[thecrow]

You forgot to mention power conditioners, power distributors, grounding system, isolation system which can bring the total cost to 70-80k?

Oh and I almost bought the Niimbus based on your impressions with Susvara, but it’s a bit difficult to procure here so I went with Bakoon 13R back then.

and you reminded me, i forgot:

Ps: I think we’re both doing ok with our amps

 

[donato]

the answer is a qualified yes...the susvara needs a quality amp with a fair bit of power but you definitely do NOT need the EF1000...the Volot is a powerhouse and gets great reviews with the susvara and is affordable..a used bakoon 13r is affordable,the new Bliss is affordable and the CFA3 which I own is not only affordable but fantastic although a bit of a hassle to receive...good luck but remember a used susvara and top notch amp option need not cost more than 6500 dollars

I’ll piggy back on this. There are some (definitely not you jlbrach) who can only talk about how their setup works so well as though there isn’t another way. There are many paths to a great sounding setup…

Also, maybe what’s confusing to others is that we haven’t described recently what to expect when the Susvara is driven sufficiently…I vividly remember the first time I tried a speaker amp (in my case my Pass X150.5 coming from a Violectric V281) how much more expansive and open the sound was and how much more substantial the bass became. Consequently, if you aren’t driving them sufficientLy, they will sound more closed in and the frequency balance will be more forward…at least that was my experience FWIW.

AI has spoken about the best amp for Susvara for classical recordings:

With an unlimited budget and an emphasis on reproducing orchestral recordings, you have a number of options for amplifying the Hifiman Susvara headphones. Some popular choices include:

1. High-end standalone amplifiers: High-end standalone headphone amplifiers, such as the Woo Audio WA22, the Auralic Taurus, and the Cavalli Audio Liquid Gold, are all capable of delivering the power and performance needed to drive the Susvara to its full potential.
2. High-end integrated amplifiers: High-end integrated amplifiers, such as the McIntosh MA9000 and the Pass Labs HPA-1, are also capable of driving the Susvara effectively and can be paired with a high-end preamp or digital-to-analog converter (DAC) to create a complete high-end audio system.
3. Custom-built amplifiers: For those who want the ultimate in performance and customization, a custom-built amplifier may be the best choice. Custom-built amplifiers can be designed specifically to match the Susvara and can be optimized for the specific types of music you listen to.

Personally, my experience differs. I owned the WA22 and still own the HPA-1 and for my tastes, I do not find them to drive the Susvaras ”sufficiently.” That being said, my opinion doesn’t invalidate someone else’s experience/opinion and vice versa.

So what is someone who is new to this to do? If you can find others whose opinions on something you’ve heard correlate with your own, there is a greater likelihood that their opinion on things you haven’t heard will also more likely align with yours. On the other extreme, there are some whose opinion I find so misaligned with mine that I have blocked them because they provide so little value or interest to me.

 

[chesebert]

Looks like chatGPT still got more to learn from Headfi and those other websites.

 

[number1sixerfan]

I’ll piggy back on this. There are some (definitely not you jlbrach) who can only talk about how their setup works so well as though there isn’t another way. There are many paths to a great sounding setup…

Also, maybe what’s confusing to others is that we haven’t described recently what to expect when the Susvara is driven sufficiently…I vividly remember the first time I tried a speaker amp (in my case my Pass X150.5 coming from a Violectric V281) how much more expansive and open the sound was and how much more substantial the bass became. Consequently, if you aren’t driving them sufficientLy, they will sound more closed in and the frequency balance will be more forward…at least that was my experience FWIW.

This was my exact experience when testing speaker amps as well. More expanded, spacious sound and more authoritative bass. And that seems to be really consistent from people that have tried them.

Personally, my experience differs. I owned the WA22 and still own the HPA-1 and for my tastes, I do not find them to drive the Susvaras ”sufficiently.” That being said, my opinion doesn’t invalidate someone else’s experience/opinion and vice versa.

Agree with this as well. This is exactly what I was saying a few pages back when I mentioned that even a budget speaker amp can outperform a LOT of the average "good" headphone amps. Many headphone amps, even though they perform great with other cans simply don't have the power or current to perform well w/the Susvara. Meanwhile a budget speaker amp that's built well can drive the Susvara to it's full capability (synergy is another story). There are some excellent exceptions out there that are more affordable and can still do pretty well for the Susvara (GSX Mini, apparently the Ferrum, etc), but by and large, many just aren't built to drive a load like the Susvara. Most "headphone" amps that actually can are in the $5-10K range.

