[OCC7N]

£20K is a ridiculous sum of money.

Just the idea of it cost more than the headphone itself is out of my reach. I could see the Enleum for both speakers and headphone. It is a great value if you think about this amp. When we reach higher than imagination in price ranges, we are at a class were only few can justify things, because they have the trained mind and ear for that specific sound they want. Fair price or not, some people really enjoy this hobby at a higher level. Some people don´t know what to listen for and don´t justify the price, because they are maybe not that trained. Good sound needs trained ears, to hear the potential at that level.

 

[Roybenz]

Still love my moon 430had with the sus. Rumbles really low. But I’m considering going for an envy performance or cayin ha300b mk2, for a different sound, can’t decide. It’s half the price for the cayin. Is the envy worth double the price ?

 

[George Hincapie]

Just the idea of it cost more than the headphone itself is out of my reach. I could see the Enleum for both speakers and headphone. It is a great value if you think about this amp. When we reach higher than imagination in price ranges, we are at a class were only few can justify things, because they have the trained mind and ear for that specific sound they want. Fair price or not, some people really enjoy this hobby at a higher level. Some people don´t know what to listen for and don´t justify the price, because they are maybe not that trained. Good sound needs trained ears, to hear the potential at that level.

I don't agree with that. Everyone is capable of hearing great sound - we don't need elitest talk. £20K is still a ridiculous sum of money. This hobby has lost it's perspective.

I am just as guilty. I've spent more than that. So I am not sure how to feel about myself

 

[tdx]

The thing about the Susvara though is that it will sound good to great on a lot of chains above say 2K and then scale up from there. I started on a lowly A90 and then scaled up (ok, WAY up ) from there. Now my chain is close to $60K (though through patient deal hunting I ended paying nowhere near that price) but I enjoyed each of the many many steps along the way, and with each of them the Susvara just sounded better and better. I mean I'm sure I could scale even higher if i had the budget and/or the inclination but the fact that I won't doesn't make me enjoy the Susvara any less. Even if I had stopped at say a 5K chain budget (not including the HP of course) I would still enjoy the Susvara, knowing that one day I would try to get better components...

 

[Polygonhell]

I was just saying that if we list all the great amps as being “best for Susvara” then it’s just a list of really great amps.

To a point yes, but you have to understand that the best amp for the susvara might not be the best amp for the Utopis for example. The utopia has a silly high sensitivity rating, so the amp has to be dead silent to sound black, I have amps where the background is perfectly black with everything but the Utopia. The Susvara for all it’s revealing of underlying source can actually hide pretty terrible noise floors in amps,
A Utopia need flea levels of power, so it can work really well with 45 Amps which will be well under 2 Watts, and not sound great with a Susvara.
That’s ignoring synergy, or just amp with weird topologies.
Same is true in the speaker world, comparing the best amp to put out 500W to one putting out 2W is nonsensical, there are a lot of compromises at either end of that spectrum, whether you make them depends a lot on what you value in reproduction, and what compromises you make with your transducers.

 

[Polygonhell]

£20K is still a ridiculous sum of money

Yes it is, and what you can spend is only going to go up.
$20K In a headphone system sounds rediculous, when you start, but your barely getting started in the world of 2 Channel at that, not that you can’t have a great system for less, but the Susvara is TOTL.
I said to a friend when I bought my first $1000+ DAC, it was hard to justify, but I’d spend $5K on a computer I didn’t need without thinking about it, value and cost are strange things.
What I’ll spend on a component has creeped up over the years, I’m at a lot more that that DAC now. When I got into 2 Channel decades ago I spent every penny and some I didn’t on equipment, my expenditures are MUCH bigger today, but it’s a much smaller part of my total expenditure.

 

[up late]

headphones used to be regarded as a way of experiencing 'high fidelity' sound at a fraction of the cost of a two channel system. obviously times have changed.

 

[Aetherhole]

The problem I’ve come across, first hand, is synergy. Just one component that is not up to snuff can really make the Susvara sound pretty uninteresting. An example from my experience, the Ferrum Oor + Hypsos, a widely accepted “budget” friendly option for the Susvara was limited by the DAC I had feeding it originally. I had used the Ferrum Erco prior to the Wandla being released and despite the Erco being kind of similar sounding, it was enough that after having the Ferrum stack (Erco, Hypsos, Oor) with the Susvara, I ended up selling off the Susvara. It had punch, subbass, but it was sharp and harsh on top and sterile in the mids, not to mention somewhat two dimensional.

