[RubenV]

Getting a C1 will see my life out, because apparently any possible future improvements can be added to present C1's, so when getting one I'll not be changing it for anything else.

 
That makes it a good investment! Nowadays, DAC tech changes at high rates and when spending this kind of money on a DAC this is a very solid proposition. Also the reason why I would never bought my dCS dac new, since they bring out a new model every few years. Just one chassis that can be updated is the way to go IMHO.

 

[karlgerman]

The Burr Brown chipset is not, really not the newest one, but the pricing  of an C1 is.
I was talking about this to my technical orientated friend and he said this is overpriced.
As the developers originate from GOLDMUND everyone should know the marked segment they aiming at!
 
If it sound´s good it sound good, no matter. But really, over 10.000 for a power supply is a warning sign for me.

 

[astrostar59]

 
 
Quote:

  The Burr Brown chipset is not, really not the newest one, but the pricing  of an C1 is.
I was talking about this to my technical orientated friend and he said this is overpriced.
As the developers originate from GOLDMUND everyone should know the marked segment they aiming at!
 
If it sound´s good it sound good, no matter. But really, over 10.000 for a power supply is a warning sign for me.

I was surprised how much the PS was as well. The MSB Analogue is 4K? And the DAC is 8K. So about the same 50% ratio. From why I read on the CH site, the PS connects in a special way, and deactivates the PS in the DAC itself. Thus is interesting, but also quite annoying, as it is thus not possible to buy an aftermarket PS as many do for Niam and Linn DACs, or buy a battery supply that suits the voltage it requires.
 

 
I just blew £2.7K on a PS Audio PS10 power regenerator as I know the mains supply in my apartment is inconsistent / rough. I also fitted a new Radial line from the consumer unit with a 20A trip and 32A wires. 4 days hacking walls and stuff. Ha Ha, it sounds better, so I do see the relevancy of a better mains and also a better power supply. Having said that, I think at 20K the C1 should have an awesome PS already.
 
From what David is saying, I think it is the sound he is after, i.e. natural, smooth, more organic, less hifi. He has the 'ear' as I call it, and knows what sounds right. On that we are 100% in agreement. When I brought my KGSShv round and we listened to my amp and his BHSE with those NOS Mullards we were like 'pigs in ****'.....
 
Karlgerman, I would try and demo a TotalDAC to see what R-2R has to offer. You could sell your Esoteric gear and buy a Dual I reckon with the money. You may not like the sound, but I am thinking you will. Those planar speakers you have are all about transparency and smoothness.  The whole way an R-2R does the translation is totally different. It is the old voltage to current route, bit perfect. DS does it with computer power i.e. guesses. This is only part of the story though, it still requires superb design, a great power supply and a true pre-amplifier stage, not some pop amp botch like many DACs have. Your Esoteric has everything a DS design could have, it juste uses a different method to extract the music.

 

[karlgerman]

My buddies now switched back from Pavane to Totaldac, so i will get this exemplar for testing. (the first they had, had a technical defect)
The summit X is an example for transparency but not smoothness? They could sound surprising aggressive--depending on recording quality.
I heard r2r´s and i´m not sure they will outperform my D02. will see.

 

[David1961]

The Burr Brown chipset is not, really not the newest one, but the pricing  of an C1 is.
I was talking about this to my technical orientated friend and he said this is overpriced.
As the developers originate from GOLDMUND everyone should know the marked segment they aiming at!

If it sound´s good it sound good, no matter. But really, over 10.000 for a power supply is a warning sign for me.

I've had the K-01 for four years, to which I've been very happy with, however after auditioning the C1 I not only found it to be built as good if not better than the K-01, but it sounded better too, IMO.

Now your friend said that CH P is overpriced, but if that's the case then so is Esoteric, well at least in the UK because Esoteric gear from PriceJapan is less than half the cost of what it is in the UK.

I believe what you should do, is rather than take notice of your friend, audition CH P gear then make your own judgment.

 

[karlgerman]

Same for ESOTERIC, you are absolute right!
 
Tec specs are different, power sup for example does not need an extra, i have 4 included and a 16x 32 bit newest chipset. Goldmund is known to sell old wine in new bottles.
Fist step to get any information about equipment is to ask someone who might know more details, specially on "inner values" than me.
The answer will not be 100% truth, but as a first step good enough for me.
 
 
True, thats tec spec blabla is all just on paper.
 
Thats why i start with a Totaldac for testing. The look of the Box is not so important for me.

 

[astrostar59]

  The Burr Brown chipset is not, really not the newest one, but the pricing  of an C1 is.
 

Karlgerman
 
On this subject, I remembered. Audio Note UK about 10 years ago tested shed loads of chips for R-2R and found the Analogue Devices 1865 K chip sounded the best. This chip is at that time already 15 years old. I is not necessarily the newest chips that sound the best.
 
Anyway, Audio Note bought up pretty much the whole world supply of that chip. They use it in the DAC 2.1 right up to the DAC 5 Signature and the Fifth Element (which foists £120K).
 
