[Uncle Erik]

Jelly Roll Morton composed music, conducted, arranged music, and was a fine pianist.

Is there a rapper who does anything similar? Go ahead, list some examples.

As I've said before, I've been paying attention to the genre for the better part of 20 years. Back then, my car just had an AM radio and I couldn't afford a new radio, so I'd tune in KDAY in LA. Some of the early stuff was interesting. But then it stagnated and went nowhere. I also lived and worked in South Central Los Angeles for four years. Yes, I understand much of the culture. I also spent several years working a bit in the legal side of the entertainment industry. Yes, including some recognizable rappers. So I've seen the business end, as well.

It's not the culture. I listen to baroque - that's a culture I don't understand. Neither do I much understand the culture around French pop, but I like a bit of it. But the rap culture, which I grew up with and understand, does not produce music I appreciate.

It's not for a lack of effort, either. When I see something highly praised, I check it out. But I keep coming up empty. Like I've said a few times, I don't find anything musically interesting and the lyrics aren't anything special.

I think you're wrong about the topical lyrics. People just are not going to relate a few years on. Make references to pop culture of 2011, and someone in 2035 who was born in 2015 is going to have no idea what those lyrics are talking about. The 2035 listener could go back and do a lot of research to understand 2011 lyrics. But how likely is that? A few music scholars might do it, but do you see average music listeners of 2011 digging deeply into the cultural scene of, say, 1967 to "get" topical references of that era? No. No one cares.

The music that does hold up from 30 or 40 years isn't topical. It uses universal themes that hold up. I just haven't seen much rap/hip hop that uses universal themes. It's either narcissistic or goes on and on about pop culture references.

That's why the genre isn't going to hold up. Would you listen to a 1961 recording about some guy talking about himself and a bunch of minor celebrities and consumer products of that era? How about if that guy didn't play an instrument and more or less talked over 1940s big band records?

Wouldn't be very interesting, would it? Might be worth one listen for the "What, people actually listened to this?" factor. That's how I've felt about the protest songs from the thirties. Sorta historically interesting, but no bearing on my life. And at least those songs had original composition, people playing instruments and actual singing.

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Quote:

 
LMAO thats a mighty big accusation. You make it seem as if some of us have an agenda against rap! I clearly said in my initial posts if people could post stuff that is considered musical, I would reevaluate my stance. Ckaz has posted some good stuff a couple of posts up and there have been other good songs posted as well. Have I completely change my mind? No. Have I ever at any point said that rap/hip hop has no artistic merit? NO! Well waddaya know???
 
Jeez some people are so quick to accuse without really reading what I have written. 
 
 

 
Who says I was accusing you?  You?  I'm pretty sure I've read all the posts here, but I'm definitely sure I wasn't thinking specifically of yours when I wrote that.
 
Seems you ought to be eating your own words...

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Uncle Erik:
 
Yet again, ahem, ahem, ahem, the Beastie Boys...  Or how about Arrested Development? 
 
And we still listen to "White Rabbit" and we still get the era-specific culture references and we still get the drug references...
 
 
 
 
Oh, and one more thing: Where my gerunds at?

 

[Deep Funk]

I hinted at the Beastie Boys but if I want something next level Erykah Badu is - in my opinion - much more interesting...
 
When I listened a more to Hip Hop I would sometimes listen to a Soul of Funk album for variety's sake and I always liked the Soul or Funk album more. These days I would add Country and Jazz to that, even Blues.
 
Even worse in my case, I usually prefer instrumentals and because of that I have this rule: the instrumentals of an (Hip Hop) album have to be good enough on their own as a whole to make the album work.
 
Just an opinion from someone who thinks James Brown & The JB's' "Funky Drummer" is minimalistic groovy perfection. 
 
P.S. The Beastie Boys also made an instrumental album, not bad actually.

