[CantScareMe]

Funny how I've come back to hip hop/rap mainly because of the ed8's.
For me I've never broken down in words what music should or shouldn't contain. Guidelines it doesn't follow.
 
Anyway, I wanted to say that (again- for me, probably not you!) a problem with hip hop seems to be that a bad song is unlistenable, and so too few fully listenable albums. Of course there are albums that don't have a stinker of a song in them- P diddy's last train to paris. And there's so much hip hop around, that sometimes it takes a while to find the decent albums. Like finding small golden nuggets.
 
When you land on one though, it is more than music. 

 

[jackmccabe]

Wow, apparently vocals aren't an instrument so that mean's that there is a lot of music that apparently isn't music.
Also music doe not need a melody to be music, look at most avant-garde experimental bands and you clearly see a lack of melody.
Also when did the topic of lyrics matter, many bands have dreadful lyrics and rap and hip-hop are definitely not the worst offenders (death metal)

 

[hybrid35]

I'll try to say this as nice as possible, but seeing as things are wrongly interpreted, this might be a bit of an aggressive post.
 
Uncle Erik, if your post was directed towards me, then you have taken the wrong emphasis from my post. And no way am I saying or even HINTING that people who don't like hip hop are racists, I was only using that as another example of why generalizing is such a logical fallacy. I could have easily used Patriotism as another form of generalized illogical fallacy. Just because of a certain number of exposure to a certain "genre" (a few exposures or many), you can't say that the WHOLE genre is bad without having ever listened to literally 100% of the songs in the genre, which I doubt anyone on this earth has ever done. Same thing with people, meet a few of this ethnicity and you have zero grounds to say that everyone of that ethnicity is of that generalization. In a sense, we are all ignorant, but if you don't recognize this ignorance, then you are blind. So please don't put words into my mouth.
 
What was my real argument being "advanced" here? Nothing more than stating what opinions are. You seem to have lost the sight of music subjectivity and think everything is right by your own path. Guess what, this world isn't as self-centered as you might believe it to be.
 
"You try to draw an analogy to poetry. I still haven't seen any rap or hip-hop with layered meanings. Everything I've seen is extremely topical and loaded with clichés." Layered meanings? Check out Mos def, Immortal technique, KRS-One or Jedi Mind Tricks who are easily capable of this. Story-telling and lyrical prowess? Lupe Fiasco, Andre 3000, Jurassic 5, and even Tupac with layered meanings as well. So called "complexity" of music can be seen in the Roots, Nujabes, Emancipator, DJ Okawari, Thomas Prime, Epik High, John Legend, Dr. Dre (you're going to hate these I know), Kanye West (who is experimental with the genre), and the list goes on. There can be a whole argument on if sampling is a form of music or not, but we won't get into that because I can provide you examples without it. So back to the less emphasized part of my argument of "ignorance", just because you're not exposed to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But you pushed me into talking about ignorance because without using examples then this argument is almost meaningless. By the way, I don't "try" to draw an analogy to poetry. I am saying it IS poetry. Once again, please use some reading comprehension. Before you say that poetry and music don't mix together, who are you to say they are mutually exclusive?
 
"Don't just insist that they exist or change the subject, I want names and albums." So if you haven't seen the examples posted before, there have been many people who have done their own instruments (Beastie Boys, Roots, etc) and it seems like you just skimmed over their post or just chose to ignore it. So I'm not going to list it again. If you say they aren't hip hop, then you don't know what hip hop is. This genre is one of the most spread out genres out there, and it can include elements of ANY other genre.
 
I am defensive? Sure I am, it's one of the points I made. Bravo, you have read something right. But more than that, I am pushing the agenda of opinion which you have clearly lost sight of. You take music into a very narrow form, and I don't mind that. You are allowed to believe what music is or is not in your own mind. But if you were to apply this to other people and not keep it your own opinion anymore (i.e. not recognizing their opinion to if it is music or not), then that's when the problem arises. So apparently we need to consult a dictionary. Take into mind that not all of this criteria has to be met, as long as it has ONE of the 8, then it is music.
 

mu·sic

   [myoo-zik] Show IPA
–noun 1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.
2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.
3. musical  work or compositions for singing or playing.
4. the written or printed score of a musical  composition.
5. such scores collectively.
6. any sweet, pleasing, or harmonious sounds or sound: the music of the waves.
7. appreciation of or responsiveness to musical  sounds or harmonies: Music was in his very soul.
8. Fox Hunting . the cry of the hounds.
 
