[sahmen]

is there any other HP that engenders more debate about amp needs than the susvara?

I personally do not know of any other one, with the exception of the He-6, of course. Before the Susvara came on the scene, the He-6 was the undisputed #1 generator of "Amp derangement syndrome" I knew of. Even up till now, I am not sure whether the number of posts devoted to amps on this Susvara forum have surpassed those on the He-6 forum as yet or not. Hifiman made both of them, one after the other, and I have often wondered whether their inefficiency and amp pickiness were necessary for their sound quality, or not. Couldn't hifiman have made similar or even better sounding headphones in both cases, without also making it so difficult to find optimally matching amps for them?

Well, the audio-nervosa side of my brain argues that the inefficiency and amp pickiness were inevitable requirements for the great sound quality of the two cans. The conspiracy theorist side of my brain argues, on the contrary, that this particular inefficiency is just a consequence of Hifiman's vanity, and their desire to mystify audiophiles with two expensive headphones they can never stop obsessing about. From this second viewpoint, Hifiman could easily have made more efficient and less amp picky He-6s and Susvaras without sacrificing any thing about their sound quality... Well, there are some who think that the He-1000 series headphones (particularly the SE) have handily beaten the He-6 in the sq department. so the conspiracy theorist must have a point.

However, the "objective" third of my brain does not know what to think: sometimes it thinks neither the audio nervosa nor the conspiracy theory experts know what they're talking about.

By the way, I just made up "amp derangement syndrome" for laughs .

 

[jlbrach]

ADS!Audeze did manage to create a more efficient version of the LCD-4 but to be honest having owned them both I liked the more difficult to drive version....I was told at canjam by the abyss team that the difficulty in driving the 1266 is a by product of the sound they create so there is that

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Back in the day, the AKG K-1000 was also another headphone that needed a high powered amp to drive them properly.

I guess you can also count the RAAL SR1A as the conversion box also needs to be connected to a Speaker Amp.

 

[Tekunda]

I personally do not know of any other one, with the exception of the He-6, of course. Before the Susvara came on the scene, the He-6 was the undisputed #1 generator of "Amp derangement syndrome" I knew of. Even up till now, I am not sure whether the number of posts devoted to amps on this Susvara forum have surpassed those on the He-6 forum as yet or not in numbers. Hifiman made both of them, one after the other, and I have often wondered whether their inefficiency and amp pickiness were necessary for their sound quality, or not. Couldn't hifiman have made similar or even better sounding headphones in both cases, without also making it so difficult to find optimally matching amps for them?

Well, the audio-nervosa side of my brain argues that the inefficiency and amp pickiness were inevitable requirements for the great sound quality of the two cans. The conspiracy theorist side of my brain argues, on the contrary, that this particular inefficiency is just a consequence of Hifiman's vanity, and their desire to mystify audiophiles with two expensive headphones they can never stop obsessing about. From this second viewpoint, Hifiman could easily have made more efficient and less amp picky He-6s and Susvaras without sacrificing any thing about their sound quality... Well, there are some who think that the He-1000 series headphones (particularly the SE) have handily beaten the He-6 in the sq department. so the conspiracy theorist must have a point.

However, the "objective" third of my brain does not know what to think: sometimes it thinks neither the audio nervosa nor the conspiracy theory experts know what they're talking about.

By the way, I just made up "amp derangement syndrome" for laughs .

Could someone please explain to me what the technical reasons are that a headphone like the Susvara is inefficient?

 

[Articnoise]

Audeze have explained why we to achieve great SQ want more power and bigger amps than many would think, it’s because of loudness peaks. It is like I said in my last post not enough to see how many watts it can produce under constant load as that is not what is needed to get insensitive headphones like Susvara to sing. To get them to sing we want an amp which is powerful and has a big quality power supply. The amp doesn’t need to deliver more than a few watts as long as it have a lot more on tap e.g. big quality transformer and capacitor which can act very quick to produce transient peaks.

https://www.audeze.com/blogs/technology-and-innovation/sensitivity-impedance-and-amplifier-power

 

[sahmen]

That Audeze paper is interesting. I even followed the advice it gives (or seems to give) when I decided to pick their LCD-4 over the 4z. However, it is also interesting and ironic that one of the paper's playful tag-lines is "There's no such thing as the real world." According to the logic related to HP sensitivity and impedance that the paper seems to be developing, the LCD-4 (200 Ohms/97db) should have a better sound quality than the LCD-4z (15 Ohms/98db). I personally have no quarrel with that hypothesis, since I picked the 4 over the 4z in the first place. However, in the "real world," I have heard and read of many enthusiasts who prefer the sq of 4z over the 4. So who is "wrong" and who is "right" here?

