[tyrion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkam Ray, I'm not really sure why you think criticizing a manufacturers product isn't wise. The reason head-fi exists to discuss this hobby and that includes both negative and postive posts about products. If you took his rip-off comments as bashing well then thats on you. It was a criticism and you should be able to deal with that. If anything I thought he used the term "rip-off" in conjunction with the Hornet to help display how much of a bargain the PINT is. I like how everyone including the manufacturer jumps on the original poster. Overreacting as usual. Just grow up and let the guy state his opinion. If the OP thinks the Hornet is a rip-off then fine for him and for his situation it is. If you disagree with him them thats fine as well and debate that topic all you want. Don't jump all over the guy and criticize him for being too harsh and using a poor choice of words. Getting that upset over semantics is stupid and childish at best. I think this is the perfect time to link to the you are not your gear thread.

If you read Ray's post, he had no problem with criticism. He didn't "jump all over the guy". He merely responded to what was said. His post was polite and not angry from my reading. He merely took exception with someone calling his product a "rip off" thus implying that Ray was ripping him off. I think any manufacturer would take exception with that. The "bashing" he was referring to appears to relate to the "rip off" comment. It's one thing to say you prefer one product over another, it's a whole other thing to say his product is a rip off. When Ray shows up at meets, he acts like a participant. Sure he is there to sell but he also has a good time with us while he is there. He isn't some big faceless corporate manufacturer. He is a member of this community and deserves to be treated better as does those other manufacturers that also participate regularly, like Mikhail and lately Craig (Eddie Current).

So now you've called Ray and every person that has defended him "stupid and childish". Perhaps you need to look in the mirror when you say that.

 

[tkam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyrion So now you've called Ray and every person that has defended him "stupid and childish". Perhaps you need to look in the mirror when you say that.

No I said attacking the guy over semantics is stupid and childish. And I really don't think Ray needs any help defending himself.

 

[tyrion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkam No I said attacking the guy over semantics is stupid and childish.

Talk about semantics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkam And I really don't think Ray needs any help defending himself.

Neither does the OP.

 

[KenW]

Elrod...like tkam, I didn't interpret volcom's comments to be malicious. Just a poor choice of terms which some referred to as "slanderous". Personally, I think this has been made far too much of and then sovkiller's comments about Ray "not deserving" this. Deserving what exactly? Again, I'm not trying to beat what should be a dead horse but some are making it seem like Ray is being victimized or treated unfairly and that there's some sinister plot to run down his business. Just thought that was a bit over the top.

I took the post much as tkam did. It's just a matter of one's personal opinion of a products perceived value vs the price being charged. Some will no doubt feel like the hornet represents a true value whereas others will feel like something like the pint represents a better "bang for the buck". Too bad he didn't phrase things that way and all this could have been avoided. Personally, I was happy to see the little pint get some kudos for it's superb price/performance ratio(my opinion and my perception) only to see the thread deteriorate into something less than pleasant.

Just seemed like folks were taking things a bit too seriously and Volcom was getting some heat that really I don't think he deserved. Folks simply took exception about a remark that, again, I don't think was malicious. Speaking of that I was reading the Grado price fixing thread and wondered where the outrage was over a post by wush which states:

Quote:

I don't see why an unwillingness to expand justifies ripping off a sub-set of your customers. I'd have more respect for Grado if they did not sell to Europe at all.

Link to the rip-off quote.

Seems to me that this was somewhat similar and yet, I don't see the response.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KenW Personally, I think this has been made far too much of and then sovkiller's comments about Ray "not deserving" this. Deserving what exactly?

Just to be clear, and that will be my last post in that silly discussion (that IMO should be locked a 100 posts ago) any decent manufacturer, not only Ray, any, deserves respect, to call someone that is ripping people off, saying that one of his products is a rip off was not only a poor choice of words, was simply insulting to Ray, even more while the product is question is owned by hundreds of members and has been accepted and loved by many, many, members, that do not consider it as a "rip off"... And IIRC the market is what stablish the value of a given product, not you or me, so in that case, he was also insulting, by a domino effect, IMO, the choice of others, and calling hundreds of owners fools, that let someone rip them off....

Now is that Pint a better value? Probably, but a better terminated product commercially talking, I strongly doubt that...Even if it is, that does not make the other a "rip off"...In any case he was not ripped off, and Ray refunded him in full, according to what Ray said, and that ended the "rip off" in any case...period...

You have to be very careful while you express yourself in public, specially in a forum where there is no face, no tone of voice, to determine how one given statement was expressed or intended...

Honestly Ray was extremelly polite, if that post was referencing to me pesonally, at this time I would be banned about ten posts ago....


Mods just lock this silly thread that is going nowhere!!!!

 

[dhp]

rather than locking this thread, I'd rather have the last few pages deleted so that the thread can continue

 

[elrod-tom]

KenW,

I sometimes wish that I was moderator at some dinky little website that typically had 2 or 3 members logged on at one time, as it would be much easier to catch everything.

I appreciate your effort to point out an oversite on our part. I mean, I'm sure that's why you brought it up, right? I mean, you're not trying to embarass anyone, right? Just a genuine concern for the civility of the site, and all that....right?