Also, I actually don't enjoy using speaker amps lol, I know I've mentioned them a lot, but mainly to present a budget option for people that may not want to spend $8k on an amp for similar performance. I hate the size, the heat, and most importantly having to access the back of the amp and switch box if you're actually using speakers as well. Very inconvenient overall imo, but can definitely be worth it.

 

[tesox]

ZMF Auteur Hybrid Solid pads are basically more-spacious, less-dense variant to the Eikon Hybrid pads:

Compared to the stock Harmony pads:

• More hardhitting and fatter in bass, fuller/warmer in upper mids, a bit less airy in treble.
• Somewhat less "arena-like" soundstaging.
• Much improved timbre - not artificial and diffuse-sounding.

Compared to the ZMF Eikon Hybrid pads:

• A bit less hardhitting and tight in bass, a bit more warm and open in upper mids, a bit more linear smoother treble.
• Larger dimensionality, otherwise the same style of soundstaging.
• Alike timbre.

While both Eikon Hybrid and Auteur Hybrid Solid variants measurably oscillate around tonal neutrality and yield excellent results timbrally, they differ a bit in overall presentation. Eikon Hybrids are somewhat more focused and dense while Auteur Hybrid Solid somewhat more loose and easygoing. I think that most people coming from the stock Susvara sound would prefer the more spacious Auteur Hybrids.

Auteur Hybrid Solid pads might very well become my go-to pads for Susvara, they are really good! They already belong to my top 2 along with the Eikon Hybrids.

NOTE: I am using these with removed dust covers.
NOTE: Take the time, especially with the Eikons, to subjectively match each pad with preferred headphone side/channel. The pads are not perfectly symmetrical and not mounting them appropriately to L/R side might yield worse wearing comfort as well as sonics.

I used the Auteur Hybrid Solids for around 6 month, because I liked the sound and comfort the most of all pads I tried.
After waiting impatiently for the different Caldera Pads showing up at ZMF, today I finally put the Caldera Thick (not Stock) pads on.
I was immediately hooked and recommend to everyone who liked the Auteuer Hybrid Solids to try these. I think the bigger inner diameter
and better centered cutout do the improvements. I hear a bigger stage, better timbre, more bass pressure and subbass.

 

[Nooborghini]

I’ll piggy back on this. There are some (definitely not you jlbrach) who can only talk about how their setup works so well as though there isn’t another way. There are many paths to a great sounding setup…

Also, maybe what’s confusing to others is that we haven’t described recently what to expect when the Susvara is driven sufficiently…I vividly remember the first time I tried a speaker amp (in my case my Pass X150.5 coming from a Violectric V281) how much more expansive and open the sound was and how much more substantial the bass became. Consequently, if you aren’t driving them sufficientLy, they will sound more closed in and the frequency balance will be more forward…at least that was my experience FWIW.

This is extremely insightful, thank you!
I did try my M15 last night and compared to the EF400, not sure if it was the R2R DAC vs DeltaSigma but it felt a bit wider, probably closer to my HEK v2. IIRC the M15 has lower power/current than EF400 so I could be imagining it, will need to spend more time. Not exactly sure yet how to explain my subjective experience scientifically but onto more reading…

I really enjoyed Sajit Amit’s take on the Susvaras vs other summit-fi cans review and the iCan review. Soundnews has a pretty expansive review on different speaker amps and what not which was very interesting to read which matches what you’re saying about how expansive it feels.

I did hear the EF400 is defective due to a phasing issue with the two dacs and maybe that’s what’s causing it but on my M15 it felt real good. I tried it on my UTWS5 to see what “improperly driven” sounds like and it definitely is a big difference between the M15 and UTWS5 minus the volume difference.

Personally, my experience differs. I owned the WA22 and still own the HPA-1 and for my tastes, I do not find them to drive the Susvaras ”sufficiently.” That being said, my opinion doesn’t invalidate someone else’s experience/opinion and vice versa.