Another thought on the DAS v R-2R debate. I found a video on YouTube by the head scientist who worked for the top 2 chip manufacturers in the US in Delta-Sigma development. He said in the seminar video, that incredibly they used measuring equipment only to test the best chips right up till 2006. Only after that did they start listening to the chip sets for audio integrity. They also hires audiophiles with 'golden ears' as he called it, to further develop better chips. 
 
Basically, this says to me the digital path many manufacturers have taken in 'spec' and what 'scientifically' sounds best.
 
Also check out the TotalDAC story, and how Vincent Brient started the company, and why.

 

[RubenV]

Tomorrow I will audition the dCS Scarlatti(and probably the Rossini) and EMM Labs DAC2x and compare my own Paganini dac with these. I hope differences with the Paganini are huge so I can convince myself it is worth the investment.

 

[astrostar59]

  Tomorrow I will audition the dCS Scarlatti(and probably the Rossini) and EMM Labs DAC2x and compare my own Paganini dac with these. I hope differences with the Paganini are huge so I can convince myself it is worth the investment.

Interesting. Listening to various Dacs over the years, many near this price point, I am coming to believe you can get very near the top of the digital tree with a modded DIY option, or buy from a smaller manufactures direct (avoid the dealer 100% markup).
 
The other really irritating thing, is many Japanese high-end gear is 200% more expensive in the UK. makes no sense. Also many US built DACs are the same in dollars and sterling i.e. 50% more expensive.
 
I have tiny budgets compared to some, so I have gone the DIY / kit route and bought boutique parts and second hand parts. 
 
However, if I had 20K+ to spare, I would probably buy and end game DAC like the Audio Note Special or the C1 Precision if I wanted SS as opposed to tubes. 
 
Regardless, I am thinking once you get to 20K DACs you are into 'flavours' and the differences are less marked. There is of course the 2 paths: Delta-Sigma and R-2R, that in themselves create another flavour.
 
The other aspects is a DAC at 20K level needs a really good pre-amplifier section and analogue volume to then miss out the pre-amplifier between the Power amp. That gives a big boost in dynamics and detail (if designed correctly). 
 
That Emm Lab is a bit of a bargain right? I have not heard it, only read the responses from owners. I am thinking the TotalDAC dual is the bargain high-end DAC for 2015, and of course, I have a soft spot for the Audio Note kits..... that new DAC 5.1 looks mighty nice for 5.6K US.
 

 

 

[bigfatpaulie]

 
Interesting. Listening to various Dacs over the years, many near this price point, I am coming to believe you can get very near the top of the digital tree with a modded DIY option, or buy from a smaller manufactures direct (avoid the dealer 100% markup).
 
The other really irritating thing, is many Japanese high-end gear is 200% more expensive in the UK. makes no sense. Also many US built DACs are the same in dollars and sterling i.e. 50% more expensive.
 
I have tiny budgets compared to some, so I have gone the DIY / kit route and bought boutique parts and second hand parts. 
 
However, if I had 20K+ to spare, I would probably buy and end game DAC like the Audio Note Special or the C1 Precision if I wanted SS as opposed to tubes. 
 
Regardless, I am thinking once you get to 20K DACs you are into 'flavours' and the differences are less marked. There is of course the 2 paths: Delta-Sigma and R-2R, that in themselves create another flavour.
 
The other aspects is a DAC at 20K level needs a really good pre-amplifier section and analogue volume to then miss out the pre-amplifier between the Power amp. That gives a big boost in dynamics and detail (if designed correctly). 
 
That Emm Lab is a bit of a bargain right? I have not heard it, only read the responses from owners. I am thinking the TotalDAC dual is the bargain high-end DAC for 2015, and of course, I have a soft spot for the Audio Note kits..... that new DAC 5.1 looks mighty nice for 5.6K US.
 

 

 
 
It's about this was released.  How long was this DAC "under wraps"?  It's about time we talk about the elephant in the room!

 

[RubenV]

 
Interesting. Listening to various Dacs over the years, many near this price point, I am coming to believe you can get very near the top of the digital tree with a modded DIY option, or buy from a smaller manufactures direct (avoid the dealer 100% markup).
 
The other really irritating thing, is many Japanese high-end gear is 200% more expensive in the UK. makes no sense. Also many US built DACs are the same in dollars and sterling i.e. 50% more expensive.
 
I have tiny budgets compared to some, so I have gone the DIY / kit route and bought boutique parts and second hand parts. 
 
However, if I had 20K+ to spare, I would probably buy and end game DAC like the Audio Note Special or the C1 Precision if I wanted SS as opposed to tubes. 
 
Regardless, I am thinking once you get to 20K DACs you are into 'flavours' and the differences are less marked. There is of course the 2 paths: Delta-Sigma and R-2R, that in themselves create another flavour.
 
The other aspects is a DAC at 20K level needs a really good pre-amplifier section and analogue volume to then miss out the pre-amplifier between the Power amp. That gives a big boost in dynamics and detail (if designed correctly). 
 
That Emm Lab is a bit of a bargain right? I have not heard it, only read the responses from owners. I am thinking the TotalDAC dual is the bargain high-end DAC for 2015, and of course, I have a soft spot for the Audio Note kits..... that new DAC 5.1 looks mighty nice for 5.6K US.
 