 

[jackmccabe]

@Uncle Erik I suggest you look at "A tribe called quest" as they do not just use just 4/4 time and they are actually fairly largely influenced by jazz
Your point about lack of complexity in time signatures is invalid as rap wouldn't make a huge amount of sense if it constantly changed time signatures.
Also from the sounds of it you have never actually heard any highly revered rap as your point about lack of universal references for instance most of The Notorious B.I.G's songs off Ready to die are universal.
 
I think rap and Hip-hop are largely about story telling and you do not seem to understand this. 
There is not a single other genre which I have heard in which an artist lays out such a clear scene.
 
 

 

[Deep Funk]

Agreed on Tribe Called Quest and the argument on story telling. 
 
Story telling in other 'genres' is just as important though. Listen to Kate Bush's "Breathing" and think of something that could happen in Asia in the coming time. 

 

[ThumperSD]

Quote:

Quote:

 

 
Oh please. Music is simply organized sound. Rappers do stuff with rhythms that most musicians can't. If rap isn't music, then drums aren't instruments.
 

Like what?

Can't say I've ever heard a rap/hip hop song in anything other than 4 time. Can you point us to something in another time signature? How about something like polyrhythms and blends of time signatures, like some African drumming does? If you look into that, you'll find them mixing different time signatures, switching up, and creating all sorts of complex rythms. I haven't heard anything remotely like that in rap. If you know of something with complex time signatures, please list it. By the way, you will find complex time signatures in classical, jazz, some rock, and even occasionally in folk music.

Also, mind pointing out some rap/hip hop that has tempo changes? I can't think of any that does. Seems that the tempo always remains constant throughout. No variation.

Compared to genuinely complex rhythms, this is like pouring chocolate sauce over a Twinkie and then insisting that it is equal to a scratch-made soufflé from a classically trained pastry chef.

Further, there's no musical complexity, as I've pointed out earlier. No key changes and you'll only occasionally find a chord change in a sample, which is not original content.

Neither do you find musicianship. Arguably, scratching is a form of playing an instrument, but it's more on the level of playing a kazoo or a washboard. It's not that serious.

Lyrically, you rarely find any depth. Seems a lot of people are deeply impressed by a bunch of references to pop culture and other rappers. The problem with being topical is that it just doesn't hold up. Five years on and the references sound tired and old. Ten years on and new listeners won't get any of the references. Twenty years and they lose all meaning. All the rap out there today will be utterly meaningless to the next generation of listeners.

The genre is dead. When the topical references get stale, there's nothing there for people to appreciate. No musical complexity, no new musical ideas, no complex rhythms, and, well, not much of anything.

I know a handful of kids 12 and under. They don't show much interest in rap. They think it's "old" and just don't relate to it. They might not be representative of all younger listeners, but it is important to note that they respond positively to other older music. They love the more melodic classical pieces, the Beatles, Johnny Cash, Motown, Beach Boys, Pink Floyd, Elvis, rock oldies, and other classics. They haven't been exposed to much jazz, but do love "Time Out" (you'll find some complex time signatures in that, by the way, because that's the point of the album) and a few others. But rap isn't interesting to them.

Give it a generation, and rap will be a footnote, listened to mainly by those who like it now. The lyrics will make it wholly inaccessible to new listeners and there's nothing else compelling about the rest.

There you go with the generalizing again. I thought we already discussed about this in pages 1-2. There are plenty of examples that contradict what you just said
.

 

[ThumperSD]

 
Quote:

Quote:

 

 
Oh please. Music is simply organized sound. Rappers do stuff with rhythms that most musicians can't. If rap isn't music, then drums aren't instruments.
 

Like what?

Can't say I've ever heard a rap/hip hop song in anything other than 4 time. Can you point us to something in another time signature? How about something like polyrhythms and blends of time signatures, like some African drumming does? If you look into that, you'll find them mixing different time signatures, switching up, and creating all sorts of complex rythms. I haven't heard anything remotely like that in rap. If you know of something with complex time signatures, please list it. By the way, you will find complex time signatures in classical, jazz, some rock, and even occasionally in folk music.