So what is someone who is new to this to do? If you can find others whose opinions on something you’ve heard correlate with your own, there is a greater likelihood that their opinion on things you haven’t heard will also more likely align with yours. On the other extreme, there are some whose opinion I find so misaligned with mine that I have blocked them because they provide so little value or interest to me.

This might probably be the best option, just ignoring to prevent any friction. I just didn’t want to be rude by not responding. I don’t have a WA22 but I have a broken LD MK8 SE which needs to be repaired. I was thinking of restoring that for bought $1000 CAD and pre-ing it to the A90 D or a speaker amp… or just reinvest that into the iCan signature or a AHB2 (or the OOR). I think coming from the HD800, I do like my soundstage to be wider but do like to swap between more intimacy like the HD6XX gave me depending on my mood but overall my ideal uses are soundstage and imaging.

For FPS games I usually use my FH9 but sometimes I can’t tell how far they are so I usually have to guess based on my game sense. (More recently on the EF400 it’s beginning to be more difficult to determine distance).
For Music or any other immersive game I try to use my speakers due to how spacious it is and the T1E sound great but their timbre seems off (Compared to my HEK v2, now I notice it more than ever since I have the Susvara now. Kind of the reason why I was leaning towards the iCan Signature based on the features it comes with.
Currently I’m trying to decide between the normal iCan vs iCan Signature. Not much out there in objective or subjective thoughts. (Maybe I’m not searching properly)

Overall I think I made the right decision based on countless hours of researching then again I haven’t heard the Abyss AB1266 but based on what I’ve been reading and hearing, isn’t my jam based on the slightly recessed mids/timbre. I’m hoping maybe in a couple of years or this year I get to go to one of these events. Last event I went to was an eSports event to compete but that was many years ago in my “youth”.

This was my exact experience when testing speaker amps as well. More expanded, spacious sound and more authoritative bass. And that seems to be really consistent from people that have tried them.

Agree with this as well. This is exactly what I was saying a few pages back when I mentioned that even a budget speaker amp can outperform a LOT of the average "good" headphone amps. Many headphone amps, even though they perform great with other cans simply don't have the power or current to perform well w/the Susvara. Meanwhile a budget speaker amp that's built well can drive the Susvara to it's full capability (synergy is another story). There are some excellent exceptions out there that are more affordable and can still do pretty well for the Susvara (GSX Mini, apparently the Ferrum, etc), but by and large, many just aren't built to drive a load like the Susvara. Most "headphone" amps that actually can are in the $5-10K range.

Also, I actually don't enjoy using speaker amps lol, I know I've mentioned them a lot, but mainly to present a budget option for people that may not want to spend $8k on an amp for similar performance. I hate the size, the heat, and most importantly having to access the back of the amp and switch box if you're actually using speakers as well. Very inconvenient overall imo, but can definitely be worth it.

Yeah maybe hopefully in a few years HP amps can catchup and prices go down. Ideally I’d like to spend up to another $5000 USD for an AMP/DAC that will last me for several years. The reaching around seems like a very big hassle. My desk is pretty large but having a huge amp and having to get up and go around seems awfully inconvenient. Maybe I can put behind my monitors or something.

Could you quantify the upgrade from your previously owned examples in a percentage?
Based on your sig it seems like you moved onto E-Stats but have a Primaluna Evo 400 pre-ing into the Schitt Jot A or you swap between the two. (assuming swapping due to lack of “>>” and choice of adding “/“. Curious as you mention to have the AB1266, I imagine you drive it single ended off the Primaluna Evo 400 or does it drive off the Jot A?

Susvaras are 83db/mW while AB1266 88db/mW, figured they’d be in the sameish ballpark.

I used the Auteur Hybrid Solids for around 6 month, because I liked the sound and comfort the most of all pads I tried.
After waiting impatiently for the different Caldera Pads showing up at ZMF, today I finally put the Caldera Thick (not Stock) pads on.
I was immediately hooked and recommend to everyone who liked the Auteuer Hybrid Solids to try these. I think the bigger inner diameter
and better centered cutout do the improvements. I hear a bigger stage, better timbre, more bass pressure and subbass.

