[Slim1970]

I have been reading more about driving the Susvara from a speaker amp and there are always concerns about the risk of blowing a driver with the higher power and the need to turn volume down to zero for each use. Yet some folks even drive the headphone directly without a resistor box. When it comes to microdetail and transparency, Rob Watts has often mentioned that the DAVE sounds best driving headphones direct without an amp. I am now wondering how the additional resistors impact the transparency and what is lost by improved dynamics using a speaker amp and the trade offs. Some of the dedicated headphone amps have been praised for their straight wire transparency. For those who have compared speaker amps to the best headphone amps under $5K with DAVE and Susvara, what are the best choices? Or will an inexpensive speaker amp with intervening resistors still beat any headphone amp out there at any price and worth all the fuss using resistors and adapters??

I guess it comes down to how much transparency means to you. I use the Hugo 2 as my DAC since it can’t power the Susvara’s alone. I’m sure there’s a lose of transparency and details but I can’t really tell to be honest. Maybe with the DAVE those loses become more obvious when used in this manner.

I would love to experience a DAVE one day. It would be even better to listen to one in my setup to see if I could hear any sonic differences when used as a DAC. For now what I do know is the Susvara’s need power. Driving them straight from a DAC headphone output is unsatisfying to my ears. I would love to hear how the owners with a Chord Hugo TT2 feel about driving the Susvara’s out of the TT2’s amp outputs. If the results are satisfactory that’s one less item in the chain and ultimate transparency and details are maintained.

The HE-Adapter is a resistance box. Old receivers and integrated amps use a resistor on its headphone output to limit the power being feed to the headphones. I guess this is what the HE-Adapter is mimicking. I’m not sure what the actual resistance is on the HE-Adapter but it does provide some protection against blowing up what ever is connected to it. So it is an option, but once again there might be some signal lose by doing so. Going straight from speaker taps is the only way to maintain signal integrity I suppose.

 

[tunes]

I guess it comes down to how much transparency means to you. I use the Hugo 2 as my DAC since it can’t power the Susvara’s alone. I’m sure there’s a lose of transparency and details but I can’t really tell to be honest. Maybe with the DAVE those loses become more obvious when used in this manner.

I would love to experience a DAVE one day. It would be even better to listen to one in my setup to see if I could hear any sonic differences when used as a DAC. For now what I do know is the Susvara’s need power. Driving them straight from a DAC headphone output is unsatisfying to my ears. I would love to hear how the owners with a Chord Hugo TT2 feel about driving the Susvara’s out of the TT2’s amp outputs. If the results are satisfactory that’s one less item in the chain and ultimate transparency and details are maintained.

The HE-Adapter is a resistance box. Old receivers and integrated amps use a resistor on its headphone output to limit the power being feed to the headphones. I guess this is what the HE-Adapter is mimicking. I’m not sure what the actual resistance is on the HE-Adapter but it does provide some protection against blowing up what ever is connected to it. So it is an option, but once again there might be some signal lose by doing so. Going straight from speaker taps is the only way to maintain signal integrity I suppose.

After reading and listening to both Susvara and Abyss PHI it is possible that the best sound may be had with Susvara driven by a speaker amp. This seems to improve bass slam and brings it to the level of the Abyss PHI. Will need to hear this for myself but wondering if others have compared the Abyss PHI and Susvara driven by a speaker amp ??

 

[Slim1970]

After reading and listening to both Susvara and Abyss PHI it is possible that the best sound may be had with Susvara driven by a speaker amp. This seems to improve bass slam and brings it to the level of the Abyss PHI. Will need to hear this for myself but wondering if others have compared the Abyss PHI and Susvara driven by a speaker amp ??

The Phi’s don’t need as much power as Susvara’s do to sound their best. I was really nervous about damaging the Phi’s drivers when using it with my power amp.

 

[Mystel]

I've had the Phi for close to 2 years now , and the Susvara for about a year ish.
I posted somewhere in the Abyss thread about my journey to find a great amp for the Phi as driving it out of the DAVE directly lacks slam and excitement.
Long story short, i ended up with a EC studio after going through lots of amps ( GSX mk2, simaudio moon 430ha, ragnarok , v281, Liquid Gold, Milo and a couple more that ive had extended listening sessions at stores like the WA33/Headtrip). The Studio was the only amp that can keep up with the transparency and resolution of the DAVE to my ears.


As for the Susvara, i went through similar headphone amps, and tried 2 speaker amps ( first watt f7 , almarro 318b ).
From what ive experienced, the Susvara really benefits from the extra power. The slam , space and sense of rhythm is completely different when fed with enough power.
I personally still like the Susvara paired with the Studio(Spacious, extremely resolving). Not that this paring lacks dynamics, but i feel it doesnt have the dynamics compared to the speaker amps ive tried.But for now, I have yet to find a speaker amp that is transparent enough so im sticking to the Studio anyway.
Ive tried the Phis with the same speaker amps and they just dont sound as good as when paired with the studio. It was bloated, and the detail loss was too obvious. However, ive heard that some speaker amps like the simaudio moon 600i will do a great job with the Abyss, but ive yet to try.

