[Ethan Groover]

 

Ahh that took way longer than I thought it would. My goodness, the whole night is gone now nice going Rhamnetin!

I followed that equalizing guide for my AKG Q701s. Mmm that sweet, sweet sound it's like twice as good as no EQ. Really balances out a pair of headphones in areas it may be too subtle or too prominent without taking away from any quality. It fixed any overpowering issues I was having before! Thank you so much for showing that to me!

I highly recommend you give it a shot one of these days. It's like tuning up your headphone instead of your car hehehe >< yayy I'm so happy.

Again here, I would highly recommend you turn off the EQ when you get the Schiit components. You are losing a lot of what will be revealed in your music without an EQ.
 
Concerning HDTracks, they really and truly are a scam. FLAC files were never intended to be used for higher quality listening; they are used for archiving music, due to the fact that they are loss-less, and copying a track to MP3 from a FLAC loses no audible data. If your whole library was in high quality 256 Kbs MP3 format, you would not ever be able to tell any discernible difference between that and your whole library in FLAC. FLACs are for audio file integrity, not listening pleasure - don't waste your money.

 

[Mackenzie]

  If you like the Q701 I would shy far away from the ATH-M50x. They have hardly any soundstage and a V shaped sound signature. I've listened to them, and they do in fact touch your ears.
 
The M70x is neutral and accurate, albeit maybe a bit bright, but my real recommendation is still the Mr Speakers Mad Dog. They are known for having an out of head sound stage in the closed headphone that they are. I think they would fit your needs perfectly.
You are using an equalizer to increase bass frequency response. You are going to drown out mid-range elements in your music, it is just inevitable. Digital Equalization always, always loses some of or a significant portion of your music. 

Here is what's up with your situation:
-the most major factor of you not getting the bass response you desire is the fact that you are not amping the Q701s. I used to own the K712 Pro, and when I tried it directly out of my phone, just for kicks and giggles, it had literally no bass response that I could discern. When I hooked it up to an Objective2, suddenly all the bass response it was lacking was there. Amping your headphones is very important.
-another major factor is that all (and I mean ALL) realtek audio chipsets in motherboards roll off bass frequencies.
 
Both of those things will be rectified when you plug in your Modi2/Magni2 stack, so I would wait until you have your dac/amp setup before you think anything is wrong with your headphones. You really have no idea what they sound like yet if you haven't amped them yet haha

It's interesting you say that because my most preferable EQ settings are shaped similarly to a 'V' in this setup, maybe more like a 'W'. I like my AKG Q701s of course, but they're the only quality pair of headphones I've ever listened to, so that shouldn't be the reason to shy away from the M50xs alone. The difference between these and any headsets or earbuds I've used prior is that the clarity and quality of music is hands down better. If anything I should be experimenting with new headphones and different kinds to find what is most enjoyable in various situations. I think the Q701s I might use as my primary gaming headphones in the long run because of the extremely wide soundstage and pinpoint clarity/accuracy it seems to have in each of the ranges. These are very, very good qualities for gaming especially competitive gaming (even the lower bass makes tolerating explosions and such easier on the ears as an example).

But for music I'm realizing that listening to it in basically a professional's recording studio state of source audio (neutral/accurate) might be a little bland for my standards (but I am not finalizing this opinion until a good week or more of listening with and without EQ and when I get my amplifier and converter). It just doesn't feel to me like it's supposed to be the way average music listening consumers should always enjoy their tunes.

This is why the EQ settings make all of my music sound significantly better on these particular headphones and I'm not talking just a little bit, I'm talking a ridiculous increase in enjoyment compared to before. I will however, repeat the EQ tuning work from scratch for my headphones when the amplifier and converter gets here, and see if it balances more of the hills and divets itself without needing as much tweaking. The settings I have tweaked very little in comparison to no EQ at all and just that tiny difference brought proper balance to the signature on my gear-less Q701s, so you got to give EQ credit where it's deserved when properly executed. I'm betting signatures used in headphones are basically equalizer settings of some sort. If you find changing any EQ settings is dampening the quality of your listening experience, you probably aren't doing a good enough job tuning it or are stretching them with too big of tweaks. That would be my guess anyway.

Also you seem to have blamed the sounds overwhelming sounds issue on me using EQ settings at all. I bolded the words "with and without" specifically for this reason to indicate I have done plenty of listening in both cases. The issue is actually fixed by proper tweaking using the equalizer! (Again this is without amplifier/converter)

I will however, check into these Mr Speakers Mad Dog headphones, but I think you may be mistaken in thinking that my only issue is not hearing enough bass. Now you have a better idea that for my broad taste in music I may want something a little less bland. I'm saying that using my own logic and research without actually having the means to have tested more headphones quite yet, so I'm trying to optimize, or even strategize if that is a better term, the path I take for the best listening experience for me personally.
 

  Again here, I would highly recommend you turn off the EQ when you get the Schiit components. You are losing a lot of what will be revealed in your music without an EQ.
 
Concerning HDTracks, they really and truly are a scam. FLAC files were never intended to be used for higher quality listening; they are used for archiving music, due to the fact that they are loss-less, and copying a track to MP3 from a FLAC loses no audible data. If your whole library was in high quality 256 Kbs MP3 format, you would not ever be able to tell any discernible difference between that and your whole library in FLAC. FLACs are for audio file integrity, not listening pleasure - don't waste your money.

I plan to try the Schiit equipment with and without equalizing of course to get a good feel for what I actually enjoy the most. I can't say for sure, but I have a very, very good feeling I will still prefer freshly tuned EQ settings for the Q701+Magni2+Modi2 combination. The equalizing is making many aspects significantly easier to hear than it was without, not harder. All of the added clarity and quality from upgrading to the Q701s is still there, and still blowing my mind with how much I wasn't hearing before. All the EQ is doing is allowing me to hear each level more equally, which is actually what not losing what is being revealed is haha..

Have you ever listened to a MP3 track straight from a Muse album and then a FLAC version of the same track? My goodness what audible differences! I've known this for ages even with super cheap equipment. Can't say I agree in that instance either. Hmm.

 

[Mackenzie]

  HDTracks sells mostly lossless, higher bit rate music.  I see plenty of 96 KHz/24-bit and 88.2 KHz/24-bit.

Out of curiosity, how much business have you given to HD Tracks? Even just a ball park estimate of how many albums you'd say you purchased from their domain.

 

[Rhamnetin]

 
Out of curiosity, how much business have you given to HD Tracks? Even just a ball park estimate of how many albums you'd say you purchased from their domain.

 
Only about 3 albums, and their albums are usually around $20 each.

 

[Ethan Groover]

 
It's interesting you say that because my most preferable EQ settings are shaped similarly to a 'V' in this setup, maybe more like a 'W'. I like my AKG Q701s of course, but they're the only quality pair of headphones I've ever listened to, so that shouldn't be the reason to shy away from the M50xs alone. The difference between these and any headsets or earbuds I've used prior is that the clarity and quality of music is hands down better. If anything I should be experimenting with new headphones and different kinds to find what is most enjoyable in various situations. I think the Q701s I might use as my primary gaming headphones in the long run because of the extremely wide soundstage and pinpoint clarity/accuracy it seems to have in each of the ranges. These are very, very good qualities for gaming especially competitive gaming (even the lower bass makes tolerating explosions and such easier on the ears as an example).

But for music I'm realizing that listening to it in basically a professional's recording studio state of source audio (neutral/accurate) might be a little bland for my standards (but I am not finalizing this opinion until a good week or more of listening with and without EQ and when I get my amplifier and converter). It just doesn't feel to me like it's supposed to be the way average music listening consumers should always enjoy their tunes.

This is why the EQ settings make all of my music sound significantly better on these particular headphones and I'm not talking just a little bit, I'm talking a ridiculous increase in enjoyment compared to before. I will however, repeat the EQ tuning work from scratch for my headphones when the amplifier and converter gets here, and see if it balances more of the hills and divets itself without needing as much tweaking. The settings I have tweaked very little in comparison to no EQ at all and just that tiny difference brought proper balance to the signature on my gear-less Q701s, so you got to give EQ credit where it's deserved when properly executed. I'm betting signatures used in headphones are basically equalizer settings of some sort. If you find changing any EQ settings is dampening the quality of your listening experience, you probably aren't doing a good enough job tuning it or are stretching them with too big of tweaks. That would be my guess anyway.

Also you seem to have blamed the sounds overwhelming sounds issue on me using EQ settings at all. I bolded the words "with and without" specifically for this reason to indicate I have done plenty of listening in both cases. The issue is actually fixed by proper tweaking using the equalizer! (Again this is without amplifier/converter)

I will however, check into these Mr Speakers Mad Dog headphones, but I think you may be mistaken in thinking that my only issue is not hearing enough bass. Now you have a better idea that for my broad taste in music I may want something a little less bland. I'm saying that using my own logic and research without actually having the means to have tested more headphones quite yet, so I'm trying to optimize, or even strategize if that is a better term, the path I take for the best listening experience for me personally.
 

I plan to try the Schiit equipment with and without equalizing of course to get a good feel for what I actually enjoy the most. I can't say for sure, but I have a very, very good feeling I will still prefer freshly tuned EQ settings for the Q701+Magni2+Modi2 combination. The equalizing is making many aspects significantly easier to hear than it was without, not harder. All of the added clarity and quality from upgrading to the Q701s is still there, and still blowing my mind with how much I wasn't hearing before. All the EQ is doing is allowing me to hear each level more equally, which is actually what not losing what is being revealed is haha..

In response to everything you said about EQ, just wait til you get your equipment lol. You don't know what AKG Q701s were intended to sound like until you use them with a dac/amp combo.
 
A friend of mine is over for the next 4 days; he is actually the person I sold my AKG K712 Pros to, so I have had a chance to extensively listen to the K712 (which has a very, very similar signature to the Q701) unamped and amped, with and without a dac. Amped from his or my PC without a dac is almost unbearable to listen to. It is just harsh and bland. Listening to them coming from the Magni/Modi or Objective2/Modi combo sounds almost as good as my HE-560s. The soundstage opens up, the sound signature becomes very neutral and bass response is much more accurate, and all the harshness in the treble just disappears. It isn't a subtle difference in the slightest. It literally sounds like a totally different headphone- fully amped K712 without a DAC doesn't even sound worth 50 bucks, and fully amped K712 with a DAC sounds better than Sennheiser HD 700s. 
 

Originally Posted by Mackenzie /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 

Have you ever listened to a MP3 track straight from a Muse album and then a FLAC version of the same track? My goodness what audible differences! I've known this for ages even with super cheap equipment. Can't say I agree in that instance either. Hmm.

I actually have! I've listened to Absolution, Black Holes and Revelations, and The 2nd Law in FLAC and 320Kb/s MP3. They all sound identical, whether FLAC or MP3. I'd be willing to bet that your MP3s and FLACs were not of the same source, in other words, the MP3s were not converted from the same FLACs you listened to. You were probably listening to a quality FLAC and poorly converted MP3. If you convert a FLAC to MP3, and the FLAC is high quality, you won't hear a difference between the two. I would encourage you to try this blind test: http://www.head-fi.org/t/646411/lossless-vs-128kbps-mp3-vs-320kbps-mp3-blind-test if you really think you can hear a difference..

 

[Mackenzie]

  In response to everything you said about EQ, just wait til you get your equipment lol. You don't know what AKG Q701s were intended to sound like until you use them with a dac/amp combo.
 
A friend of mine is over for the next 4 days; he is actually the person I sold my AKG K712 Pros to, so I have had a chance to extensively listen to the K712 (which has a very, very similar signature to the Q701) unamped and amped, with and without a dac. Amped from his or my PC without a dac is almost unbearable to listen to. It is just harsh and bland. Listening to them coming from the Magni/Modi or Objective2/Modi combo sounds almost as good as my HE-560s. The soundstage opens up, the sound signature becomes very neutral and bass response is much more accurate, and all the harshness in the treble just disappears. It isn't a subtle difference in the slightest. It literally sounds like a totally different headphone- fully amped K712 without a DAC doesn't even sound worth 50 bucks, and fully amped K712 with a DAC sounds better than Sennheiser HD 700s. 
 
I actually have! I've listened to Absolution, Black Holes and Revelations, and The 2nd Law in FLAC and 320Kb/s MP3. They all sound identical, whether FLAC or MP3. I'd be willing to bet that your MP3s and FLACs were not of the same source, in other words, the MP3s were not converted from the same FLACs you listened to. You were probably listening to a quality FLAC and poorly converted MP3. If you convert a FLAC to MP3, and the FLAC is high quality, you won't hear a difference between the two. I would encourage you to try this blind test: http://www.head-fi.org/t/646411/lossless-vs-128kbps-mp3-vs-320kbps-mp3-blind-test if you really think you can hear a difference..

Fair enough haha, I am definitely excited about their arrival it should be by next Wednesday but could be tomorrow (today) if I'm lucky!!

You're right about not knowing without first unlocking the potential/potency of the headphones, this is why I'm holding on to not committing to a verdict until I've tested both with and without EQ after I have the equipment arrive. Judging by how effective you say these devices will be to drive the Q701s, I'm guessing even after a full night perfecting the equalization of the sound for my ears, there will be virtually no changes if it already sounds perfect to me. We'll see very soon!

But Muse albums don't sell their music in 320 Kb/s format the last time I checked, at least in their CDs. I've never heard of such HQ versions of MP3 either until now hrm. I should know I've bought all their albums and the FLAC versions are vastly superior to their public album's qualities. Unless Canada is getting badly compressed CDs or something?

I don't think I can hear a difference between 320 Kb/s and FLAC, but I do for the CD albums I have compared to their HQ counterparts. Surely ripping software can't be compressing the audio quality while I transfer to my computer?

 

[Mackenzie]

I listened to a bunch of songs back to back from two different official Muse albums now; Absolution and Origin of Symmetry. First from the CD, second from a FLAC file for each song. I can hear sounds (clarity) in the FLAC variants that I cannot hear in the MP3s on the CD. I'm confused, where do you find these lossless MP3s?

 

[Rhamnetin]

MP3 by definition is lossy.  But some are more lossy than others, even at the same bit rate, which is what he was saying.

 

[Mackenzie]

I just find it hard to believe that what he is saying about HD Tracks being a scam is true. I can clearly hear the more accurate quality going from MP3 to FLAC from an average album. Even using cheap earbuds with on-board audio. Is there some place that isn't a scam that sells 320 Kb/s MP3 files that he's talking about? Do only a limited selection of artists sell their MP3s as these impossible-to-distinguish-from-FLAC tracks?

haha I'm so confused

 

[Rhamnetin]

Well from what I understand, he was saying that marketing lossless files as sounding better to our ears (which HDTracks does) is the scam.  But there's no doubt that they sell really high quality lossless music.
 
So if you want to test, maybe take one of your good FLACs, convert it to MP3 with a good program using good settings, and seeing if you hear a difference.  I never went through the trouble, although I've compared 320 Kb/s MP3s from iTunes to a FLACs from HDTracks and the latter sounds obviously better to me.

 

[Mackenzie]

Ohh I see. I guess for some, especially in his situation that would seem like a scam. Can't blame him in that case.

But it's true though.. FLAC to MP3 is like 24-bit uncompressed BMP to a scale 1-12 quality JPEG image.. Even with 12 (max) quality, the JPEG may look extremely convincing to the eye to be just about as high quality or equal as the quality of an uncompressed bitmap, but those with keen eyes can see the difference. I'm one of those people.

What I'd really like to know though, is where he is getting all of these perfect sounding replications of MP3 compressed tracks that sound completely identical to their FLAC counterparts.

 

[Ethan Groover]

  Ohh I see. I guess for some, especially in his situation that would seem like a scam. Can't blame him in that case.

But it's true though.. FLAC to MP3 is like 24-bit uncompressed BMP to a scale 1-12 quality JPEG image.. Even with 12 (max) quality, the JPEG may look extremely convincing to the eye to be just about as high quality or equal as the quality of an uncompressed bitmap, but those with keen eyes can see the difference. I'm one of those people.

What I'd really like to know though, is where he is getting all of these perfect sounding replications of MP3 compressed tracks that sound completely identical to their FLAC counterparts.

They aren't replications...I'm converting directly to MP3 from the FLACs. That is the intended use for FLACs; if you are comparing MP3s and FLACs from different sources, you aren't making a very fair comparison. I have very trained ears and 20/15 vision, so I understand your analogy, but the human ear, though very advanced, can not retrieve limitless detail. 
 
Take one of your FLACs, and convert it to MP3 directly using good converting software (dBpoweramp for instance) and you won't hear the difference. If you don't wanna convert yourself, buy some music on Bandcamp. Many artists who sell their music on there offer nearly every file format you could ask for, and very often MP3 and FLAC/WAV from the same source.
 
Don't you find it odd that HDTracks doesn't sell any of their music in lower bit-rate formats when other popular sites, like bandcamp, do?

 

[Rhamnetin]

 
Don't you find it odd that HDTracks doesn't sell any of their music in lower bit-rate formats when other popular sites, like bandcamp, do?

 
I believe I have seen 44.1 KHz (max) albums on HDTracks.  I think they're cheaper than their good lossless tracks too.

 

[Mackenzie]

  They aren't replications...I'm converting directly to MP3 from the FLACs. That is the intended use for FLACs; if you are comparing MP3s and FLACs from different sources, you aren't making a very fair comparison. I have very trained ears and 20/15 vision, so I understand your analogy, but the human ear, though very advanced, can not retrieve limitless detail. 
 
Take one of your FLACs, and convert it to MP3 directly using good converting software (dBpoweramp for instance) and you won't hear the difference. If you don't wanna convert yourself, buy some music on Bandcamp. Many artists who sell their music on there offer nearly every file format you could ask for, and very often MP3 and FLAC/WAV from the same source.
 
Don't you find it odd that HDTracks doesn't sell any of their music in lower bit-rate formats when other popular sites, like bandcamp, do?

Ohh haha I feel silly now. They're conversions, not raw album MP3s! That makes much more sense. I wish every artist would do that (HQ conversion), or would it be too much for single CDs?

I'm not sure if I'd spend the time converting from FLAC to MP3 personally. I guess so that I could only have to buy music once, starting with FLAC for the flexibility of having a FLAC sounding MP3 format that would play in all players. It's good to know in that instance too, hrm. Given I only listen from my computer and rarely a handheld gaming system, I'll be able to listen to FLACs directly just fine the majority of the time. Verdict; the knowledge and converting tip is appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to explain it down to dum-dum level haha.

I'd still like to know where you're obtaining your FLAC files though, if HD Tracks is assumed to be not worthy of your business? So I can check them out for myself too! ^^;

 

[Ethan Groover]

 
Ohh haha I feel silly now. They're conversions, not raw album MP3s! That makes much more sense. I wish every artist would do that (HQ conversion), or would it be too much for single CDs?

I'm not sure if I'd spend the time converting from FLAC to MP3 personally. I guess so that I could only have to buy music once, starting with FLAC for the flexibility of having a FLAC sounding MP3 format that would play in all players. It's good to know in that instance too, hrm. Given I only listen from my computer and rarely a handheld gaming system, I'll be able to listen to FLACs directly just fine the majority of the time. Verdict; the knowledge and converting tip is appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to explain it down to dum-dum level haha.

I'd still like to know where you're obtaining your FLAC files though, if HD Tracks is assumed to be not worthy of your business? So I can check them out for myself too! ^^;

Bandcamp or the respective artist's website. But either way you can almost always find high quality 320Kb/s MP3s of whatever you want, so there is rarely any need for FLAC. It just takes up more space..