I know the usual answer to this type of question is to declare nobody "wrong" or "right," and to rationalize both results via the "subjective preferences" card. But doesn't this move sound like a cop out when one has laboriously worked one's way through an elaborate, painstakingly executed, and sophisticated scientific argument attempting to prove why one result should be more "appropriate" than the other?

With all that said, I love my LCD-4, with all the milky-liquidity of its mid-range, the sombre and sumptuous "gravitas" of its mid and sub-bass, and the sparkly delights of its spaciously spread-out higher frequency details... But the good folk at Audeze just haven't succeeded in making me understand how all that audio goodness is related to the 200 Ohms impedance rating and the 97db sensitivity score, but this is a "lack of understanding" I can gladly live with, as long as the LCD-4 itself keeps the eargasms coming.

I suppose you could say something similar regarding my perspective on the Susvara as well

 

[Articnoise]

Could someone please explain to me what the technical reasons are that a headphone like the Susvara is inefficient?

I guess it's because of the gold.

“Well, apart from being a double magnet symmetrical configuration and using a thicker diaphragm than today’s thinner single-sided planar builds, the shared driver also uses extremely thin gold voice coil traces.

Gold is very resistant to oxidization and can be applied very thinly indeed. However, gold is very dense and has high levels of resistance, hence, a high field strength and some strong magnets were used to ensure the driver could be driven properly.”

BTW did you know that the HE-6 prototype was even harder to drive?

“Very early-generation HE-6 prototypes sounded great, but were so inefficient that they required full-size audio amplifiers as would normally be used to power loudspeakers. Fang Bian and his team felt realized customer might not accept such a constraint, so the felt it necessary to improve the HE-6’s efficiency to a point where the headphone could be driven by conventional headphone amplifiers (albeit powerful ones). The achieve this objective, the HiFiMAN team has given the production version of the HE-6 what Fang Bian terms a “super efficient magnetic circuit.”

 

[MacedonianHero]

The Real HSA-1b is a serious contender for killer ss amplifier to drive these headphones...plenty of drive, head-room and transparency! Love the combination!

 

[jlbrach]

it is interesting that they drive the susvara so well because the power rating is nothing extraordinary...I have heard it from several people now though that the 1B does a fantastic job with the abyss and susvara

 

[sahmen]

So between the HSA-1b and the Formula XI + Powerman (w/XLR inputs) and the Bakoon 13R and the Niimbus US4+, which one will be the real Boss of bosses in driving the Susvara, if anyone can tell, assuming a "perfect DAC" is also in the chain in all cases?

 

[ThanatosVI]

So between the HSA-1b and the Formula XI + Powerman (w/XLR inputs) and the Bakoon 13R and the Niimbus US4+, which one will be the real Boss of bosses in driving the Susvara, if anyone can tell, assuming a "perfect DAC" is also in the chain in all cases?

I'd add the Wells Milo to that list

 

[sahmen]

So between the HSA-1b and the Formula XI + Powerman (w/XLR inputs) and the Bakoon 13R and the Niimbus US4+, which one will be the real Boss of bosses in driving the Susvara, if anyone can tell, assuming a "perfect DAC" is also in the chain in all cases?

I'd add the Wells Milo to that list

Done!

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

So between the HSA-1b and the Formula XI + Powerman (w/XLR inputs) and the Bakoon 13R and the Niimbus US4+, which one will be the real Boss of bosses in driving the Susvara, if anyone can tell, assuming a "perfect DAC" is also in the chain in all cases?

I would also add the HifiMan EF-1000 (as this amp as been updated with the Susvara in mind) and the Trafomatic Primavera.

The WA33 may also be a contender ?

 

[thecrow]

So between the HSA-1b and the Formula XI + Powerman (w/XLR inputs) and the Bakoon 13R and the Niimbus US4+, which one will be the real Boss of bosses in driving the Susvara, if anyone can tell, assuming a "perfect DAC" is also in the chain in all cases?

good luck finding someone (let alone a few people) who have tried them all

 

[jlbrach]

if the answer turns out to be the hsa-1b that will make it the jack of all trades given that it is meant for the sr1a