For now, i can say that my amp journey for the Phi has ended, but i feel that im still a long way from the end of my amp journey for the Susvara.

 

[tunes]

I've had the Phi for close to 2 years now , and the Susvara for about a year ish.
I posted somewhere in the Abyss thread about my journey to find a great amp for the Phi as driving it out of the DAVE directly lacks slam and excitement.
Long story short, i ended up with a EC studio after going through lots of amps ( GSX mk2, simaudio moon 430ha, ragnarok , v281, Liquid Gold, Milo and a couple more that ive had extended listening sessions at stores like the WA33/Headtrip). The Studio was the only amp that can keep up with the transparency and resolution of the DAVE to my ears.


As for the Susvara, i went through similar headphone amps, and tried 2 speaker amps ( first watt f7 , almarro 318b ).
From what ive experienced, the Susvara really benefits from the extra power. The slam , space and sense of rhythm is completely different when fed with enough power.
I personally still like the Susvara paired with the Studio(Spacious, extremely resolving). Not that this paring lacks dynamics, but i feel it doesnt have the dynamics compared to the speaker amps ive tried.But for now, I have yet to find a speaker amp that is transparent enough so im sticking to the Studio anyway.
Ive tried the Phis with the same speaker amps and they just dont sound as good as when paired with the studio. It was bloated, and the detail loss was too obvious. However, ive heard that some speaker amps like the simaudio moon 600i will do a great job with the Abyss, but ive yet to try.

For now, i can say that my amp journey for the Phi has ended, but i feel that im still a long way from the end of my amp journey for the Susvara.

Do I assume all of the solid state amps are no good with Susvara??

 

[Slim1970]

I've had the Phi for close to 2 years now , and the Susvara for about a year ish.
I posted somewhere in the Abyss thread about my journey to find a great amp for the Phi as driving it out of the DAVE directly lacks slam and excitement.
Long story short, i ended up with a EC studio after going through lots of amps ( GSX mk2, simaudio moon 430ha, ragnarok , v281, Liquid Gold, Milo and a couple more that ive had extended listening sessions at stores like the WA33/Headtrip). The Studio was the only amp that can keep up with the transparency and resolution of the DAVE to my ears.


As for the Susvara, i went through similar headphone amps, and tried 2 speaker amps ( first watt f7 , almarro 318b ).
From what ive experienced, the Susvara really benefits from the extra power. The slam , space and sense of rhythm is completely different when fed with enough power.
I personally still like the Susvara paired with the Studio(Spacious, extremely resolving). Not that this paring lacks dynamics, but i feel it doesnt have the dynamics compared to the speaker amps ive tried.But for now, I have yet to find a speaker amp that is transparent enough so im sticking to the Studio anyway.
Ive tried the Phis with the same speaker amps and they just dont sound as good as when paired with the studio. It was bloated, and the detail loss was too obvious. However, ive heard that some speaker amps like the simaudio moon 600i will do a great job with the Abyss, but ive yet to try.

For now, i can say that my amp journey for the Phi has ended, but i feel that im still a long way from the end of my amp journey for the Susvara.

That's how I feel about the using the Susvara's. The Pro iCan can drive them just fine but out of my speaker amp the Susvara's sounds so much more lively and bigger.

 

[llamaluv]

Here are the speaker amps I own or have tried with the Susvara (I wrote about a couple of these earlier):

- First Watt J2 (25w, pure class A): Neutral-to-lean, amazingly clean, pinpoint imaging, amazing smooth separated treble, can't say enough good things about it. Much preferred to the GS-X mk2 which I sold after getting it. Has been getting more listening time than my WA33 for the past couple months.

- Pass Labs INT-150 (integrated, 150w): I only listened to this briefly but easily in the same league as the J2, with much the same characteristics. But a shade less lean, and fuller, more authoritative bass, I believe. Now I kind of want one.

- Bryston 2B LP (60w): Warm, laid back, big soundstage, rounded presentation; very interesting for the $300-$500 it costs used.

- Bryston 2.5B SST2 (125w): Sounds neutral and by the books. Has a low-gain setting which gives it just 3dB more than the 25watt J2, actually. It has a low input impedance which may affect its matchability with resistor-based passive preamps. I just received this to power the RAAL SR1a for now, so not much else to say on it yet....

 

[tunes]

Here are the speaker amps I own or have tried with the Susvara (I wrote about a couple of these earlier):

- First Watt J2 (25w, pure class A): Neutral-to-lean, amazingly clean, pinpoint imaging, amazing smooth separated treble, can't say enough good things about it. Much preferred to the GS-X mk2 which I sold after getting it. Has been getting more listening time than my WA33 for the past couple months.

- Pass Labs INT-150 (integrated, 150w): I only listened to this briefly but easily in the same league as the J2, with much the same characteristics. But a shade less lean, and fuller, more authoritative bass, I believe. Now I kind of want one.

- Bryston 2B LP (60w): Warm, laid back, big soundstage, rounded presentation; very interesting for the $300-$500 it costs used.

- Bryston 2.5B SST2 (125w): Sounds neutral and by the books. Has a low-gain setting which gives it just 3dB more than the 25watt J2, actually. It has a low input impedance which may affect its matchability with resistor-based passive preamps. I just received this to power the RAAL SR1a for now, so not much else to say on it yet....

So is the First Watt J2 the most transparent SS speaker amp you have heard and do you use a resistor box like the Hifiman HE Adapter? Is there a discounted price somewhere under the $4k MSRP?

 

[llamaluv]

So is the First Watt J2 the most transparent SS speaker amp you have heard and do you use a resistor box like the Hifiman HE Adapter? Is there a discounted price somewhere under the $4k MSRP?

Yes, I'd say the J2 is the most transparent amp I've personally heard with the Susvara. I don't use a resistor box between the amp and the headphones; I'd agree with the person who recently mentioned they think they're not needed (for the Susvara) for solid state amps at or under 200 watts. For volume control, I use a passive resistor-based pre-amp (Goldpoint SA4).

The J2 and probably a lot of other the other First Watt variants pop up pretty regularly on the used market (Audiogon, US Audio Mart, here...). The J2 can be had for low-$2000's.

It's also worth mentioning at this point that good speaker amps on the used market usually represent a huge bargain compared to powerful, high-end headphone-amps (Maybe that's more opinion than fact, but I don't think so ).

 

[tunes]

Yes, I'd say the J2 is the most transparent amp I've personally heard with the Susvara. I don't use a resistor box between the amp and the headphones; I'd agree with the person who recently mentioned they think they're not needed (for the Susvara) for solid state amps at or under 200 watts. For volume control, I use a passive resistor-based pre-amp (Goldpoint SA4).

The J2 and probably a lot of other the other First Watt variants pop up pretty regularly on the used market (Audiogon, US Audio Mart, here...). The J2 can be had for low-$2000's.

It's also worth mentioning at this point that good speaker amps on the used market usually represent a huge bargain compared to powerful, high-end headphone-amps (Maybe that's more opinion than fact, but I don't think so ).

Can I run this amp direct from the Chord DAVE balanced? Would prefer not to have a preamp.

 

[llamaluv]

Can I run this amp direct from the Chord DAVE balanced? Would prefer not to have a preamp.

I would say yes, so long as you're vigilant about not accidentally setting the digital volume up too high. But even then, 25 watts into 8 ohms (J2 and some other First Watt amps) is in the same ballpark power-wise as, say, a GS-X mk2 which is rated at 5 watts into 50 ohms.

I can't speak to the question of potentially losing "resolution" by using the DAC volume controls or if that's even a factor with the DAVE specifically.

 

[x RELIC x]

Can I run this amp direct from the Chord DAVE balanced? Would prefer not to have a preamp.

I can't speak to the question of potentially losing "resolution" by using the DAC volume controls or if that's even a factor with the DAVE specifically.

Measurably not an issue with the DAVE. Using it as a preamp is fine.

 

[tunes]

Yes, I'd say the J2 is the most transparent amp I've personally heard with the Susvara. I don't use a resistor box between the amp and the headphones; I'd agree with the person who recently mentioned they think they're not needed (for the Susvara) for solid state amps at or under 200 watts. For volume control, I use a passive resistor-based pre-amp (Goldpoint SA4).

The J2 and probably a lot of other the other First Watt variants pop up pretty regularly on the used market (Audiogon, US Audio Mart, here...). The J2 can be had for low-$2000's.

It's also worth mentioning at this point that good speaker amps on the used market usually represent a huge bargain compared to powerful, high-end headphone-amps (Maybe that's more opinion than fact, but I don't think so ).

Saw nice review of the First Watt F7 power amplifier. It delivers 20 watts per Chan and $2k

 

[tunes]

I have stated many times in this thread almost ad nauseam that I love the Soundaware P1 after trying a whole list of really good amps. P1 beats them all. It's probably one of the best amp in the $1500-$3000 or even higher price point. It's annoy because they have no US retailer, so you have to order from Asia. I was at a friend's house this weekend listening to his setup with Pro iCan and iESL driving the Susvara. The Susvara out of the P1 sounds better than the iFi stack. The amp is "only" $1500.

Can the balanced output of the Chord DAVE drive the P1 directly without a preamp and give a more transparent balanced output to the Susvara?

 

[tunes]

Saw nice review of the First Watt F7 power amplifier. It delivers 20 watts per Chan and $2k

Here is the review. https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2016...-and-f7-first-watt-amplifiers-by-nelson-pass/ It’s actually $3’K MSRP. The J2 is an older version with a bit more power but allows balanced input from the DAC which is not the case for the F7. I wonder if the Chord Dave via balanced out without a preamp to the F7 would be better or worse than the J2. The F7 uses fewer discrete parts and is $1,000 less expensive. So I don’t know if the balanced input option would make a significant difference in thE SQ for the Susvara. I would also feel better driving the Susvara direct off the amp without a HE resistor adapter for the most transparency.