[BassicScience]

I changed my statement to sound less abrasive and hopefully more clear.

I understand that you disagree and I'm sorry for triggering you by bashing a product that you enjoy (so do I). My intention is/was to provide factual information to the best of my knowledge while offering first-hand insight to help people make informed decisions and hopefully enhance others' enjoyment of a hobby we all love.

I didn't see any "factual information". I saw a defamatory statement with zero context, substantiation, or basis in logic. Interesting that you now say you "enjoy Roon". Maybe you should consider a political career.

I'm not sure why you are still so vehemently arguing against something that has been common knowledge in the industry for years. Regardless, please do not accuse me of misinformation. You are certainly entitled to your own beliefs and opinions, but not your own facts. Get a decent server and try it for yourself. You'll be amazed, I promise.

"Common knowledge in the industry". LMAO. Speaking of facts, maybe you should actually provide some instead of spewing platitudes. I have a decent server, and Roon, and it sounds f'ing glorious on either speakers or headphones with my system.

Not really. This statement is taken completely out of context. Sorry for bashing something you like. I didn't mean to loudly profess that Santa Clause isn't real or kick anyone's pony. Was just trying to help.

I'm not going to go back and read your edited post, but I saved another "nugget" from what you originally wrote: Roon's marketing tagline should read, "Roon Ready....to get $h1t shoveled in your ear holes." So, maybe you can supply some context for us on that?

 

[IanB52]

At this point there is plenty of understanding of what noise from computers can do to audio playback in terms of EMI/RFI, jitter, ground plane noise/loops, etc for those that want to know, and there also those who don't want to know. Probably better to let people live in their own knowledge bubbles.

 

[littlej0e]

I'm not going to go back and read your edited post, but I saved another "nugget" from what you originally wrote: Roon's marketing tagline should read, "Roon Ready....to get $h1t shoveled in your ear holes." So, maybe you can supply some context for us on that?

Lol...It's called satire. Which, again, you desperately try to take out of context to support your own puzzling agenda. Again. Quick question: are you a member of ASR by chance? Never mind. Don't answer that.

I didn't see any "factual information". I saw a defamatory statement with zero context, substantiation, or basis in logic. Interesting that you now say you "enjoy Roon". Maybe you should consider a political career.

"Common knowledge in the industry". LMAO. Speaking of facts, maybe you should actually provide some instead of spewing platitudes. I have a decent server, and Roon, and it sounds f'ing glorious on either speakers or headphones with my system.

Oh boy. Do you know what? You're actually right. I can't provide any factual, first-hand examples of any claims I made and it is all nothing more than unsubstantiated nonsense. You've absolutely busted me on all fronts. Sorry for challenging you and your beliefs as my claims were clearly wildly inaccurate and not based in reality. Cheers for bringing me to my senses and setting me straight.

Have a great evening, friend.

 

[801evan]

Sorry, but I whole-heartedly disagree. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, but this isn't even arguable. Roon has so many bloated processes running in the background (i.e. real-time library scans, meta data updates, etc.), the extra processes and CPU load absolutely murders SQ. That's why Taiko's implementation is so ground breaking for Roon.

I 100% agree. Too many ppl here are trying to control the narrative so it's good to have sane commentary here so don't get bullied.

 

[littlej0e]

I 100% agree. Too many ppl here are trying to control the narrative so it's good to have sane commentary here so don't get bullied.

Thanks, but it just isn't worth it. If you have to scratch, argue and beg just to establish simple facts, then the discussion is already pointless. Some people are just unassailably resolute in their beliefs and refuse to consider anything else, irrespective of the facts and anecdotal evidence presented.

All things considered, I'd rather go punch myself in the crotch for an hour. At least then my actions might yield something.

 

[801evan]

@littlej0e I used to have a hard time hearing the difference of laptop and pc of different configurations. I tried Roon vs all the other players available on windows and it's fair to see how strong the influence of the RAAT engine is and in not a good way. Shortcut to having a NUC with i3 with modified bios to make it only single CPU and turning off all the fancy stuff like hyperthreading, powered by LPS, and having a windows 2012 server install + audio optimizer + fidelizer pro and further tweaking on task manager to bring services processes down from 16 to 13 or 11. At this level, bringing services down a notch improves the sq a lot. In the end, I had a hard time figuring which audio optimizer setting sounded more transparent as they sound different but neither sounded ahead of the other. So I got a Pro-ject ds2t and it was clear as day it was better. And I particularly picked an album (MBV by My Bloody Valentine) that was end to end mastered in analog on Hi-Res and compared it to the redbook version and the CD was obviously more coherent, smoother and transparent. There was a lot of nuance on track 11 that on Hi-Res just sounded like static. On CD, one can hear how clear the distant drumming is from the bass guitar over the distorted guitar playing.

