[Themilkman46290]

I think you should measure the company by their revenue and capital/debt not the price of their headphone or do they pay for advertisement spot on headfi.
Hifi-Man has been around for over 10 years and Pandemic probably bump their revenue a bit. So I have no doubt they will exist.

We have established that HE's QC has been subpar, but either you don't want to use warranty or don't want to repair it, it's your choice.
However, there's always repair option given that the manufacture still exists. If it does not exists, then all hope is lost.
That being said, my 4XX still works after 1.5 yr and you could always replace the pad with 3rd party pad.
Being that it's priced at $120 during sale I don't think it's much of a problem. You would always see more bad review on QC problem than not.
Since leaving feedback is a biased feedback loop. people generally do not post positive feedback and say well my headphone works after 2 years, since it's expected.

On drop there are thousands of unit sold and maybe couple of hundred bad feedback, that gives you the QC stats.
The hazard rate is higher than usual, but I doubt it's what people on here claiming to be.

I never understood why people rate brands based on revenue,
If a company pays more for marketing, then they have more revenue, this would mean they are better in your eyes?
So then by this measurement then beats by Dre are better then akg......... And skullcandy are better then dan clark audio.........

 

[Themilkman46290]

Hifiman was started by a person who was allready upper middle class and had capital to invest in a factory. This man is a doctor that studied in expensive schools and his family and family connections helped him become a well known name in hifi groups with a lucrative company.
If you study economics, you cane see how wrong you are to beleive that a small manufacture is not trustworthy.

Statistics show that lower classes are less likely to cheat, steal or lie
Statistics also show that the upper classes are rarely held responsible and tend to cheat, steal and lie much more often.

Don't take my word for it, Google it..
It's been proven over and over again.


Small manufacturers often make better products then multinationals
And these days companies are not even held to there marketing promises.
They don't care, there is nothing we can do to fight them. They won't fix anything and they are made to have issues after warranty.
Or if you live in a country like mine, there is no warranty for the majority of products after they have been "used"
I allready explained that this sash guy will sell the replacement membrane with the headphones. This is allready better then hifiman. And if he does "close shop and leave" as you seem to be convinced all small businesses do then I allready have what I want.
I would like to see hifiman or Sony offer that.. They don't, because they spend alot on paying brilliant scientists alot of money to engineer plastic that last half as long as regular plastic so that people like you will keep purchasing there stuff..
That is why you can't purchase replacement anything for them.
They are meant to fall apart.
You seem to beleive large corporations and multinationals are such beautiful and honest people with our best interest in mind.
I myself am in production, I used to make leather bags and custom shoes, I lost alot of money due to people bringing me nikes and Jordans, I would try to explain that they are horribly made, they don't even use real leather, they used reconstituted leather (cheap horrible, it's low quality leather impregnated with polyurethane and some other plastics) but people wouldn't listen, I even made a few pairs of shoes from very high quality leather, with natural Cork insoles, but nobody bought them.

A friend told me I should give up, the majority of people don't want quality, they want what they are told to want.



You prove my point, you would much rather have nikes then a pair of handmade shoes.........

I came on this thread to find a competitor to the Sundaras at similar price after my he4xx capped out
Maybe I was wrong and I shouldn't have come to the 4xx thread in search of a worthy upgrade after my 4xx died
But your comments reflect what is wrong with society.
People resemble sheep, no one researches anything, people are loyal to companies that do everything they can to milk them.
Extreme consumerism, marketing at every possible corner, no one supports the small.

I will purchase the small boutique pair of headphones, with spair membranes.
I will be happy knowing I don't support slavery (how do you think Chinese made products are made) and I am not supporting communism either (everytime you purchase Chinese anything, you support the communist) I will also be happy knowing that my product was made without planned obsolescence and that I am supporting a person and not some douchebag executive

I would make a bet on Hifiman being there for the next 3 years, but I won't make a bet that someone won't take your money close their FB page and run in the next 3 months. If your HE4XX disintegrated in 6 months, you are under warranty repair. So I called BS.

If you are talking about repair cost, Senheisser won't repair your headphone for cheap either, HE4XX is pretty cheap already for $130.
What if you want to drop $1000 on Hifiman's higher end product? Or Mid-end Sundara. Then repair would be cheaper.

Regardless, buying from a personal workshop is much riskier than buying a "boutique" if you want to categorize every headphone companies as boutique.

I think you should measure the company by their revenue and capital/debt not the price of their headphone or do they pay for advertisement spot on headfi.
Hifi-Man has been around for over 10 years and Pandemic probably bump their revenue a bit. So I have no doubt they will exist.

We have established that HE's QC has been subpar, but either you don't want to use warranty or don't want to repair it, it's your choice.
However, there's always repair option given that the manufacture still exists. If it does not exists, then all hope is lost.
That being said, my 4XX still works after 1.5 yr and you could always replace the pad with 3rd party pad.
Being that it's priced at $120 during sale I don't think it's much of a problem. You would always see more bad review on QC problem than not.
Since leaving feedback is a biased feedback loop. people generally do not post positive feedback and say well my headphone works after 2 years, since it's expected.

On drop there are thousands of unit sold and maybe couple of hundred bad feedback, that gives you the QC stats.
The hazard rate is higher than usual, but I doubt it's what people on here claiming to be.