 

I like the DIY route, I went this route with my speakers, but I found it difficult to audition these DIY dacs. I am convinced they offer an excellent price/performance ratio, but when spending 5k I really need to audition it. Since DAC tech is changing rapidly, the resale value is also important for me.
 
I also share you opinion regarding the fact that once you arrive at a certain price point, it is a matter of taste. I believe these DAC's are all excellent, even the Paganini I own, but you might prefer the house sound of one brand over another. Adding the Omega preamp recently I found myself surprised how much better my system sounded. Getting these increases of SQ performance are rather addictive. So here I am, auditioning "better" DAC's tomorrow. The dealer already told me that some people prefer the Emm Labs over the dCS gear, can't wait to experience that myself.
 
Since the volume control of the Paganini is done in the digital domain (if I recall it correctly) it sounds better with the Omega Preamp. Keeping the preamp in the system is mandatory for me, since I use these fronts in my multichannel setup as well.
 
What kind of DAC have you built for yourself?
 
@bigfatpaulie : I wonder how the DAC 5.1 siganture compares to your Bricasti m1 (which is also a very nice dac) let us know when you have built one.

 

[preproman]

  I like the DIY route, I went this route with my speakers, but I found it difficult to audition these DIY dacs. I am convinced they offer an excellent price/performance ratio, but when spending 5k I really need to audition it. Since DAC tech is changing rapidly, the resale value is also important for me.
 
I also share you opinion regarding the fact that once you arrive at a certain price point, it is a matter of taste. I believe these DAC's are all excellent, even the Paganini I own, but you might prefer the house sound of one brand over another. Adding the Omega preamp recently I found myself surprised how much better my system sounded. Getting these increases of SQ performance are rather addictive. So here I am, auditioning "better" DAC's tomorrow. The dealer already told me that some people prefer the Emm Labs over the dCS gear, can't wait to experience that myself.
 
Since the volume control of the Paganini is done in the digital domain (if I recall it correctly) it sounds better with the Omega Preamp. Keeping the preamp in the system is mandatory for me, since I use these fronts in my multichannel setup as well.
 
What kind of DAC have you built for yourself?
 
@bigfatpaulie : I wonder how the DAC 5.1 siganture compares to your Bricasti m1 (which is also a very nice dac) let us know when you have built one.

@RubenV it will be interesting to hear your impressions.  I always wanted to get one of those DCS DACs in my place so I can hear it on my system.  So I will live vicariously through you on this one.

 

[RubenV]

 
@RubenV it will be interesting to hear your impressions.  I always wanted to get one of those DCS DACs in my place so I can hear it on my system.  So I will live vicariously through you on this one.

Haha thanks! I will post an update this weekend regarding the listening experience.

 

[bigfatpaulie]

  I like the DIY route, I went this route with my speakers, but I found it difficult to audition these DIY dacs. I am convinced they offer an excellent price/performance ratio, but when spending 5k I really need to audition it. Since DAC tech is changing rapidly, the resale value is also important for me.
 
I also share you opinion regarding the fact that once you arrive at a certain price point, it is a matter of taste. I believe these DAC's are all excellent, even the Paganini I own, but you might prefer the house sound of one brand over another. Adding the Omega preamp recently I found myself surprised how much better my system sounded. Getting these increases of SQ performance are rather addictive. So here I am, auditioning "better" DAC's tomorrow. The dealer already told me that some people prefer the Emm Labs over the dCS gear, can't wait to experience that myself.
 
Since the volume control of the Paganini is done in the digital domain (if I recall it correctly) it sounds better with the Omega Preamp. Keeping the preamp in the system is mandatory for me, since I use these fronts in my multichannel setup as well.
 
What kind of DAC have you built for yourself?
 
@bigfatpaulie : I wonder how the DAC 5.1 siganture compares to your Bricasti m1 (which is also a very nice dac) let us know when you have built one.

 
 
I wish!  I am just waiting on someone else to make the commitment  I don't have a lot of experience with dCS but I have had the Debussy at home for about a month and personally, I didn't care for it.  I found it fatiguing, sterile and lacking musicality - but that's me.  It is a sexy looking unit, however.  I haven't heard the higher-end dCS units, but I can appreciate your dealers comments
 
As soon as I have one built, you'll know! 

 

[Yoga]

  Tomorrow I will audition the dCS Scarlatti(and probably the Rossini) and EMM Labs DAC2x and compare my own Paganini dac with these. I hope differences with the Paganini are huge so I can convince myself it is worth the investment.

I've not heard it myself (yet - incoming as we speak), but the Lumin A1 replaced the EMM Labs DAC2x in someones (TOTL) system from another forum. Emphatically, I might add. Also stated that he wasn't the only one who replaced expensive stacks with it after home auditions.
 
If you're on the hunt, it's worth auditioning. There is a newer flagship model, the S1, available now. Not as analogue sounding, but supports QuadDSD. The same guy states that it's more about system synergy than anything. Not much speak of the Lumin over here, but lots of amazing feedback elsewhere. Hence I bought one :¬)