This is why I can drive Susvara on the Dave which makes many people upset with such a claim.

I appreciate your comments here so don't hesitate but also don't give mind to the others.

 

[BassicScience]

Thanks, but it just isn't worth it. If you have to scratch, argue and beg just to establish simple facts, then the discussion is already pointless. Some people are just unassailably resolute in their beliefs and refuse to consider anything else, irrespective of the facts and anecdotal evidence presented.

All things considered, I'd rather go punch myself in the crotch for an hour. At least then my actions might yield something.

Sorry to break it to you, buddy, but when @801evan comes to your defense, you've lost the argument.

And as an FYI, your offhand opinions hardly qualify as "facts".

At this point there is plenty of understanding of what noise from computers can do to audio playback in terms of EMI/RFI, jitter, ground plane noise/loops, etc for those that want to know, and there also those who don't want to know. Probably better to let people live in their own knowledge bubbles.

And this has what exactly to do with Roon... and its supposedly "sh!tty" sound quality?

 

[littlej0e]

@littlej0e I used to have a hard time hearing the difference of laptop and pc of different configurations. I tried Roon vs all the other players available on windows and it's fair to see how strong the influence of the RAAT engine is and in not a good way. Shortcut to having a NUC with i3 with modified bios to make it only single CPU and turning off all the fancy stuff like hyperthreading, and having a windows 2012 server install + audio optimizer + fidelizer pro and further tweaking on task manager to bring services processes down from 16 to 13 or 11. At this level, bringing services down a notch improves the sq a lot. In the end, I had a hard time figuring which audio optimizer setting sounded more transparent as they sound different but neither sounded ahead of the other. So I got a Pro-ject ds2t and it was clear as day it was better. And I particularly picked an album that was end to end mastered in analog on Hi-Res and compared it to the redbook version and the CD was obviously more coherent, smoother and transparent. There was a lot of nuance on track 11 that on Hi-Res just sounded like static. On CD, one can hear how clear the distant drumming is from the bass guitar over the distorted guitar playing.

Ah HA! Now this is a conversation!!!

I would love to hear your thoughts as to why the redbook CDs sound better. I have precious little experience with CDs as I am almost completely digital, but...quick story time with littlej0e:

I purchased an old CD player/DAC combo about a year ago (I only wanted the DAC, but I had to buy them as a package). For grins, I tossed a random CD in the tray, mostly to verify the CD player actually worked before I went to try and sell it. I was immediately struck by the staging and imaging. Everything also seemed to present much larger and overall quite differently compared to the digital tracks I was used to. I assumed there was an unknown variable setting on the CD/DAC rig that was causing this, so I poured through the owners manual - nope. Everything was set perfectly and working as intended.

I A/B'd the CD against my locally stored AIFF digital file and the results were unmistakable: the CD had noticeably more depth and width of stage, slightly better sound isolation and overall dramatically different presentation. I then proceeded to raid my mother-in-law's entire pre-y2k CD collection, playing one after another, comparing them with their digital counterparts (yes, yes, I realize both are digital files. Don't be pedantic...you know who you are!) with almost universally the same result. I needed an answer.

Turns out my old CD/DAC combo has a fancy custom fiber optic (old school, legit glass fiber) interlink with custom clocking. I did a bit more research and discovered this combo was among the best CD players you could buy between 1995 and 1999. Consequently, I assumed what I heard could be attributed to the fact this is the only halfway decent CD player I've ever heard in my life and left it at that.

So my question to you, and to anyone else, is this: if what I heard isn't a fluke, then what in the actual f#(k is going on with CDs compared to modern digital media? Are CDs really that noticeably better with a higher-end CD player? If so, can anyone explain the technical reasons behind the obvious differences in performance? God help me if I ever get ahold of a decent vinyl setup lol.

Incidentally, I'm also discovering that high KHz files aren't always what they are cracked up to be. Seems to get the truest performance, you need to match the original sample rate the track was recorded in. Audio is quite the interesting rabbit hole, no?

Also, my Susvaras really sound great with this old DAC.

 

[littlej0e]

Sorry to break it to you, buddy, but when @801evan comes to your defense, you've lost the argument.

And as an FYI, your offhand opinions hardly qualify as "facts".


And this has what exactly to do with Roon... and its supposedly "sh!tty" sound quality?

No worries and thanks again for your insight. Have a great evening!

 

[IanB52]

Ah HA! Now this is a conversation!!!

I would love to hear your thoughts as to why the redbook CDs sound better. I have precious little experience with CDs as I am almost completely digital, but...quick story time with littlej0e:

I purchased an old CD player/DAC combo about a year ago (I only wanted the DAC, but I had to buy them as a package). For grins, I tossed a random CD in the tray, mostly to verify the CD player actually worked before I went to try and sell it. I was immediately struck by the staging and imaging. Everything also seemed to present much larger and overall quite differently compared to digital tracks I was used to. I assumed there was an unknown variable setting on the CD/DAC rig that was causing this, so I poured through the owners manual - nope. Everything was set perfectly and working as intended.

I proceeded to A/B the CD against my locally stored AIFF digital file and the results were unmistakable: the CDs had noticeably more depth and width of stage, slightly better sound isolation and overall dramatically different positioning. I then proceeded to raid my mother-in-law's entire pre-y2k CD collection, playing one after another and comparing them against their digital counterpart (yes, yes, I realize both are digital files. Don't be pedantic nerds...you know who you are!) with almost universally the same result. I needed an answer.

Turns out my old CD/DAC combo has a fancy custom fiber optic (old school, legit glass fiber) interlink with custom clocking. I did a bit more research and discovered this combo was among the best CD players you could buy between 1995 and 1999. I assumed what I head could be attributed to the fact this is the only halfway decent CD player I've ever heard in my life and left it at that.

So my question to you, and to anyone else, is this: if what I heard isn't a fluke, then what in the actual f#(k is going on with CDs compared to modern digital media? Are CDs really that noticeably better with a higher-end CD player? If so, can anyone explain the technical reasons behind the obvious differences in performance? God help me if I ever get ahold of a decent vinyl setup lol.

Incidentally, I'm also discovering that high KHz files aren't always what they are cracked up to be. Seems to get the very best and truest performance, you need to match the original speed the track was recorded in. Man, audio is quite the interesting rabbit hole.

I think high resolution files can definitely exceed CD quality, but I ran into the same ironic situation you did: Moving from disc-based playback to computers, servers, streamers, USB, ethernet etc that would allow me to play high res files and use higher performance DACs was actually a step back. And unfortunately, it has taken far too much time and money to approximate the lack of digital interference that I enjoyed on simple disc playback.

Here are some very unscientific things I learned along the way, which are surely nothing but hallucinations and confirmation bias:

1. Use optical isolation between your source and DAC. I2S is the best.
2. Play files off hard drive instead of streaming
3. Do as much as you can to isolate the component power supplies and grounds of any upstream digital device
4. Use digital sources with robust power supplies
5. Use AIFF, or better yet WAV, files instead of FLAC or ALAC. It seems like the less unpacking and metadata involved, the better.
6. Don't use DSP

For me these things have helped get back the enjoyment I had in the CD/SACD/DVD-A days, but with more flexibility and the better performance of modern DACs.

The above comments are just my imagination.

Sorry, way OT. Still really impressed with my Susvaras.

 

[801evan]

Ah HA! Now this is a conversation!!!

I would love to hear your thoughts as to why the redbook CDs sound better. I have precious little experience with CDs as I am almost completely digital, but...quick story time with littlej0e:

I purchased an old CD player/DAC combo about a year ago (I only wanted the DAC, but I had to buy them as a package). For grins, I tossed a random CD in the tray, mostly to verify the CD player actually worked before I went to try and sell it. I was immediately struck by the staging and imaging. Everything also seemed to present much larger and overall quite differently compared to the digital tracks I was used to. I assumed there was an unknown variable setting on the CD/DAC rig that was causing this, so I poured through the owners manual - nope. Everything was set perfectly and working as intended.

I A/B'd the CD against my locally stored AIFF digital file and the results were unmistakable: the CD had noticeably more depth and width of stage, slightly better sound isolation and overall dramatically different presentation. I then proceeded to raid my mother-in-law's entire pre-y2k CD collection, playing one after another, comparing them with their digital counterparts (yes, yes, I realize both are digital files. Don't be pedantic...you know who you are!) with almost universally the same result. I needed an answer.

Turns out my old CD/DAC combo has a fancy custom fiber optic (old school, legit glass fiber) interlink with custom clocking. I did a bit more research and discovered this combo was among the best CD players you could buy between 1995 and 1999. Consequently, I assumed what I heard could be attributed to the fact this is the only halfway decent CD player I've ever heard in my life and left it at that.

So my question to you, and to anyone else, is this: if what I heard isn't a fluke, then what in the actual f#(k is going on with CDs compared to modern digital media? Are CDs really that noticeably better with a higher-end CD player? If so, can anyone explain the technical reasons behind the obvious differences in performance? God help me if I ever get ahold of a decent vinyl setup lol.

Incidentally, I'm also discovering that high KHz files aren't always what they are cracked up to be. Seems to get the truest performance, you need to match the original sample rate the track was recorded in. Audio is quite the interesting rabbit hole, no?

Also, my Susvaras really sound great with this old DAC.

Simple.... CD doesn't have an operating system where many processes exist for non-audio needs. Redbook also has built in error correction. So all these accessories that help a CD transport in creating less errors yields better SQ. I have gone through 4 CD transports and they all sound different. My current one is a soundwarrior CDT (discontinued) + ocxo and powered by a 100x lt3045 voltage regulator custom psu and full loom silver occ. Even at it's early iteration of using an ifi elite, it made the jay audio CDT unlistenable. Yet the Jay audio CDT is still more coherent and easier to listen to than my best attempts on the NUC with HQplayer. And Roon was a bloated joke compared to HQplayer.

This is why I get more bass quantity and extension off the Susvara while team speaker amp + Roon users says Susvara isn't known for bass.

 

[Ciggavelli]

I think high resolution files can definitely exceed CD quality, but I ran into the same ironic situation you did: Moving from disc-based playback to computers, servers, streamers, USB, ethernet etc that would allow me to play high res files and use higher performance DACs was actually a step back. And unfortunately, it has taken far too much time and money to approximate the lack of digital interference that I enjoyed on simple disc playback.

Here are some very unscientific things I learned along the way, which are surely nothing but hallucinations and confirmation bias:

1. Use optical isolation between your source and DAC. I2S is the best.
2. Play files off hard drive instead of streaming
3. Do as much as you can to isolate the component power supplies and grounds of any upstream digital device
4. Use digital sources with robust power supplies
5. Use AIFF, or better yet WAV, files instead of FLAC or ALAC. It seems like the less unpacking and metadata involved, the better.
6. Don't use DSP

For me these things have helped get back the enjoyment I had in the CD/SACD/DVD-A days, but with more flexibility and the better performance of modern DACs.

The above comments are just my imagination.

Sorry, way OT. Still really impressed with my Susvaras.

I play everything off of locally stored flac on my streamer’s ssds. I think it sounds better than streaming the same albums off Qobuz or Tidal. Not a lot better, but a tad better. It’s why I have such a large library of local music. People claim you can fix streaming via Ethernet enhancements, but I’ve never tried a Pink Faun or other servers that are supposed to make streams sound better.

 

[IanB52]

I play everything off of locally stored flac on my streamer’s ssds. I think it sounds better than streaming the same albums off Qobuz or Tidal. Not a lot better, but a tad better. It’s why I have such a large library of local music. People claim you can fix streaming via Ethernet enhancements, but I’ve never tried a Pink Faun or other servers that are supposed to make streams sound better.

I've found the same. Really strange esp when the streaming flac and stored flac are the exact same qobuz file.

 

[chesebert]

Ah HA! Now this is a conversation!!!

I would love to hear your thoughts as to why the redbook CDs sound better. I have precious little experience with CDs as I am almost completely digital, but...quick story time with littlej0e:

I purchased an old CD player/DAC combo about a year ago (I only wanted the DAC, but I had to buy them as a package). For grins, I tossed a random CD in the tray, mostly to verify the CD player actually worked before I went to try and sell it. I was immediately struck by the staging and imaging. Everything also seemed to present much larger and overall quite differently compared to the digital tracks I was used to. I assumed there was an unknown variable setting on the CD/DAC rig that was causing this, so I poured through the owners manual - nope. Everything was set perfectly and working as intended.

I A/B'd the CD against my locally stored AIFF digital file and the results were unmistakable: the CD had noticeably more depth and width of stage, slightly better sound isolation and overall dramatically different presentation. I then proceeded to raid my mother-in-law's entire pre-y2k CD collection, playing one after another, comparing them with their digital counterparts (yes, yes, I realize both are digital files. Don't be pedantic...you know who you are!) with almost universally the same result. I needed an answer.

Turns out my old CD/DAC combo has a fancy custom fiber optic (old school, legit glass fiber) interlink with custom clocking. I did a bit more research and discovered this combo was among the best CD players you could buy between 1995 and 1999. Consequently, I assumed what I heard could be attributed to the fact this is the only halfway decent CD player I've ever heard in my life and left it at that.

So my question to you, and to anyone else, is this: if what I heard isn't a fluke, then what in the actual f#(k is going on with CDs compared to modern digital media? Are CDs really that noticeably better with a higher-end CD player? If so, can anyone explain the technical reasons behind the obvious differences in performance? God help me if I ever get ahold of a decent vinyl setup lol.

Incidentally, I'm also discovering that high KHz files aren't always what they are cracked up to be. Seems to get the truest performance, you need to match the original sample rate the track was recorded in. Audio is quite the interesting rabbit hole, no?

Also, my Susvaras really sound great with this old DAC.

You didn't actually sell your Wadia CD transport, did you?

 

[Ciggavelli]

I've found the same. Really strange esp when the streaming flac and stored flac are the exact same qobuz file.

Others on here have noticed it too. I’ve tried the bought Qobuz album and then the same Qobuz stream and the locally stored flac album sounds better definitely. There’s gotta be something going on with network stuff I guess