[number1sixerfan]

Bad news, I don't think you'll hear a step up in SQ since that stack is already very transparent and the A90 has plenty of power. But also good news, you can also skip all the audio-nervosa associated with DAC/Amp pairings that people on this forum go on forever with once you prove this to yourself. When you get the "upgraded stack" you'll swear it'll be an improvement and most stop there as the differences are "too obvious" to bother with blind testing. But if you actually work on doing a careful level matched blind-test with a simple & cheap switch box to compare stacks - most likely you'll hear no difference (unless one component of any of the stacks are bad) and this can be a complete shock.

I've personally done this with my Susvara and many many amps, especially since 80% of the content on this thread is amps for Susvara. I was able to personally satisfy (along with six local audiophiles who over the months brought their own amps and blind tested with me) that there's actually very little mystery to properly amping a Susvara.

Note that this has been said by a few others on this thread here but they eventually get too much hate for this opinion and they get frustrated and leave, so I had to find out for myself and eventually saw their unpopular opinions were correct. The difference is very very few on this thread have ever went through a properly setup blind comparison between stacks. Since you mentioned you're a newbie and new to head-fi I wanted to have you consider this before you get bombarded with suggestions of much more expensive pairings as "upgrades" for your setup and we continue with the regular amp discussions.

Bias works in many ways, and there's an obvious amount in this post. That said, I do think you can very much enjoy the Susvara across a varying level of gear. I've done it myself with the Hugo 2 and GSX Mini--both excellent for their price range. But certainly, it's very easy to distinguish from that system and say a TOTL speaker or headphone amp + the DAVE or similar.

In any event, I am totally in support of being happy where you are and just focusing on enjoying the music. But suggesting that people stop at entry level equipment because they won't hear a difference otherwise is just flat out disingenuous. Lastly, I'm definitely a fan of A/B testing over time, but there are a lot of well known issues with short duration double blind tests.

 

[No Days Off]

Bias works in many ways, and there's an obvious amount in this post. That said, I do think you can very much enjoy the Susvara across a varying level of gear. I've done it myself with the Hugo 2 and GSX Mini--both excellent for their price range. But certainly, it's very easy to distinguish from that system and say a TOTL speaker or headphone amp + the DAVE or similar.

I started this journey with no bias, in fact with essentially no budget limit I would gladly pay for whatever is needed for increased SQ out of my Susvara. If anything I wished to actually hear those improvements in a true blind comparison so I can justify all those upgrades. That's also why over the course of many months six others came by to bring their gear so we can tease out those differences (one which included a Hugo TT2). Every single time they leave with the disconcerted look that a core belief was shattered. Some have sat four six hours in a relaxed listening state to mitigate the issues with "short" listening tests. And many have done it multiple times over weeks. In fact our hearing is so sensitive even a 0.1 db level mismatch in one system, it would be identified as better, more full, etc so out came a multimeter to bring the levels within 0.01db. This is why it's essentially useless to get subjective amp comparisons without a careful setup (and using an objective tool such as a multimeter to level match to this accuracy) as no one can compare within 0.01db by hand. In any case I'm getting essentially all the expected responses from my reply, and it wasn't really aimed at those who continue to hold on to their core beliefs but rather newbies who will continuously read they need $XXXX amp to get the most out of their Susvara. The suggestion to the newbies is to plant the idea in their head that with a bit of proper effort and careful level matched comparisons they can discover things for themselves that are much better than the impressions here that aren't done in this manner.

 

[DJJEZ]

I started this journey with no bias, in fact with essentially no budget limit I would gladly pay for whatever is needed for increased SQ out of my Susvara. If anything I wished to actually hear those improvements in a true blind comparison so I can justify all those upgrades. That's also why over the course of many months six others came by to bring their gear so we can tease out those differences (one which included a Hugo TT2). Every single time they leave with the disconcerted look that a core belief was shattered. Some have sat four six hours in a relaxed listening state to mitigate the issues with "short" listening tests. And many have done it multiple times over weeks. In fact our hearing is so sensitive even a 0.1 db level mismatch in one system, it would be identified as better, more full, etc so out came a multimeter to bring the levels within 0.01db. This is why it's essentially useless to get subjective amp comparisons without a careful setup (and using an objective tool such as a multimeter to level match to this accuracy) as no one can compare within 0.01db by hand. In any case I'm getting essentially all the expected responses from my reply, and it wasn't really aimed at those who continue to hold on to their core beliefs but rather newbies who will continuously read they need $XXXX amp to get the most out of their Susvara. The suggestion to the newbies is to plant the idea in their head that with a bit of proper effort and careful level matched comparisons they can discover things for themselves that are much better than the impressions here that aren't done in this manner.

list the gear you tried and what gear you own.