Check that out. Hounds make music too. Making music is much simpler than you think it to be, why are you complicating things so much? For me, I say it is any type of sound, organized or not, that stirs emotions. Screeching can be music. Nails to the chalk board could be music. A person speaking in poetic manner, with or without perfect rhythm, could be music as long as the words with it's tonal ability get my thoughts running. Does it need a rhyme scheme? No. Does it need to be perfectly on beat even? No it does not, but it definitely helps. Watch the TED video if you haven't already, I would rather not have to explain my intentions. If you haven't got it already, my main point is bolded for easy reading comprehension, and no it's not about ignorance.
 
Right here I am not only defending hip hop and rap. I am defending ALL music, and all sounds that construe emotion. I am defending opinions, individuality and autonomy.
 
 
If I have enlightened anybody about anything, then I have done my job here but I am willing to continue talking about this if you don't understand something. I am only human though, and I do have something called patience: so please don't test it for fun and please put in an effort of thinking about what I wrote before mindlessly making another post. Not pointing fingers here

. "You're defensive and spend a lot of time calling people ignorant rather than establishing any valid points." I think my post here has literally proved this statement invalid. I make a couple valid points on opinions, generalizing, what I decide what music is, what other people could decide what music is, and least of all, ignorance upon everyone's behalf which is IMPORTANT if you haven't noticed what this thread is about: the ignorance of hip hop since you keep asking for examples which clearly means you have not heard it all, which is impossible anyways.
 
 
 
Edit/P.S.: I don't want to get into the matter of sampling or what not, but basically ALL OF Nujabes's works defends how sampling can and will be a musical form. His ability to blend sounds requires the ear, the precision, and the experience to create music and some might argue that it is actually harder to do than to create a piece of music. Where what you call "original" creation of music is made through a blank slate where ANYTHING can happen and very little rules need to be observed, sampling can be immensely difficult to do by gathering a multitude of beats and vocals then fusing them together into something that is audibly pleasurable into a different "genre". Sampling requires talent believe it or not. If you don't think so, give it a try and try to even hold a dime close to Nujabes. If you can, then props and maybe you're just a musical genius. Here is my youtube playlist I have made for my friends to listen to for fun: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?p=PL52EA83DF1563A1B4 and if you are to judge anything, please tell me which one you are judging and then pick it apart piece by piece and tell me why you despise it as a type of music, don't just say my whole playlist sucks. "I Miss You" by Ayur might not be on that list, but that one piece makes my spine tingle. I think you can find it on Sound Conclusion 27 where the piano picks up at around 4:00. Even with the vocals on Nujabes - Reflection Eternal, they blend very well. Why do I say that? Because the words and the sound reflect one another; it puts a mindset and frames the piece into something tangible.

 

[moriez]

Time and again I am baffled by all this needless discussion coming from and defending of opinions. All this time put into explanations.
 
Awful. Just awful.

 

[hybrid35]

Quote:

Time and again I am baffled by all this needless discussion coming from and defending of opinions. All this time put into explanations.
 
Awful. Just awful.

I agree that it is a subject revisited many more times than necessary, but it needs to be done every once in awhile. People do lose track of these things as opinions and that's where my post tries to "re-align" them. I don't mind putting my time into these explanations, even though I do have better things to do. I just get a joy from helping people understand, and that's not really time wasted. John Lennon once said "Time you enjoyed wasting, was not wasted", and I back that up 100%.
 
Not saying that I'm all completely right either though. I wouldn't mind that people don't consider the dictionary to have the real meaning of words either, an opinion that might or not might be qualified. But I try to come to a common denominator at least that we can all agree on, and help people notice that exceptions in life almost always exist- and music has many of them.

 

[jackmccabe]

Yes, but it is absolutely ridiculous for people to be saying that rap and hip-hop are not music especially highly regarded head-fier's.
Yes people are allowed not to like it but just because they do not appreciate doesn't mean it is not music.

 

[CantScareMe]

spot on

 

[Deep Funk]

My two cents:
A lot of Hip Hop tracks have the same beat, same tempo and it depends whether the sampling and production are of a high standard. Some groups/collaborations have proven that they can make more than standard bounceable/danceable Hip Hop, their names have been mentioned. Such groups even made compositions - Pete Philly & Perquisite, Tribe Called Quest etcetera - that make for very good instrumentals. 
 
Once the instrumentals are good the lyrics and vocals come into play and the clichés are all too known, especially in the mainstream realm. I also distinguish between lyrics and vocals because if the told story does not sound clear and sincere I consider only the instrumental side of the album worth a listen. 
 
A lot of Hip Hop just does not cut it for me. I can still thoroughly enjoy "93'Til Infinity" and "Mystery Repeats". I should dig a bit more for the better albums sometimes and Kyteman's Hip Hop Orchestra is next to try. For what it is worth the better Hip Hop still qualifies as 'music' for me but as soon the 'standard bouncing beats with typical cliché lyrical storytelling' enters my ears I tend to refer to it as noise for those who need to learn to count. 

