm very interested in the sound of this amp. From what people say about the PINT, it's possible that the miniature of an existing design could sound better than the original.

 

[NiceCans]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitalcat From what people say about the PINT, it's possible that the miniature of an existing design could sound better than the original.

Aren't the miniature components just smaller instances of the same?
Or does this imply that more than just the package size changes?