 

[FractalSound]

@No Days Off
@FooFighter
@LarsMan
@OneEyedHito
@number1sixerfan

All, thanks a lot for sharing your setups and recommendations! Although I came from a communications background, I have been largely working in the digital field. Analog audio, SQ are something I've never put a lot of thought into until now. I have been watching YouTube videos from Abyss Labs boss Joe Skubinski and a couple of his engineers and found them thought-provoking. In one of the videos ( ) Joe recommended a book called "This is Your Brain on Music" by Daniel Levitin as being very insightful. I'm in the process of going over that book (and maybe a few others) so I can put a more realistic structure to this hobby and not let it run wild and become some sort of blind pursuit. Another YouTube series that I find insightful is between Youtuber Passion-for-sound and Chord's boss Rob Watts (). You guys can check it out whenever you have a chance.

In the end, all the audiophile phrases (staging, image, transparent, dynamic, revealing, etc) are our brain's constructions of the timing delays and volume differences of the audio signals received by our left and right ears. So the pursuit of better SQ is also a process of better understanding our own limitations

Based on what I've learned to understand so far, I think I'll focus more on noise isolation, signal-to-noise ratio and the timing of the DAC/AMP. I agree that output power from an amp probably shouldn't be the key performance indicator of SQ.

 

[No Days Off]

list the gear you tried and what gear you own.

Too long to list, I went deep in the rabbit hole for a few years before coming back out. Mostly everything boutique and high end sold - except the Susvara's. The Susvara's are worth it and transducer designs keep improving.

I have a local dealer with lots of high end gear and buy mostly used and sell used so not a huge $$$ expense to try things.
DAC's from mid-range to boutique R2R (HoloAudio) to custom FPGA "more taps" DACS from Chord.
Amps, most of the ones recommended here, either owned or borrowed.

 

[LarsMan]

I started this journey with no bias, in fact with essentially no budget limit I would gladly pay for whatever is needed for increased SQ out of my Susvara. If anything I wished to actually hear those improvements in a true blind comparison so I can justify all those upgrades. That's also why over the course of many months six others came by to bring their gear so we can tease out those differences (one which included a Hugo TT2). Every single time they leave with the disconcerted look that a core belief was shattered. Some have sat four six hours in a relaxed listening state to mitigate the issues with "short" listening tests. And many have done it multiple times over weeks. In fact our hearing is so sensitive even a 0.1 db level mismatch in one system, it would be identified as better, more full, etc so out came a multimeter to bring the levels within 0.01db. This is why it's essentially useless to get subjective amp comparisons without a careful setup (and using an objective tool such as a multimeter to level match to this accuracy) as no one can compare within 0.01db by hand. In any case I'm getting essentially all the expected responses from my reply, and it wasn't really aimed at those who continue to hold on to their core beliefs but rather newbies who will continuously read they need $XXXX amp to get the most out of their Susvara. The suggestion to the newbies is to plant the idea in their head that with a bit of proper effort and careful level matched comparisons they can discover things for themselves that are much better than the impressions here that aren't done in this manner.

So you're saying that there is no difference in sound between a Topping A90 and an Auris Nirvana, and I'm just imagining any difference? If so, I can understand why you might be met with hostility by some....

 

[No Days Off]

All, thanks a lot for sharing your setups and recommendations! Although I came from a communications background, I have been largely working in the digital field.

Since you work in the digital field I highly recommend watching this whole video:



At the 20:30m mark he addresses timing directly, and why timing is simply not an issue. He has a very good demonstration, using all analog gear at that section that demonstrates the fallacy that timing needs improvement with 44.1khz sample rate. The timing resolution is essentially infinite within the bandlimited range of half nyquist. Unlike the videos from Abyss or Chord, there is no manufacturer bias or interest here, just pure basic DSP theory you can get in any college level DSP course.

 

[No Days Off]

So you're saying that there is no difference in sound between a Topping A90 and an Auris Nirvana, and I'm just imagining any difference? If so, I can understand why you might be met with hostility by some....