I was thinking of purchasing some fenestrated sheep skins from dekoni as an experiment. Have you tried them?
I find the stock pads make my skin itchy after awhile and my ears I guess hit the driver/pads often. I guess I got elf ears… I don’t remember this being a problem with the HEK v2 or maybe I’m misremembering.

 

[tesox]

I was thinking of purchasing some fenestrated sheep skins from dekoni as an experiment. Have you tried them?
I find the stock pads make my skin itchy after awhile and my ears I guess hit the driver/pads often. I guess I got elf ears… I don’t remember this being a problem with the HEK v2 or maybe I’m misremembering.

No sorry, I'm not a fan of Dekoni pads at all. Had some for other headphones a was never happy with either the sound or the build quality.
The other thing is that the Dekoni pads are even flatter then the originals and this is a no go for me, because I hate it when my ears touch
the driver covering, what was the case with the original Susvara pads.

 

[chesebert]

AB1266 is way easier to drive - not in the same difficulty class as Susvara.

 

[jlbrach]

I’ll piggy back on this. There are some (definitely not you jlbrach) who can only talk about how their setup works so well as though there isn’t another way. There are many paths to a great sounding setup…

Also, maybe what’s confusing to others is that we haven’t described recently what to expect when the Susvara is driven sufficiently…I vividly remember the first time I tried a speaker amp (in my case my Pass X150.5 coming from a Violectric V281) how much more expansive and open the sound was and how much more substantial the bass became. Consequently, if you aren’t driving them sufficientLy, they will sound more closed in and the frequency balance will be more forward…at least that was my experience FWIW.


Personally, my experience differs. I owned the WA22 and still own the HPA-1 and for my tastes, I do not find them to drive the Susvaras ”sufficiently.” That being said, my opinion doesn’t invalidate someone else’s experience/opinion and vice versa.

So what is someone who is new to this to do? If you can find others whose opinions on something you’ve heard correlate with your own, there is a greater likelihood that their opinion on things you haven’t heard will also more likely align with yours. On the other extreme, there are some whose opinion I find so misaligned with mine that I have blocked them because they provide so little value or interest to me.

I used to be a skeptic regarding the susvara and its power needs...I liked the susvara but didnt love it until I bought the bakoon 13r and all of a sudden a really appreciated it....recently received the CFA3 and it was like a light went off in my head..I finally realized how truly great a HP the susvara truly is...please dont get me wrong I am not suggesting you cannot enjoy the susvara with a lesser amp..I did...that said it really is something special with the proper chain

 

[donato]

I used to be a skeptic regarding the susvara and its power needs...I liked the susvara but didnt love it until I bought the bakoon 13r and all of a sudden a really appreciated it....recently received the CFA3 and it was like a light went off in my head..I finally realized how truly great a HP the susvara truly is...please dont get me wrong I am not suggesting you cannot enjoy the susvara with a lesser amp..I did...that said it really is something special with the proper chain

It is interesting isn't it...for those of who have heard what the Susvara can sound like a posteriori, but to try to convince someone who hasn't heard it yet a priori, it is understandable that some are skeptical of our subjective experience because on-paper-X-amp-has-more-than-enough-power-to-play-far-louder-than-I-need. It probably sounds like we're spouting religion to a non-believer/skeptic.

It does seem that some people are underwhelmed by Susvara when not well driven (My experience was a bit different...even with that V281 I had, I knew it was special already compared my HEK SE and then trying to maximize the performance of my Susvara is what led me down my personal amp rabbit hole so). I think what also contributed to some of that experience by others is that it is often said that the Susvara is a great all rounder, but it not necessarily the "best" at anything compared to other TOTL e.g. if you want intense bass, go Abyss. If you want slam, utopia. detail, a stat or ribbon, etc. Some may expect to be totally be blown away with some aspect and you may not find that depending on what ever else you've heard and comparing it to. For me it's definitely more of the gestalt or holistic experience provided by the Susvara that makes it the one I listen to the most.

 

[jlemaster1957]

It is interesting isn't it...for those of who have heard what the Susvara can sound like a posteriori, but to try to convince someone who hasn't heard it yet a priori, it is understandable that some are skeptical of our subjective experience because on-paper-X-amp-has-more-than-enough-power-to-play-far-louder-than-I-need. It probably sounds like we're spouting religion to a non-believer/skeptic.