Also, mind pointing out some rap/hip hop that has tempo changes? I can't think of any that does. Seems that the tempo always remains constant throughout. No variation.

Compared to genuinely complex rhythms, this is like pouring chocolate sauce over a Twinkie and then insisting that it is equal to a scratch-made soufflé from a classically trained pastry chef.

Further, there's no musical complexity, as I've pointed out earlier. No key changes and you'll only occasionally find a chord change in a sample, which is not original content.

Neither do you find musicianship. Arguably, scratching is a form of playing an instrument, but it's more on the level of playing a kazoo or a washboard. It's not that serious.

Lyrically, you rarely find any depth. Seems a lot of people are deeply impressed by a bunch of references to pop culture and other rappers. The problem with being topical is that it just doesn't hold up. Five years on and the references sound tired and old. Ten years on and new listeners won't get any of the references. Twenty years and they lose all meaning. All the rap out there today will be utterly meaningless to the next generation of listeners.

The genre is dead. When the topical references get stale, there's nothing there for people to appreciate. No musical complexity, no new musical ideas, no complex rhythms, and, well, not much of anything.

I know a handful of kids 12 and under. They don't show much interest in rap. They think it's "old" and just don't relate to it. They might not be representative of all younger listeners, but it is important to note that they respond positively to other older music. They love the more melodic classical pieces, the Beatles, Johnny Cash, Motown, Beach Boys, Pink Floyd, Elvis, rock oldies, and other classics. They haven't been exposed to much jazz, but do love "Time Out" (you'll find some complex time signatures in that, by the way, because that's the point of the album) and a few others. But rap isn't interesting to them.

Give it a generation, and rap will be a footnote, listened to mainly by those who like it now. The lyrics will make it wholly inaccessible to new listeners and there's nothing else compelling about the rest.

There you go with the generalizing again. I thought we already discussed about this in pages 1-2. There are plenty of examples that contradict what you just said.
 
Some of you guys are still expecting hip-hop to be like jazz and classical music; it simply just isnt. Comparing the genres is pointless as different genres are MEANT to be composed distinctively. Isnt that the beauty of music?
 
That's all I have to say. Im done with this thread.

 

[hybrid35]

I'm bringing this back from two months ago to say this one thing, just because I'm so appalled that a site full of audio enthusiasts don't even know how to comprehend what music is. Shaped and formed by our current media culture, we have been swayed towards and against certain sounds and this is what I observe in literally almost ALL of these posts (in both pro-hiphop and anti-hiphop). Rap isn't just a mimic of poetry, it IS poetry. It's just that it usually (keyword) has rhythm to tell a story in a more head bobble manner, but this rhythm isn't always needed to make music is it? Even staying in complexity is something that could be argued against, as I like to live my life in simplicity. Complexity, is also a form of personal preference and does not determine what is good music or what is bad music. Only a person can determine what it is to their ears.
 
So what am I getting at?
 
The main argument here is none of this is objective. No matter how you look at music, it is always a subjective matter. Don't be pissed off every time someone says that hip-hop and rap is not music, it is their opinion and they are completely entitled to it even in ignorance. I'm not saying all of you are doing that, and in fact only very little of you are pissed off but I thought I should point it out since it applies to all opinions, not on just music. You guys are actually much better and just provide examples to re-sway someone's thoughts on hip hop, but don't be surprised when it doesn't work. My opinion is that they shouldn't decide so quickly on a genre, but I still feel like they are entitled to a generalizing statement. Much like how I hate racists for generalizing a whole race under bad or good characteristics, I also have a bad opinion on people who generalize a whole genre to be bad or good. Take music by the piece, not by the whole. But even given my opinion on these people, I don't mind that they hate the whole genre, much like how I don't mind people are racists- even though they shouldn't be. I am no one to judge what they should think, I am not the thought police.
 
The OP actually understands that whatever he says, it will only be taken with a grain of salt. Where I differ with the OP is that even if your arguments are taken superficially, anything worth defending to you is worth the amount of words, time and effort you will put into trying to "shed a new light" onto people.
 