The Auris Nirvana has high output impedance and will definitely cause a different sound signature on dynamic drivers with non linear impedance response than the near 0 output impedance of the topping A90. Additionally the tube amp may introduce audible distortion. So in this case there can certainly be a difference with a level matched blind test with dynamic headphones (different sound signature from non linear impedance response), or planar (if the distortions are audible). The point is there is no magic to why they sound different, it's much explained when you dive into it.

 

[number1sixerfan]

I started this journey with no bias, in fact with essentially no budget limit I would gladly pay for whatever is needed for increased SQ out of my Susvara. If anything I wished to actually hear those improvements in a true blind comparison so I can justify all those upgrades. That's also why over the course of many months six others came by to bring their gear so we can tease out those differences (one which included a Hugo TT2). Every single time they leave with the disconcerted look that a core belief was shattered. Some have sat four six hours in a relaxed listening state to mitigate the issues with "short" listening tests. And many have done it multiple times over weeks. In fact our hearing is so sensitive even a 0.1 db level mismatch in one system, it would be identified as better, more full, etc so out came a multimeter to bring the levels within 0.01db. This is why it's essentially useless to get subjective amp comparisons without a careful setup (and using an objective tool such as a multimeter to level match to this accuracy) as no one can compare within 0.01db by hand. In any case I'm getting essentially all the expected responses from my reply, and it wasn't really aimed at those who continue to hold on to their core beliefs but rather newbies who will continuously read they need $XXXX amp to get the most out of their Susvara. The suggestion to the newbies is to plant the idea in their head that with a bit of proper effort and careful level matched comparisons they can discover things for themselves that are much better than the impressions here that aren't done in this manner.

You're getting the expected responses for obvious reasons. I'm not here to be contentious or argue just to argue. But again, there's quite a bit that you've mentioned that totally suggests that the "testing" you and your friends have done is quite unreliable. I.e. even outside of the issues with double blind testing, 4-6 hours in a 'relaxed listening' (which btw is also a very short duration) as a data point has its own issues.

Not to open an even larger can of worms, but unless you have a sound engineer and qualified research scientist to define a well designed study/experiment that accounts for bias, your "testing" just isn't what you think it is. However, if you and your friends don't hear a difference between mid-to high end ranges of gear, that's totally cool. At the end of the day, that saves you a lot of money and certainly the sooner you get to your own end game, the more joy you'll find imo.

But to suggest to "newbies" that there's no difference as some sort of absolute fact based on the testing you've described is just misleading, hence the responses you're getting. And again for the last time, someone can TOTALLY be happy with solid performing, affordable mid-fi gear with the Susvara. I've been that person and could easily live with that type of setup if needed or if I wanted to.

 

[No Days Off]

You're getting the expected responses for obvious reasons. I'm not here to be contentious or argue just to argue. But again, there's quite a bit that you've mentioned that totally suggests that the "testing" you and your friends have done is quite unreliable. I.e. even outside of the issues with double blind testing, 4-6 hours in a 'relaxed listening' (which btw is also a very short duration) as a data point has its own issues.

Even if the testing isn't done perfect enough to be in a peer reviewed science publication, it's quite a lot less biased than non level matched sighted tests that most do. In any case, you can either believe that somehow blinding listening to level-matched gear is somehow erasing these obvious difference people claim they hear that it'll now take more than 4-6 hours of listening to tease out the difference or the fact that most well designed and measured uncolored gear with similar output impedances and enough power to drive a transducer undistorted sounds so similar when you don't know which stack you're listening to that even 6 hours of careful listening can't discern them.

Anyone with a bit of effort can test this themselves, and while many posters say the differences are immediately obvious (and thus spend no more than an hour or two on the effort) they can also do it over weeks or months if they wish.

But to suggest to "newbies" that there's no difference as some sort of absolute fact based on the testing you've described is just misleading

I'm suggesting they test themselves.

 

[FractalSound]

Since you work in the digital field I highly recommend watching this whole video:



At the 20:30m mark he addresses timing directly, and why timing is simply not an issue. He has a very good demonstration, using all analog gear at that section that demonstrates the fallacy that timing needs improvement with 44.1khz sample rate. The timing resolution is essentially infinite within the bandlimited range of half nyquist. Unlike the videos from Abyss or Chord, there is no manufacturer bias or interest here, just pure basic DSP theory you can get in any college level DSP course.

