[340519]

Screw it. I Also bought the EL DAC from Jds labs . So ill have the O2 dac combo. Should be good.

 

[340519]

I stand corrected in my ignorance. So I contacted benchmark and adjusted the gain, and lo and behold, the sundaras at 11 o'clock are extremely loud. I apologize for my power rant.

 

[seanwee]

I stand corrected in my ignorance. So I contacted benchmark and adjusted the gain, and lo and behold, the sundaras at 11 o'clock are extremely loud. I apologize for my power rant.

What were you using initially?

 

[Cleo Hoeger]

You need a lot of real power to drive them well. And I'm also talking about how dynamic your source is. You're simply missing out on what most people describe as awesome about them if underpowering them.

Also, being plannar, they can get loud quick with good voltage, but if you're missing good current, they'll be lacking control and detail, voltage gives dynamics and loudness, while current gives meat, control, precision, detail and refinement. At least this is how I'd describe things after experiencing with over 25+ AMPs setups for Sundara.

Good for you. To me, there is no difference. I can listen to the Sundara with a DX3 pro on high gain without any hint of strain from the amp. Tried it with the Aune X7s and didn’t think there was any real difference.
But what I say doesn’t really matter to you. You can of course drop a few bills and say it sounds better. But the reasons you gave are too subjective (refinement, meat, control, detail) to justify that a more expensive higher power amp is needed.

 

[seanwee]

Good for you. To me, there is no difference. I can listen to the Sundara with a DX3 pro on high gain without any hint of strain from the amp. Tried it with the Aune X7s and didn’t think there was any real difference.
But what I say doesn’t really matter to you. You can of course drop a few bills and say it sounds better. But the reasons you gave are too subjective (refinement, meat, control, detail) to justify that a more expensive higher power amp is needed.

Well, the terms used are just the most accurate way we can describe what we're hearing without going too technical.

A perceived improvement in refinement and detail could be because the amp has better transient response and thus the headphone expresses better control as the signal is a more accurate representation of the source. Dampening of the drivers are also improved so the drivers distort less.

Of course, there are people who just use the term for the heck of it. @Dobrescu George is not one of them.

Again, a more expensive and higher power amp does not mean better sound/signal amplification quality. It just so happens that higher power amps typically need to use higher quality components which is why there will be an increase in amplification quality. I've heard low power amps that far surpass high power amps.

 

[Dobrescu George]

Good for you. To me, there is no difference. I can listen to the Sundara with a DX3 pro on high gain without any hint of strain from the amp. Tried it with the Aune X7s and didn’t think there was any real difference.
But what I say doesn’t really matter to you. You can of course drop a few bills and say it sounds better. But the reasons you gave are too subjective (refinement, meat, control, detail) to justify that a more expensive higher power amp is needed.

Well, you will eventually hear the difference between AMPs, or DX3 Pro and Aune X7S are really that similar that you really can't tell them apart.

Do a test for yourself, try Sundara with a smartphone

Not one smartphone will sound good with them, they'll lack volume, lack dynamics and just sound flabby. I mention it in my videos, and will in my review, they really need a good source.

I am not recommending Brooklyn DAC+ for Sundy, that would be silly of me, in fact, I will be recommending iFi iDSD Micro BL, QLS QA361 and FiiO Q5 (AMP5) for driving Sundy.

A setup must be balanced in terms of price of the components. I just am noting that I am also testing them with something else, to see how high they scale, but recommending anyone to get a 2K USD DAC for a 500 USD Headphone

Mojo is like an odd one out, it really balances their body, gives them better impact, gives them better detail and control, but restrains a bit the dynamics, Mojo itself has that more forward sound which is quite specific.

Well, the terms used are just the most accurate way we can describe what we're hearing without going too technical.

A perceived improvement in refinement and detail could be because the amp has better transient response and thus the headphone expresses better control as the signal is a more accurate representation of the source. Dampening of the drivers are also improved so the drivers distort less.

Of course, there are people who just use the term for the heck of it. @Dobrescu George is not one of them.

Thank you!

Also, I agree, it is complicated to put it in words sometimes, but right now I'm simply expressing what I'm hearing in a way that it is possible to transcribe it in simple English

I am actually testing the heck out of Sundara and how it pairs for my review, and a big part of that is because I love what it can do with good AMPs, and really, I simply haven't heard this kind of dynamics before from a ~500 USD Headphone. It easily can do the level some flagships in terms of dynamics alone. Although when compared to a proper flagship, they won't be more detailed, nor have better overall body, nor have better treble response, those dynamics are insane for their price, especially if driven well

 

[Cleo Hoeger]

Well, you will eventually hear the difference between AMPs, or DX3 Pro and Aune X7S are really that similar that you really can't tell them apart.

Do a test for yourself, try Sundara with a smartphone

Not one smartphone will sound good with them, they'll lack volume, lack dynamics and just sound flabby. I mention it in my videos, and will in my review, they really need a good source.

I am not recommending Brooklyn DAC+ for Sundy, that would be silly of me, in fact, I will be recommending iFi iDSD Micro BL, QLS QA361 and FiiO Q5 (AMP5) for driving Sundy.