I'll get right on it, though.

We don't always catch 100% of the problems...that requires the help of the membership. When offending posts are reported (like in this thread, for example), it helps the entire community. Unfortunately, nobody has reported anything in that thread yet. But you are right, it's an unfortunate choice of words, and there ought to be a reminder from a moderator (if not the membership in general) that civility is important.

Now, back to my original point:

This thread went off track because a number of folks took issue with a very poor choice of words by the OP, who then started shouting about being banned, threads vanishing, and other such things that have not happened yet. From a distance, it seems like he was looking for a fight with Ray, the moderators, and what not. At the very least, he deserves to be taken to task about all this silliness...don't you think??

 

[KenW]

Elrod...no intent to try and embarrass anyone. From the way I read the two similar comments, I felt that one had more malice in it and felt the post illustrated the difference....or at least it appeared that way to me as I read the two comments. As I said...and I'm being redundant here...I don't think volcom was being mean spirited. Just a poor choice of words and I think we need to give the guy a break. We've all posted things that were poorly stated and thought out at one point or another. Just time to let it go and move on IMO.

 

[Sovkiller]

Why not doing a little homework and clean this thread a little bit and modify a few "offside" posts, and let the discussion and what is pertinent to this excelent DIY design to go on....

 

[immtbiker]

It would be a lot easier if Volcom started a new thread expressing what he likes and dislikes about the Pint and Hornet, and we lock this one. It would be too subjective for anybody to determine what should stay and what should go.

If Volcomjerk wants to start another thread, please PM me and I will lock this thread and redirect it to the new thread and we can have a good conversation about the merits and disadvantages of both without any attacks, and we can go back to being an audio forum and not a personality conflict and we can all go back to being a part of what makes Head-Fi so great.

 

[dr.morton]

I do not believe that a thread like this leads to nothing.
Although I do not agree with volcoms statements, his choice of words or his faulty logic the whole thread let to an interesting debate about pricing policy that is beneficial for all Head-Fiers reading and analyzing each post carefully.

There will always be threads which will eventually lead to a heated debate because it touches a very sensitive topic avoided most of the time.
But they help us evaluate our own points of view.
Closing them just so that nobody gets hurt is not wise IMO because this is not how life works. It also opens up the door to misuse: "Oh, I do not like this thread, I will just have just to provoke some people and the thread will get closed eventually".

 

[Azure]

I just need a little clarification here:

Can we never call a product a "rip-off" here then? What if we say "The Hornet is a rip-off compared to my PINT because the latter offers me superior sound quality for MUCH less; I don't care for the Hornet's extra features and it sounds like a sonic rip-off to me compared to my PINT."

(I used the PINT and The Hornet simply for relevance to this discussion; I have heard neither of these amps and have no valid opinions on their sonic qualities)

If the two amps in question were different, neither of them were made by a manufacturer that sponsors this website, and nobody here knew the manufacturer personally, could you say "rip-off" then? For clarification, by "rip-off" I mean that there is a better product out there for my needs (Based on price and performance; no relation to the ethical practices of the manufacturer).

I think people look into these kinds of comments as being too declaratory and objective (Reminds of me of the first part of Sovkiller's sig...). But I guess we have to take this inconvenience of always including "IMHO," "to me," etc. in order to protect newbie Head-Fiers that might misinterpret impressions.

------
So, the op-amp of choice with the PINT is the LM6172? I'm suddenly interested in getting a PINT but I'd like to know that I get in the same configuration that impressions in this thread are based on. What specific specs should I look out for (Other than op-amps) when looking at PINTs? There are some PINTs in the F/S forum, but I don't know anything about the revision history of this amp (I don't know if I should look for certain model boards, make sure that the amp uses specific parts, etc.).

What are some builders (other than MisterX) that could build me a PINT? Due to the lack of availability I may have to find an alternative; is the price/performance ratio of the Go-Vibe V5 close to the PINT?

Also, could someone explain to me the whole mini^3fied thing with this amp?

 

[elrod-tom]

Azure,

Regarding your question about whether or not one can use the word "rip-off":

It's not so cut and dried as all that. What it comes down to is basic civility. We should all endeavor to communicate in a way that is less combative, respect the opinions of others, and so on. Calling the product of a manufacturer who has been a friend to this site, hobby, and many of its members a rip-off is bound to agitate a lot of folks. A place where this sort of language is used regularly and where it's directed at my friends is not the sort of place I would want to hang out....and I hope others agree with that.

Now, not everyone is going to care for everyone's products. A lot of folks find the DIY project to be a much better value, and would never consider purchasing from one of the major manufacturers. Maybe they don't care for the sonic signature at all. All those things can be said without implying that those manufacturers are ripping someone off.

 

[Teerawit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure Also, could someone explain to me the whole mini^3fied thing with this amp?

Removes caps from the signal path for truer sound, and lowers the noise floor by alot (ie. no hiss).

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teerawit Removes caps from the signal path for truer sound, and lowers the noise floor by alot (ie. no hiss).

No difference in the actual board size? Why exactly is it called mini^3ified?