That's great video on D/A conversion! Thanks for showing it to me

The timing I was referring to is the timing differences of audio signals (analog) from a single sound source arriving at the left ear and right ear. So basically the timing differences of the same sound on the left and right channels. Through this subtle timing differences of the same sound arriving at left and right ears, our brains are able to derive the location of the sound source. and through that we build the sound images and sound stage in our heads. But I'm speaking more than I know for sure here I think I'd better go back and read my book first.

Topping A90 is said to be the best measurement SS amp... but are those exceptional measurements directly contributing to our subjective impression of SQ? Maybe not. And most of us seem to agree that the amp power is one of those "maybe-not" measurements. So what measurements are directly contributing to our perception of SQ? That's what i'm trying to find out.

 

[No Days Off]

That's great video on D/A conversion! Thanks for showing it to me

The timing I was referring to is the timing differences of audio signals (analog) from a single sound source arriving at the left ear and right ear. So basically the timing differences of the same sound on the left and right channels. Through this subtle timing differences of the same sound arriving at left and right ears, our brains are able to derive the location of the sound source. and through that we build the sound images and sound stage in our heads. But I'm speaking more than I know for sure here I think I'd better go back and read my book first.

Yes, this is true. Timing is incredibly important in localizing and thus presenting soundstage accurately. There is no magic to the timing that requires boutique methods or expensive gear and a good textbook implementation of even redbook audio has practically infinite timing resolution within the bandlimited domain. This is inherent in the math behind the reconstruction filters used but without fully understanding the math - is demonstrated well in the video I shared.

Topping A90 is said to be the best measurement SS amp... but are those exceptional measurements directly contributing to our subjective impression of SQ? Maybe not. And most of us seem to agree that the amp power is one of those "maybe-not" measurements. So what measurements are directly contributing to our perception of SQ? That's what i'm trying to find out.

Every amp will add some distortions or color to the unamplified analog output, the importance is to get them low enough so they aren't audible. the A90 should be well transparent, and if you can be lucky to borrow a very high end amp that's at the top of what's recommended on this forum you should test against it and find out for yourself. You may also find out you prefer an amp that is purposefully colored and distorted (some tube amps for example), in that case you aren't looking for as clean an amplified original signal as possible but one that's modified with audible amounts of color/distortion.

 

[LarsMan]

The Auris Nirvana has high output impedance and will definitely cause a different sound signature on dynamic drivers with non linear impedance response than the near 0 output impedance of the topping A90. Additionally the tube amp may introduce audible distortion. So in this case there can certainly be a difference with a level matched blind test with dynamic headphones (different sound signature from non linear impedance response), or planar (if the distortions are audible). The point is there is no magic to why they sound different, it's much explained when you dive into it.

Thank you for the explanation!

 

[LarsMan]

Yes, this is true. Timing is incredibly important in localizing and thus presenting soundstage accurately. There is no magic to the timing that requires boutique methods or expensive gear and a good textbook implementation of even redbook audio has practically infinite timing resolution (within picoseconds) within the bandlimited domain. This is inherent in the math behind the reconstruction filters used but without fully understanding the math - is demonstrated well in the video I shared.



Every amp will add some distortions or color to the unamplified analog output, the importance is to get them low enough so they aren't audible. the A90 should be well transparent, and if you can be lucky to borrow a very high end amp that's at the top of what's recommended on this forum you should test against it and find out for yourself. You may also find out you prefer an amp that is purposefully colored and distorted (some tube amps for example), in that case you aren't looking for as clean an amplified original signal as possible but one that's modified with audible amounts of color/distortion.

Indeed. I know that tube amps are colored (hence, tube rolling to get the right colors you want) and have more distortion than most good SS amps, but to me, that's a good thing. I don't have R2D2 or HAL sitting in my apartment listening to music, so I've never much cared about measurements - it's all about my ears and my brain, neither of which are as good as they used to be! And I love me a good tube sound!

 

[hifixman]

I use the Woo Audio WA33. I absolutely love it. It pushes the TCs and Susvaras very well. I have the standard edition (with upgraded tubes...see my signature below). Supposedly the Elite Edition sounds even better (and it should, given that it costs $15K, while the standard costs $8K)

Not a match for sus for all versions of wa33 in my opinion