So here is my opinion on what music is. I take it in a less narrowminded view, and ANYTHING that moves me emotionally through a fantasized world of sound is music. Be it just instruments, story telling, or an amalgam of both that create any emotion. Even if it's a piece of Beethoven being massacred by 12 year-old's recital, I still recognize it as music. As someone said before here, it is"simply organized sound". Trying to over-analyze music is just something this culture has brought us up into, and I am partially against that culture as it clouds my thoughts and prefabricates many of my opinions.
 
That being said through my lack of organized thinking, let me divert you all into something that changed my views entirely on classical music, and therefore my views on music as a whole. http://www.ted.com/talks/benjamin_zander_on_music_and_passion.html

 

[jackmccabe]

Thank you for that I hope it puts an end to the argument.
I personally could not believe that people actually didn't consider rap or hip-hop music, yes I can understand disliking it but it is still clearly music.

 

[Uncle Erik]

That's the usual argument, blaming the dislikers for being "ignorant." You also vaguely imply that it's racist not to enjoy rap/hip-hop. Cute.

I don't see any real arguments advanced, either. You're defensive and spend a lot of time calling people ignorant rather than establishing any valid points.

You try to draw an analogy to poetry. I still haven't seen any rap or hip-hop with layered meanings. Everything I've seen is extremely topical and loaded with clichés. That's boring. It's like trying to argue that Dick and Jane books are equivalent to "Ulysses." It just doesn't hold up. If anything, it shows how ignorant you are. If you can't tell the difference between a coloring book and actual art, that's doesn't mean there's something wrong with someone who can tell the difference.

Again, what I need to see to take music seriously:

1. Music composition. No, stealing someone's else's composition does not count. If you take a few music classes, you can start picking out melodies on a piano. You can teach ten year olds to do this, it isn't especially difficult.

2. Playing an instrument. Again, you can start children on instruments around five years of age. Don't tell me it's difficult because it isn't. Anyone can learn to play. A little dedicated practice can make anyone a passable musician.

3. Original lyrics. Come on, the rap clichés have been circulating for nearly 25 years. Is it really that difficult to write something without them?

If you disagree, please list some artists who compose their own riffs, play instruments and have lyrics that aren't rehashed clichés from the early 1990s. Don't just insist that they exist or change the subject, I want names and albums.

Until I see a shred of originality, I will continue to think that rap/hip-hop is a product of the lazy and untalented produced for people who can't tell the difference between good and bad music.

 

[LFF]

Quote:

That's the usual argument, blaming the dislikers for being "ignorant." You also vaguely imply that it's racist not to enjoy rap/hip-hop. Cute.

I don't see any real arguments advanced, either. You're defensive and spend a lot of time calling people ignorant rather than establishing any valid points.

You try to draw an analogy to poetry. I still haven't seen any rap or hip-hop with layered meanings. Everything I've seen is extremely topical and loaded with clichés. That's boring. It's like trying to argue that Dick and Jane books are equivalent to "Ulysses." It just doesn't hold up. If anything, it shows how ignorant you are. If you can't tell the difference between a coloring book and actual art, that's doesn't mean there's something wrong with someone who can tell the difference.

Again, what I need to see to take music seriously:

1. Music composition. No, stealing someone's else's composition does not count. If you take a few music classes, you can start picking out melodies on a piano. You can teach ten year olds to do this, it isn't especially difficult.

2. Playing an instrument. Again, you can start children on instruments around five years of age. Don't tell me it's difficult because it isn't. Anyone can learn to play. A little dedicated practice can make anyone a passable musician.

3. Original lyrics. Come on, the rap clichés have been circulating for nearly 25 years. Is it really that difficult to write something without them?

If you disagree, please list some artists who compose their own riffs, play instruments and have lyrics that aren't rehashed clichés from the early 1990s. Don't just insist that they exist or change the subject, I want names and albums.

Until I see a shred of originality, I will continue to think that rap/hip-hop is a product of the lazy and untalented produced for people who can't tell the difference between good and bad music.
 