A setup must be balanced in terms of price of the components. I just am noting that I am also testing them with something else, to see how high they scale, but recommending anyone to get a 2K USD DAC for a 500 USD Headphone

Mojo is like an odd one out, it really balances their body, gives them better impact, gives them better detail and control, but restrains a bit the dynamics, Mojo itself has that more forward sound which is quite specific.



Thank you!

Also, I agree, it is complicated to put it in words sometimes, but right now I'm simply expressing what I'm hearing in a way that it is possible to transcribe it in simple English

I am actually testing the heck out of Sundara and how it pairs for my review, and a big part of that is because I love what it can do with good AMPs, and really, I simply haven't heard this kind of dynamics before from a ~500 USD Headphone. It easily can do the level some flagships in terms of dynamics alone. Although when compared to a proper flagship, they won't be more detailed, nor have better overall body, nor have better treble response, those dynamics are insane for their price, especially if driven well

Of course I can tell the difference between a dedicated amp and a smartphone. Just because I have a “New Headfier” in my profile doesn’t mean I know nothing.
All this "could be this, could be thats", again, do not justify your point. If an amplifier measures well, like the atom does, then the "amplification quality" that you're talking about is definitely guaranteed. Any add ons you think you hear are in your head. If you think you can recommend, say the idsd bl, I really don't see why you think the atom is unsuitable for the sundara. It measures way better than the idsd bl and is certain not shy on power.

Well, the terms used are just the most accurate way we can describe what we're hearing without going too technical.

A perceived improvement in refinement and detail could be because the amp has better transient response and thus the headphone expresses better control as the signal is a more accurate representation of the source. Dampening of the drivers are also improved so the drivers distort less.

Of course, there are people who just use the term for the heck of it. @Dobrescu George is not one of them.

Again, a more expensive and higher power amp does not mean better sound/signal amplification quality. It just so happens that higher power amps typically need to use higher quality components which is why there will be an increase in amplification quality. I've heard low power amps that far surpass high power amps.

The first point you made, you don't have to worry about the atom.
I am not sure what you meant by your last add-on, basically you said:
higher power amp =/= better amplification quality, but
higher power amp "typically use good parts" = better amplification quality?

I take it as you mean high power amps use better parts. How do you know for sure that they have? People will still buy it and say it's better because of the brand reputation or the bias they have towards the product they just dropped a few bills on. When measurements show otherwise they will say music is not about objectivity and as long as it sounds good to me then it's good. I don't want to go there any further, because you know what will happen to people who go there on this forum.

In the end, both of you made your point, and you stand by it, and I respect that. I respect your decision as consumers to buy what you think is good for you. But not everyone has to shell out $$ to get quality devices that they need. If there is enough clean power, then it is adequate. Any more power you try to push into those phones is of no use. I would suggest the person who asked this question to try something out himself to see if he thinks the "difference" is of any significance to him before spending more cash for nothing.

 

[Promenadeplatz]

Well, you will eventually hear the difference between AMPs, or DX3 Pro and Aune X7S are really that similar that you really can't tell them apart.

Do a test for yourself, try Sundara with a smartphone

Not one smartphone will sound good with them, they'll lack volume, lack dynamics and just sound flabby. I mention it in my videos, and will in my review, they really need a good source.

I am not recommending Brooklyn DAC+ for Sundy, that would be silly of me, in fact, I will be recommending iFi iDSD Micro BL, QLS QA361 and FiiO Q5 (AMP5) for driving Sundy.

A setup must be balanced in terms of price of the components. I just am noting that I am also testing them with something else, to see how high they scale, but recommending anyone to get a 2K USD DAC for a 500 USD Headphone

Mojo is like an odd one out, it really balances their body, gives them better impact, gives them better detail and control, but restrains a bit the dynamics, Mojo itself has that more forward sound which is quite specific.



Thank you!

Also, I agree, it is complicated to put it in words sometimes, but right now I'm simply expressing what I'm hearing in a way that it is possible to transcribe it in simple English

I am actually testing the heck out of Sundara and how it pairs for my review, and a big part of that is because I love what it can do with good AMPs, and really, I simply haven't heard this kind of dynamics before from a ~500 USD Headphone. It easily can do the level some flagships in terms of dynamics alone. Although when compared to a proper flagship, they won't be more detailed, nor have better overall body, nor have better treble response, those dynamics are insane for their price, especially if driven well

Time to unsubscribe this thread. Bye.

 

[seanwee]

I am not sure what you meant by your last add-on, basically you said:
higher power amp =/= better amplification quality, but
higher power amp "typically use good parts" = better amplification quality?

I take it as you mean high power amps use better parts. How do you know for sure that they have? People will still buy it and say it's better because of the brand reputation or the bias they have towards the product they just dropped a few bills on. When measurements show otherwise they will say music is not about objectivity and as long as it sounds good to me then it's good. I don't want to go there any further, because you know what will happen to people who go there on this forum.

People will say whatever they want to justify their purchase, not many wouldn't. Especially if they dropped big bucks on their shiny new toy.