It does seem that some people are underwhelmed by Susvara when not well driven (My experience was a bit different...even with that V281 I had, I knew it was special already compared my HEK SE and then trying to maximize the performance of my Susvara is what led me down my personal amp rabbit hole so). I think what also contributed to some of that experience by others is that it is often said that the Susvara is a great all rounder, but it not necessarily the "best" at anything compared to other TOTL e.g. if you want intense bass, go Abyss. If you want slam, utopia. detail, a stat or ribbon, etc. Some may expect to be totally be blown away with some aspect and you may not find that depending on what ever else you've heard and comparing it to. For me it's definitely more of the gestalt or holistic experience provided by the Susvara that makes it the one I listen to the most.

It is quite tantalizing reading all of your accounts of ‘Susvara at its best’. It is like reading a letter from a beautiful place one has never been, But can imagine, if only dimly. But it is enough to stimulate longing and then pursuit.

It reminds me of when I worked in Nepal, south of the Everest region. I realized early on that I did not have the capacity to summit Everest (29k feet), but I might get to the top of Kalapatar (18k feet). The latter was still jaw-dropping, if admittedly not the same as summitting (though I will never know how much different).

It seems that, as @Sajid Amit said in his Susvara review, that optimizing the Susvara experience is a sub-hobby of the hifi hobby- one may end up trying a series of lesser gears as one gradually pursues a more enjoyable experience. But I am wondering if I may - like I did in Nepal— achieve a ‘height’ that satisfies my personal desire while still realizing there is ‘more’.

I am happy I took the step to buy them and enter the journey. Even with my limited chain, there are glimmers of what may be experienced down the road, further “up”.

 

[chesebert]

No need to get suckered in with those reviews. Susvara is just a marginally better version of the original HEK but an order of magnitude more difficult to drive.

 

[audioguru1]

I used to be a skeptic regarding the susvara and its power needs...I liked the susvara but didnt love it until I bought the bakoon 13r and all of a sudden a really appreciated it....recently received the CFA3 and it was like a light went off in my head..I finally realized how truly great a HP the susvara truly is...please dont get me wrong I am not suggesting you cannot enjoy the susvara with a lesser amp..I did...that said it really is something special with the proper chain

Same. I tried a few amps, and they sounded fine and were even better than the 1000se. Even the Ferrum Orr, which is no slouch loses out to the CFA3. I (mostly) finished building a CFA3 and the sound is just stunning. It was quite a project. Need to get a case machined but its running and i'm listening to it. Whats unique about the CFA3? A stupid amount of output transistors. There are 14 per side. It apparently puts out 16 watts into 60 ohms. Want to try swapping the THAT340 for discrete parts, but it sounds so good as it is.

 

[audioguru1]

I used the Auteur Hybrid Solids for around 6 month, because I liked the sound and comfort the most of all pads I tried.
After waiting impatiently for the different Caldera Pads showing up at ZMF, today I finally put the Caldera Thick (not Stock) pads on.
I was immediately hooked and recommend to everyone who liked the Auteuer Hybrid Solids to try these. I think the bigger inner diameter
and better centered cutout do the improvements. I hear a bigger stage, better timbre, more bass pressure and subbass.

I'm very interested to read this! I had tried both the Auteur solid and Auteur perforated and the perforated were too thin in the bass region. Curious to read that even though the Caldera pads are perforated they have more bass than Auteur solid.

How did you land on thick vs stock?

 

[normie610]

Same. I tried a few amps, and they sounded fine and were even better than the 1000se. Even the Ferrum Orr, which is no slouch loses out to the CFA3. I (mostly) finished building a CFA3 and the sound is just stunning. It was quite a project. Need to get a case machined but its running and i'm listening to it. Whats unique about the CFA3? A stupid amount of output transistors. There are 14 per side. It apparently puts out 16 watts into 60 ohms. Want to try swapping the THAT340 for discrete parts, but it sounds so good as it is.

Speaking of CFA3 and transistors, I read on head case that Kevin has designed a beefed-up version with additional 4 transistors. It’s meant to drive not only Susvara and other hard to drive headphones but also speakers (his JBL M2 which apparently got sold already since it’s too big for his room). I don’t know whether anyone has attempted to build this yet.