You have to keep stepping up and up and up (and up) in order to start seeing what it’s really capable of. If you don’t, with even several thousand dollars invested in a “good” chain, you can end up really unimpressed with the Susvara, selling it off, like I did, and never looking back. Honestly, those people are missing out to some degree. Not saying the Susvara will be everyone’s cup-of-tea, but I think it is dismissed pretty quickly because of said experiences.

 

[thefitz]

I wonder what will happen if the Susvara has a significant drop in price.

The OG HE-6 culture it was very much like this one, perhaps not necessarily in this realm of price point (and how much gear like this existed back then anyway?). It was a very passionate, downright masochistic crew, much like us here. The consensus was you need extensive rigs with speaker amps and all sorts of things to get these headphones going. Spending scalar multiples of the cost of the headphone was simply the rule for about 10 years.

Then, the great fire sale of the HE-6SEv2 happened. All of a sudden, the Topping A90 was all that was needed to get the most out of the unit. If you asked about amp requirements, you would get a torrent of topping suggestions, to the point where the decade of tribal knowledge just vanished.

And of course, as soon as you bring up the A90, "what about the Jot?" "what about the A30?" "what about the Magnius?" And I got off the train when people were seriously asking about the Asgard 3.

 

[jlemaster1957]

You have to try a pre with the CFA3. But this otherwise tracks to my own case between some 45 rolling and the TM300B mostly.

@paradoxper I read this with great interest from you as earlier in the thread you were using/extolling the virtues of Melz 1578 NOS 6SN7 quads on the Freya+ as a pre-amp into CFA3, but more recently it seems you have sold the Freya+ and are now using a Supratek Cabernet DHT pre-amp with 300Bs as a pre-, still into the CFA3.

Did you get a chance to compare the Susvaras from the Freya+ with your upgraded tubes vs the Supratek with the 300Bs before you sold the Freya+?

It seems that the Supratek could provide an alternate upgrade path for those more interested to use the 300B in a pre-amp (with whatever else they use as a poweramp thereafter eg AHB2 or other) vs an AIO like the Envy. Not that I imagine there are many out there who have both to A/B compare!

 

[Malcyg]

It’s an ongoing and circular argument. Even if you ignore personal preferences, musical tastes, signal chain and other personal related variables, there seems to be no easy method of identifying what works and what doesn’t in any given scenario, not just Susvara. For some people, you may be better off getting a pair of SolP and calling it a day. SolP, imo, combines elements of Sus, 1266 and Valk into one easy to drive headphone and it sounds pretty good out of anything I have tried it with. It falls short of each of those phones in different areas, but is a nice comfortable universal all rounder and will sound good out of an empty tin can.

Other phones, including easy to drive cans like Utopia, can sound anywhere from decidedly average - even a bit ropey - through to excellent depending upon what is driving them and it has frustrated me no end trying to decipher and derive some kind of formula for it. I have failed. Even with flexible amps where you can vary things like the impedance, negative feedback, distortion etc don’t always give the results you expect at certain settings. Impedance for example is only a very rough guide at best.

The only opinion that matters is your own. One can get ideas on here within the budget that is appropriate and then, the only proper solution is to arrange a decent period home demo, though I accept that is not always easy to achieve.

 

[jlbrach]

the sad truth is it is a never ending game of chasing what we do not have...years ago I kept swearing to myself that if I just bought this new piece of equipment that would be it and I would be content...for a short time I was until I heard or heard of new equipment and I starting getting the itch again...I am not even so sure that I am hearing better anymore rather than just different because I have climbed pretty high up the mountain top these days...in truth I regard it more as a hobby these days because I certainly own equipment that cannot be bettered dramatically..but I also realize that I will never quite be satisfied and this will go on for me until I am too old to distinguish any longer and even then who knows lol....I have come a long way from the days of my youth where I bought a Craig tape deck that only played back cassettes and I got my very first album on cassette,the combined cost was 20 bucks!..chicago II....I still have the album and play it often,great album

 

[Roybenz]

It’s so true. Eventually one gets used to the sound, no matther what you have, even if you have the “best” setup, and you will search for a different signature than the one you already have and have gotten used to.

 

[SolarCetacean]

That's why I find it useful to have a lesser headphone for everyday listening and reserve your best headphones (be they the Susvara or anything else) to dedicated listening sessions. That way you approach the Susvara each time with fresh ears and get to rediscover how good it sounds over and over.

 

[chrisnyc75]

That's why I find it useful to have a lesser headphone for everyday listening and reserve your best headphones (be they the Susvara or anything else) to dedicated listening sessions. That way you approach the Susvara each time with fresh ears and get to rediscover how good it sounds over and over.

Agreed - I think having multiple headphones that vary in signature/presentation and multiple amps that drive them differently is key to avoid falling into the pitfall of the neverending upgrade hamster wheel. That's my theory today, anyway.