And no, I will not be able to say for sure that high power amps will be using higher quality components, but components below a certain quality will not be able to provide that amount of power.

Edit : Not sure if you're familiar with the pc building space but its similar to how higher wattage power supplies typically have a better 80+ rating compared to lower ones.

Personally, I don't care about brand reputation all that much if at all. A good brand can make bad products, it happens fairly often in the audio market.

Bias and fanboyism of certain brands or products are the bane of accurate reviews and impressions. Many a time I have been disappointed by reviews like that so now I demo products in person. Reviews I read these days just add stuff to my bucket list to try out.

Measurements, while sometimes useful, don't tell the full story of a product. At least for headphones. It's a more reliable for dacs and amps but it's still at most half the story. And most people won't be able to extract useful information from those measurements anyway. 2nd order and 3rd order harmonic distortion? Cumulative spectrum decay? Only a handful of folks know how to interpret these.

 

[seanwee]

But not everyone has to shell out $$ to get quality devices that they need. If there is enough clean power, then it is adequate. Any more power you try to push into those phones is of no use. I would suggest the person who asked this question to try something out himself to see if he thinks the "difference" is of any significance to him before spending more cash for nothing.

I agree 100%. Having more power is entirely pointless if you don't need it.

 

[Cleo Hoeger]

People will say whatever they want to justify their purchase, not many wouldn't. Especially if they dropped big bucks on their shiny new toy.
Bias and fanboyism of certain brands or products are the bane of accurate reviews and impressions. Many a time I have been disappointed by reviews like that so now I demo products in person. Reviews I read these days just add stuff to my bucket list to try out.

I agree, and I do that myself too nowadays. But not sure if I would be spending more on audio, the law of diminishing returns is becoming more and more prominent.

Measurements, while sometimes useful, don't tell the full story of a product. At least for headphones. It's a more reliable for dacs and amps but it's still at most half the story. And most people won't be able to extract useful information from those measurements anyway. 2nd order and 3rd order harmonic distortion? Cumulative spectrum decay? Only a handful of folks know how to interpret these.

While some people may not understand the info presented, many would benefit from it. Some components of measurement aren't that hard to read, and moreover those people that conduct measurements will explain what it means. Even if you doubt the explanation, you can always google and see what those graphs mean. Measurements is the only reliable way for the average consumer to determine if the product is crappy or not. It is far more reliable than listening to a reviewer who gives incredibly subjective terms and phrases like "meat, oomph(wth does that even mean), refinement, etc., just to name a few.

 

[340519]

What were you using initially?

10db gain and I changed the jumpers to 0db and now it's very loud at 11 o'clock . I had to pop the lid and change them manually. Very nerve racking.

 

[340519]

Well, the terms used are just the most accurate way we can describe what we're hearing without going too technical.

A perceived improvement in refinement and detail could be because the amp has better transient response and thus the headphone expresses better control as the signal is a more accurate representation of the source. Dampening of the drivers are also improved so the drivers distort less.

Of course, there are people who just use the term for the heck of it. @Dobrescu George is not one of them.

Again, a more expensive and higher power amp does not mean better sound/signal amplification quality. It just so happens that higher power amps typically need to use higher quality components which is why there will be an increase in amplification quality. I've heard low power amps that far surpass high power amps.

I just bought the jds labs combo, so I'll listen to their $200 amp next to my $2000 benchmark and see if there are any differences to my ears. Im gonna bet that there wont be.

 

[seanwee]

While some people may not understand the info presented, many would benefit from it. Some components of measurement aren't that hard to read, and moreover those people that conduct measurements will explain what it means. Even if you doubt the explanation, you can always google and see what those graphs mean. Measurements is the only reliable way for the average consumer to determine if the product is crappy or not. It is far more reliable than listening to a reviewer who gives incredibly subjective terms and phrases like "meat, oomph(wth does that even mean), refinement, etc., just to name a few.

Yes, but I doubt the average consumer even looks up a product before buying To say nothing of reading explanations on how to read the graphs.

And while I understand your distaste for subjective terms that can vary from person to person, unfortunately they are here to stay
How else would a regular consumer express what kind of sound they are looking for? Imagine an audio newbie looking for reviews of a product and all they are provided with are graphs. It wouldn't be pretty sight would it?

When I first dipped my toes into audio, I was annoyed by the amount of variance terms can have. One man's smooth sound could be another's muddy sound. Better to just stick to a handful of reviewers that align with your own definition of the term.

Tl: Dr? Subjective terms will always be thrown around because they are easy to understand (even if they are inaccurate). Just like how some audio review websites give scores to products which imo is much much worse compared to subjective terms used to describe audio.

And yes, more information like measurements are always good and very welcome.

 

[seanwee]

I just bought the jds labs combo, so I'll listen to their $200 amp next to my $2000 benchmark and see if there are any differences to my ears. Im gonna bet that there wont be.

There likely wouldn't be.

Did you ever hear the tragedy of NwAvGuy the wise?

The O2 was designed to go head to head with flagship amps of its era by its creator NwAvGuy. Especially the Benchmark 1