Bravo my friend....I certainly could not have said it any better!

 
Now...while I do tolerate rap/hip-hop, my big beef with it is the lack of universal themes and timeless topics. A modern rap/hip-hop tune might be catchy but the topics upon which it touches will most likely not be relevant a few months into the future. I was arguing about this same topic with a friend. It's funny how a dumb pop song like "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" has a more universal theme (and timeless) than any song by Eminem. To prove my point, we asked another person in our group about the reference "Skibbedy-be-bop, a-Christopher Reeves - Sonny Bono, skis horses and hittin some trees" and that person had no idea who either of those people were nor why they were mentioned nor why it was funny. That same person was bopping along to "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" about 10 minutes earlier. Don't ask me why I mentioned this but I thought it might be relevant.

 

[Ckaz]

Mos Def raps about water shortages
 

 
Promoe talks about oppresion in his home country on his album 'The Log Distance Runner'
 

 
Pete Philly & Perquisite
 

 
K-OS makes beautiful music
 

 
Very creative and passionate too
 

 
 
What if I went about classical music and said, "but where is the lyrcisim?". Classical music isn't lyrical, hip hop music isn't technical.
In comparison to a car, would you deny that a semi trailer is also an automobile?
In a comparison to a mansion, would you argue that an apartment isn't a home?
In comparison to an Abrahamic religion, would you argue that any other spiritual way of life is any less valid?
In comparison to a white person, would you argue that a person of a different background is any less human?
 

 

[rroseperry]

Uncle E, there are hip hop performers that can play, do play instruments. The Roots come to mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI4D1QOLGuM
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB5coQcelAk&NR=1

That the content's based on contemporary stuff doesn't matter for a really good song as all of Marvin Gaye's later work and all of Curtis Mayfield's work attest.

 

[limpidglitch]

Quote:

That's the usual argument, blaming the dislikers for being "ignorant." You also vaguely imply that it's racist not to enjoy rap/hip-hop. Cute.

I don't see any real arguments advanced, either. You're defensive and spend a lot of time calling people ignorant rather than establishing any valid points.

You try to draw an analogy to poetry. I still haven't seen any rap or hip-hop with layered meanings. Everything I've seen is extremely topical and loaded with clichés. That's boring. It's like trying to argue that Dick and Jane books are equivalent to "Ulysses." It just doesn't hold up. If anything, it shows how ignorant you are. If you can't tell the difference between a coloring book and actual art, that's doesn't mean there's something wrong with someone who can tell the difference.

Again, what I need to see to take music seriously:

1. Music composition. No, stealing someone's else's composition does not count. If you take a few music classes, you can start picking out melodies on a piano. You can teach ten year olds to do this, it isn't especially difficult.

2. Playing an instrument. Again, you can start children on instruments around five years of age. Don't tell me it's difficult because it isn't. Anyone can learn to play. A little dedicated practice can make anyone a passable musician.

3. Original lyrics. Come on, the rap clichés have been circulating for nearly 25 years. Is it really that difficult to write something without them?

If you disagree, please list some artists who compose their own riffs, play instruments and have lyrics that aren't rehashed clichés from the early 1990s. Don't just insist that they exist or change the subject, I want names and albums.

Until I see a shred of originality, I will continue to think that rap/hip-hop is a product of the lazy and untalented produced for people who can't tell the difference between good and bad music.
 

Your view on music seems awfully narrow.
 
1. A melody does not make music, and music does not need a melody.
 
2. The voice is a perfectly fine instrument. I think both Frank Sinatra and Edith Mathis would agree.
 
3. If you accept political Hip-Hop, there are plenty. Wonder where the spirit of the 60s protest songs got to? You just found it.
 
I love Timbuktu, You might not understand the words, but I think it meets Deep Funks specific criteria, so it's all OK
 
A pretty straight forward peace song:
 

 
 
A simple love song:
 

 
 
And a tribute to the glorious black liquid: