[astrostar59]

 
astrostar,  I've said it before.  I owned the following:  
 
TotalDac D1-Dual
Bricasti M1 [ΣΔ at its' best]
Aqua La Scala MK2
Schiit Audio Yggdrasil
AMR DP-777 [Duelund VSF Black Cast Capacitors]
Audio-gd Master 7 w/ HDMI i2S
Audio-gd Master 7
PerfectWave DAC MKII
NAD m51 Direct Digital DAC
Schiit Audio Modi
Buffalo III (PB&J)
John Kenny Ciunas DAC
 
And heard for long periods of time the Lamipzator L4 G4 and a Audio Note Kit 4.1 built by DigitalPete.  Needless to say the Audio Note kit was one of my "least" favorite DACS.  Not resolving at all.
 
Yet the best DAC I've heard to date is the EMM Labs DAC2X - I think it's based on the 1 bit D-S technology but does not use a D-S off the shelf  chip.  It's made in house like the Metrum DACS are now.
 
So I've had all flavors and behind the DAC2X and the TotalDAC I place the Bricasti M1 in third place.  So my point is it's not the technology per se.  It's more the implementation of the DAC chip that's used.  The Graphon Kalliope is proof of that.  

 

 
astrostar,  I've said it before.  I owned the following:  
 
TotalDac D1-Dual
Bricasti M1 [ΣΔ at its' best]
Aqua La Scala MK2
Schiit Audio Yggdrasil
AMR DP-777 [Duelund VSF Black Cast Capacitors]
Audio-gd Master 7 w/ HDMI i2S
Audio-gd Master 7
PerfectWave DAC MKII
NAD m51 Direct Digital DAC
Schiit Audio Modi
Buffalo III (PB&J)
John Kenny Ciunas DAC
 
And heard for long periods of time the Lamipzator L4 G4 and a Audio Note Kit 4.1 built by DigitalPete.  Needless to say the Audio Note kit was one of my "least" favorite DACS.  Not resolving at all.
 
Yet the best DAC I've heard to date is the EMM Labs DAC2X - I think it's based on the 1 bit D-S technology but does not use a D-S off the shelf  chip.  It's made in house like the Metrum DACS are now.
 
So I've had all flavors and behind the DAC2X and the TotalDAC I place the Bricasti M1 in third place.  So my point is it's not the technology per se.  It's more the implementation of the DAC chip that's used.  The Graphon Kalliope is proof of that.  

 
The AN 4.1 kit standard has AN copper caps which IMO strangle the detail. Also it leaps up hugely with a Bendix equivalent tube in the PS (draws twice the current) and NOS Tungsol 5687s on the line board. How did you feed it?
 
Prepoman, impressive list, you have been busy. I am interested you rate the TotalDAC. I am wanting to try one of these myself. I also now want to hear the DAC2X, though it might be better to hear the Meitner MA-1 as it sounds the same and is half the money according to:
http://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php/blogging-on-audio/133-doug-schneider/450-emm-labs-dac2x-vs-meitner-audio-ma-1-big-small-differences
 
This hobby is very complex. I guess it comes down to taste, and then finding the sound that is right for you, then stopping with that DAC. Who knows what I will do, but I am very happy right now, and thus would only look at other R-2R designs going forward.

 

[astrostar59]

  The CH-P C1 is a really nice piece of equipment. In my home setup I use a dCS Paganini. I recently bought a Classe Omega Preamp and while it goes against my logical explanation (adding a preamp when your DAC has an onboard preamp) it does a better job combined then when using the Paganini amp-direct.
 
I think it is really important to audition the DAC in your own system. I've heard dCS quite a lot before and sometimes it just sounded cold and not very moving...

Interesting you found the extra value of a pre-amp. I found this as well but not in all cases.
 
I am convinced it comes down to the design of the pre-amp in the DAC i.e. having a power supply big enough and with a low output impedance, plus how the last stage is driven. I managed to cheat with my DAC, as basically mine is a pre-amp design with a digital board inside it, and the output transformers drive the next stage very well. I use a passive and short interconnects to between the passive and the power amp. The KGSShv goes direct off the DAC as it has it's own pot.
 
I have not heard the dCS gear, but it has won awards and got great reviews. Congrats on your system!
 
The high end DACs seem to be coming thick and fast now? I watch from the wings, I don't have the budgets for such things now, but I find the extra SQ that may be there fascinating.

 

[David1961]

I was told that using a CH-P X1 power supply with the C1 improves on the SQ with an even wider soundstage and greater detail.
Now although I haven't even got a C1, when I do have one ( eventually ) I may also save for a X1.

I've mentioned it would probably be around 3 years at the earliest before I'd have the spare money to get a C1, but there's a possibility I could be getting one sooner, much sooner.
That possibility involves swapping my K-01 for that C1 I auditioned the other day, and while that C1 is an ex-demo so obviously isn't new, by the way Luke treated it and the condition it was in, it's obvious he's looked after it, and very much so.
I'm in discussion via emails with Luke about that C1, so fingers crossed something can be sorted out.

The K-01 has been and still is an excellent source, but because I'm not listening to CD's that much now, and because I was extremely impressed with how the 009/BHSE sounded while using the C1, I feel this is an oppotunity I have to take.
I'm not saying anymore in case things fall apart, but I'm very excited at what the outcome might be.

 

[David1961]

I've received an email from Luke, and unfortunately my suggestion in getting a C1 sooner wasn't acceptable, therefore like before I'll be saving for one, although it will take sometime.
Luke did say that when I've got an amount saved that might be enough for a C1, then he'd be happy to sell my K-01 for me which would be something I'd be very happy for him to do.
It would've been nice to have had the C1 sooner, but I'm still enjoying my K-01 with the 009/BHSE, so the wait for a C1 won't be that frustrating.

 

[astrostar59]

Hi David
This hobby is like a drug, we just keep wanting more of it....
 
I was thinking, that C1 sounded fantastic right? It was the first R-2R you have heard, certainly in your own system.
 
I think (believe) the K-01 is a great DAC/CDP but could be on the brighter side or enforsed detail or should I say upper treble emphasis. I am saying this as to how I heard it at your house, and reading many posts of the Esoteric house sound. Don't get me wrong, that K-01 is really damb good. I have NO idea if this is relevant, but Audio Note Japan voice there crazy money amplifiers on the brighter side of neutral, and they sell strongly to the Japanese market. They just sound brighter than the AN Uk products.
 
How I would summarise it:
K-01 = slightly bright treble energy emphasis (I won't bring the DS into this anymore, fed up with the attack from others)
BHSE = capacitor less design with (possibly) a voicing for the 007? Regardless may be slightly bright with some EL34s.
009 = unbelievably transparent, nowhere to hide, displays everything and can sound incredible but maybe slightly bright?
 
So, like a big birthday cake made in good faith, we have sugar, sugar and more sugar. You get my drift.
 
My DAC is tubed, has R-2R non oversampling and 'may' have a slightly softer treble energy. TotalDAC reckon R-2R has a tail off in the upper treble unless corrected. I have no idea if mine is corrected. All I can say is it sounds balanced and transparent at the same time. I don't know for sure to compare, as I can't bring it to your house. Regardless somehow, my DAC and my KGSShv and the 009s sound truly balanced and I still get gobs of detail and stage width / decay etc.
 
So, what I am saying is, just because a component is incredible by itself, it does not mean to say it will stay incredible when hooked up to 2 other devices. It is the system synergy thing again, I keep coming back to it. I don't get why folk on here can't see that. A DAC that sounds incredible to them, may be because it is genuinely gelling so well with that persons 009/007/Stat Amp or speakers. There are many variables.
 
If we ALL have the BHSE and the 009s, and ran the same tubes, then hell, yes, we can all have a really good talk about this or that DAC being the best there is. But please folks, look at the rest of the gear. For example, 'maybe' the Yggy which is supposed to be brighter than the TotalDAC sounds better with the 007s.
 
The sound signature you heard David with that C1, I am sure you can get that with a TotalDAC or something else for 50% of the cost of the C1. I would strongly suggest you / we try the MSB Analogue and Power Base and the TotalDAC to see if that is the case.
 
All this I find is very fascinating, I love this stuff. Basically we are all after the holy grail of a sound system, we are wanting the same thing.... well some seem to buy and sell every month  so maybe that is something else? Anyway I just want the best sound I can get on my tiny budgets.
 
BTW I spotted an Audio Note DAC 5 Special for sale second hand, I was very tempted. Her in doors would kill me, but maybe it would be worth being killed?
 
Going back to the 009s, they are an incredible thing, but a double edged sword. You really do need to get the front end stuff balanced to have an enjoyable ride. It can sound amazing with many many components, but to get the absolute best and want more, no fatigue, hours of fun, it REQUIRES a lot of hard work to get the system synergy right. Once there, it is a world beater, nothing will come close Ha Ha, speakers, forget it, they are rubbish. Now that is what I am talking about, getting to that point.....

 

[Rhamnetin]

 
Going back to the 009s, they are an incredible thing, but a double edged sword. You really do need to get the front end stuff balanced to have an enjoyable ride. It can sound amazing with many many components, but to get the absolute best and want more, no fatigue, hours of fun, it REQUIRES a lot of hard work to get the system synergy right. Once there, it is a world beater, nothing will come close

 
I guess I'm lucky that one of the SR-009 systems I've listened to is very much ideal, both on paper and to my ears.  The BHSE with the Alps RK50 was used as the amp (stock tubes), DAC was the lovely Ayre Acoustics QB-9 using balanced output.  The QB-9 does not have treble emphasis, it may be ever so slightly laid back.

 

[preproman]

   
I guess I'm lucky that one of the SR-009 systems I've listened to is very much ideal, both on paper and to my ears.  The BHSE with the Alps RK50 was used as the amp (stock tubes), DAC was the lovely Ayre Acoustics QB-9 using balanced output.  The QB-9 does not have treble emphasis, it may be ever so slightly laid back.

 
Sound like you heard Justin's rig at a meet..

 

[astrostar59]

Aha, interesting. Tyrell's review of the 009 and BHSE also had that DAC......

 

[Rhamnetin]

   
Sound like you heard Justin's rig at a meet..

 
Spot on.  Except Justin himself was MIA.
 

  Aha, interesting. Tyrell's review of the 009 and BHSE also had that DAC......

 
Yeah, if I'm ever shopping for a DAC in that price range, that will be my first pick.  The only downside is that it only has one input (USB), so it's very limited as far as functionality goes.

 

[Hi Rez]

Justin picked up the QB-9 DSD after listening to mine with his GS-X Mk2 at a meet in Denver.  I ordered a GS-X Mk2 shortly after listening to the same.
 
One note about the QB-9.  In my experience, it's performance depends upon the quality of the USB source.  Feed it from a noisy computer and usb line - it will sound good.  Feed it from a quiet, optimized computer / USB signal and it starts sounding really good.  YMMV.

 

[David1961]

  Hi David,
I am sure you can get that with a TotalDAC or something else for 50% of the cost of the C1. I would strongly suggest you / we try the MSB Analogue and Power Base and the TotalDAC to see if that is the case.

 
Hi Julian,
 
Yes there are R-2R DAC's a lot cheaper than the C1 that might also sound as good, but I'm not interested in any of them simply because the C1 has the three thing's I'm wanting from an audio piece.
 
Getting a C1 will take me sometime saving for, but I was listening to my HD-600 / Dynalo mk1 with the K-01 last night for a couple of hours and the SQ was extremely good, so I won't be looking at the clock while saving for that C1.
 
 
P.S. We can try the two DAC's you've mentioned as well as some others, but I won't be getting any.

 

[RubenV]

  Interesting you found the extra value of a pre-amp. I found this as well but not in all cases.
 
I am convinced it comes down to the design of the pre-amp in the DAC i.e. having a power supply big enough and with a low output impedance, plus how the last stage is driven. I managed to cheat with my DAC, as basically mine is a pre-amp design with a digital board inside it, and the output transformers drive the next stage very well. I use a passive and short interconnects to between the passive and the power amp. The KGSShv goes direct off the DAC as it has it's own pot.
 
I have not heard the dCS gear, but it has won awards and got great reviews. Congrats on your system!
 
The high end DACs seem to be coming thick and fast now? I watch from the wings, I don't have the budgets for such things now, but I find the extra SQ that may be there fascinating.

 
Last year I went to someone I met through an other forum and we tested the Paganini with and without an Audio Research Ref5SE on his Kharma speakers and ARC REF 110 amplifier.
With the ARC the soundstage was more upfront (1meter for the speakers) and with only the Paganini the soundstage was behind the speakers. With the ARC pre it sounded more live. After this experience I was more convinced in the added value of a decent preamp. The powersupply of the Omega Preamp MKII is situated in it's own chassis, quit massive (as you can see in the picture) and has a capacity of 177.000 uF. Now I can enjoy the Paganini more, and hear stuff I never could have hoped this DAC was capable of.

 

[astrostar59]

   
Last year I went to someone I met through an other forum and we tested the Paganini with and without an Audio Research Ref5SE on his Kharma speakers and ARC REF 110 amplifier.
With the ARC the soundstage was more upfront (1meter for the speakers) and with only the Paganini the soundstage was behind the speakers. With the ARC pre it sounded more live. After this experience I was more convinced in the added value of a decent preamp. The powersupply of the Omega Preamp MKII is situated in it's own chassis, quit massive (as you can see in the picture) and has a capacity of 177.000 uF. Now I can enjoy the Paganini more, and hear stuff I never could have hoped this DAC was capable of.

I can see that, impressive.
 
Possibly my situation is quite rare? But if you look at the Audio Note DAC 4.1 and the Audio Note L4 Pre-amplifier, the power supplies are exactly the same, and the line board as well. Basically the DAC 4.1 has the same tubes and components, plus the same output transformer type. The ONLY difference in my case is the output transformers are 33:1 instead of 18:1 in the preamplifier, and a pot is added at the output. As you would never run a pot wide open, you are basically using a 2/2.5v signal level.
 
I have 2-2.5v and output impedance of only 10 ohms in my DAC, so as long as my passive is close to my DAC it acts exactly the same as a pre-amplifier externally. There is no sense in my having 2 x line stages and component count, to then bring the high level signal back down to 2/2.5V (or 5.2V Balanced).
 
The design in most (almost all) DACs is to have a smaller amp /opp amp stage to drive the expected pre-amplifier up the chain. Most are not designed to drive a power amplifier directly, though I am told the TotalDAC can.
 
To prove my theory, I used to own the Audio Note M3 and ran the exact same DAC throughout that (very good) pre-amplifier. It had a bit more body, but was artificial and slower, too thick. Removing that (not required) gain stage has increased speed and detail, basically everything is better.
 
Regardless, I ma glad you have found a good match for your dCs, this hobby has so many variables, and when you find gear that gells so well, it makes a big difference.

 

[astrostar59]

   
Hi Julian,
 
Yes there are R-2R DAC's a lot cheaper than the C1 that might also sound as good, but I'm not interested in any of them simply because the C1 has the three thing's I'm wanting from an audio piece.
 
Getting a C1 will take me sometime saving for, but I was listening to my HD-600 / Dynalo mk1 with the K-01 last night for a couple of hours and the SQ was extremely good, so I won't be looking at the clock while saving for that C1.
 
 
P.S. We can try the two DAC's you've mentioned as well as some others, but I won't be getting any.

Hi David 
I can see you are impressed by that C1, I wish I had heard it as well. Did you hear it on it's own i.e. not with the external power supply? If you did hear it on it's own the price is 20K, with that PS it gets crazy money.
 
I have all sorts of chaos going on with my DAC, new Duelund Cast capacitors, upgraded PS board and part, new I/Vs (fitted 3 weeks back) new digital board and regulation board incoming. I am trying to do each upgrade parts with a 2 week test, to bug fix, but also hear the difference each mod makes.
 
To complicate things further I have a PS Audio P10 coming next week, and will use it to power my DAC and KGSShv. I have also turned the house upside-down to fit a direct ring main for the feed for that P10 and my Power amps.
 
I'll post pics and let you know how it goes. Each thing we can do to up the sound quality is worth the hassle. I have no real idea how much each will affect things, so will have to try it and see.
 
A R-2R Kit DAC does allows modding parts and of course if it has tubes to roll to tweak the sound. Anyone here who fancies doing that should look at the Audio Note DAC kits. I have built 3 so far.

 

[David1961]

Hi David 
I can see you are impressed by that C1, I wish I had heard it as well. Did you hear it on it's own i.e. not with the external power supply? If you did hear it on it's own the price is 20K, with that PS it gets crazy money.

Yes I was/am extremely impressed with the C1 in every way, so much so I'm prepared to save for it's cost of £20,000.
The C1 without any add-on's is £18,500, but the USB board at £1,500 which is needed for using a computer obviously takes it to £20,000.
I'd be selling the K-01 to help get to the cost of the C1 sooner, but £20,000 is quite an amount for a piece of audio equipment and will take me sometime saving, but some pay large amounts for a car, while others buy paintings and ornaments at high costs, so l'm only doing the same but for a piece of audio equipment.

When I had that audition with the C1, the CH P X1 power supply wasn't used, so when I've saved the amount needed I'll ask Luke if he'll bring a X1 to hear how the C1 sounds ( while using the 009/BHSE ) with that power supply.

Getting a C1 will see my life out, because apparently any possible future improvements can be added to present C1's, so when getting one I'll not be changing it for anything else.