 

[hybrid35]

J Dilla, Madlib, MF DOOM and RJD2 also make some incredible instrumentals if you're into that aspect of hip hop.

 

[Ynoskire]

You can check out Blue Sky Black Death's album NOIR if you're looking for instumentals.

 

[bcasey25raptor]

i agree with those who do not like rap. it is not necessarily that it takes no talent i just can't stand the sound of monotonous rapping. and regarding rap and instruments. have you heard of symphonic rap. it is rap with a symphony and in my opinion is actually listenable.

 

[Deep Funk]

La Melodia might be interesting too, thanks for the suggestions.

 

[CantScareMe]

 
Quote:

For what it is worth the better Hip Hop still qualifies as 'music' for me but as soon the 'standard bouncing beats with typical cliché lyrical storytelling' enters my ears I tend to refer to it as noise for those who need to learn to count. 

 
Fair enough. I can't say I think differently.
 
Hip hop is mainly known for the mainstream artists I guess. I mean there are some poor mainstream albums/singles out there. And the name of the artist doesn't help. Like diddy- (probably) one of the most hated artists in music. Leaving aside his dumb character that he plays, I by coincidence heard his last album in full, and it's not really badly recorded (So much rock music takes this accolade with flying colors), and sounds to me quite decent. So, hmm, maybe he's produced decent stuff in the past. And I listened to all his other albums and I hated all of them.
Another 'hated' artist- Lil wayne's. His 'The carter series' are quite decent, different to most of his other stuff I found.  
 
Trance is my main preference- That's why I like fast headphones with accurate bass. And I like even celtic music above most hip hop. But good hip hop regardless of the artists persona, does exist and I definitely find it musical. Oh and of course, pure hip hop and pure rap is different. I'm sure you know that. And I generaly prefer hip hop.

 

[Todd R]

Quote:

I have to disagree.

African Americans have developed several genres of music. Jazz, blues, ragtime, gospel, and even rock came from African traditions. Further, traditional African music still exists as does the more recent Afropop. There has also been influence in American folk. African influence is everywhere in American music. Limiting it to rap/hip hop just isn't accurate.

Second, you gloss over sampling. Let's be honest here, sampling is not a creative endeavor. It is taking part of another, original, creative work and making a copy. It requires no music composition, knowledge of music theory or the skill of playing an instrument. Further, rapping is mostly a spoken-word style. It does not require the ability to sing or any knowledge of music.

Most of rap/hip hop is strictly an assembly-line affair. Sample a catchy phrase written by someone else, lay it over a bog-standard disco beat, then assemble clichés about race, poverty, violence, drugs, women, etc.

Since music education is so poor or nonexistent these days, a lot of people mistake that for "creativity." It is not. To label it as such is practically an insult to the great African American musicians and composers who mostly pioneered American music. You cannot even begin to compare the most popular rappers to someone like Miles Davis. Davis actually composed music and was a damned fine musician. I can't think of a rapper who does either.

Rap/hip hop may be popular, but that does not mean there's any artistic merit. It's assembly-line music put out for profit and little else.

The reason rap/hip hop isn't taken seriously is because there's no music composition, nothing musically interesting, no musicianship, no vocal talent, and the lyrics are a tired grab-bag of clichés from 20 years ago.

Genres that are taken seriously feature original compositions played by actual musicians.

Genres that aren't taken seriously are rehashed commercial tropes designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator, like boy bands and advertising jingles. Those aren't designed to be art. They're designed to move products. Rap/hip hop isn't shy about this, either. You'll find plenty of bragging about selling product in the lyrics. Which isn't terribly different from a jingle to sell hamburgers or cars.

You probably weren't around in the 1980s, but the hair metal thing was huge. But it was just a bunch of cheap, commercial music designed to sell CDs. Everyone laughs about it now and doesn't take it seriously. Rap/hip hop will be laughed at in another 20 years.

As a small nit, the 9mm was not popularized by rap. It was introduced in 1902 by Georg Luger in Germany. It gained popularity and use through two World Wars.

Thanks Erik.
My vote for reply of the year!
 

 

[Thursday]

Obviously, everyone is entitled to their opinions. We can discuss the merits of rap lyrics and rhythm all we want, but we'll never come to agreement. For me, the magic of great music has always been about the creation of something more than the sum of its parts. And just because hip hop breaks someone's conventional notions about what music should sound like doesn't mean it can't be amazing in its own right. I like hip hop. I could point out a certain lyric or two, but what would be the point? I like it because it grabs my heart and shakes me from the inside out. Art doesn't have to have a reason; some art is just art.
 
Edit: spelling