 

[kyotousa]

I never understood why people rate brands based on revenue,
If a company pays more for marketing, then they have more revenue, this would mean they are better in your eyes?
So then by this measurement then beats by Dre are better then akg......... And skullcandy are better then dan clark audio.........

You measure the size of the company based on their capital and surplus/revenue. It's a simple financial measurement.
The more cap/surplus the higher chance that company will survive the downturn of the economic hardship of the company.
I'm merely stating the company have higher chance to survive longer to provide repair/warranty services.

It's a very basic economy concept. Since we can't even agree on the fundamental, I don't think there's a point to discuss even further.
I just have to agree to disagree on whatever concept you have coined yourself.

 

[Themilkman46290]

You measure the size of the company based on their capital and surplus/revenue. It's a simple financial measurement.
The more cap/surplus the higher chance that company will survive the downturn of the economic hardship of the company.
I'm merely stating the company have higher chance to survive longer to provide repair/warranty services.

It's a very basic economy concept. Since we can't even agree on the fundamental, I don't think there's a point to discuss even further.
I just have to agree to disagree on whatever concept you have coined yourself.

I understand what you mean, what I am saying is today's companies make more money by not offering any replacements, planned obsolescence, and short limited warranties that only apply in western countries.
I guess in a way your right, they may survive longer, but they won't offer replacement parts, better products for the price, or longevity of there products.
In fact they offer the opposite, because if there products were long lasting then they wouldn't sell as many units, they wouldn't make much money.
So if you want to figure out what companies make better products, you would have to figure out who makes the least profit........

If this custom headphone guy offers replacement parts I could simply purchase them and have something that will outlast anything made by a hifiman, even if hifiman last another 10 years, in order to get that kind of reliability from hifiman, I would need to purchase one of there higher end headphones with 5 year warranty, and by the time they do fail (if they failed) because of how companies like hifiman work, there will not be replacement parts.
I still don't see how a companies longevity is such an awesome thing, companies today don't offer longterm coverage unless your purchasing there high end. Manufacturers have lobbied against right to fix and consumer rights a long time ago and they are winning.
Corporations get alot more by making sure you keep purchasing.
Hifiman driver issues are well know, but they don't offer any replacements. If I purchase another pair of he4xx, there won't be warranty and it will most probably start having issues within a year or 2 of warranty.
So there is absolutely not benefit, even if hifiman lasted a 100 years. That doesn't make it a better purchase. Because its allready something that they are known for.
So purchasing from a small guy, with option of purchasing spare parts before it's needed turns out to be a safer purchase then from a name brand company that has a bad track record for quality control issues.

 

[kyotousa]

I understand what you mean, what I am saying is today's companies make more money by not offering any replacements, planned obsolescence, and short limited warranties that only apply in western countries.
I guess in a way your right, they may survive longer, but they won't offer replacement parts, better products for the price, or longevity of there products.
In fact they offer the opposite, because if there products were long lasting then they wouldn't sell as many units, they wouldn't make much money.
So if you want to figure out what companies make better products, you would have to figure out who makes the least profit........

If this custom headphone guy offers replacement parts I could simply purchase them and have something that will outlast anything made by a hifiman, even if hifiman last another 10 years, in order to get that kind of reliability from hifiman, I would need to purchase one of there higher end headphones with 5 year warranty, and by the time they do fail (if they failed) because of how companies like hifiman work, there will not be replacement parts.
I still don't see how a companies longevity is such an awesome thing, companies today don't offer longterm coverage unless your purchasing there high end. Manufacturers have lobbied against right to fix and consumer rights a long time ago and they are winning.
Corporations get alot more by making sure you keep purchasing.
Hifiman driver issues are well know, but they don't offer any replacements. If I purchase another pair of he4xx, there won't be warranty and it will most probably start having issues within a year or 2 of warranty.
So there is absolutely not benefit, even if hifiman lasted a 100 years. That doesn't make it a better purchase. Because its allready something that they are known for.
So purchasing from a small guy, with option of purchasing spare parts before it's needed turns out to be a safer purchase then from a name brand company that has a bad track record for quality control issues.

Profit = revenue - expense and your scenario you could break out the expense by
1. warranty expense
2. cost of factory, material + labor

So what you are actually saying here is that a successful company with bigger margin produce inferior product,
The profit comes from their inferior product nor do they offer warranty or repair service.
However, the kicker in your theory is that the customers will continue to buy their product to support this inferior company.

So there's the flaw of your argument, that you are able to identify better product by looking at whoever make lower profit. It makes absolutely no sense.
In order for company to keep growing - making larger profit is usually the company's goal.
Along the way, by beat competition with better product, better customer service, or lower cost, etc
The goal of these companies are grow their customer base, so they could continue to churn bigger profit.
I keep emphasizing on profit, because PROFIT is the key, nobody is doing charity work. Every seller is trying to increase PROFIT.

it's really the fundamental of business that's killing your argument. Since, larger the company is the one that has brand value (goodwill) to protect.
If they are in the business for a long time and have other competition they are usually trying to beat the competition to thrive and grow.
That's how we have technology breakthrough and cheaper products, which benefit the consumers.
Therefore, again, your argument make absolute no sense in business world and real life.
You are basically suggesting a cannibalize business model, which lot of Chinese companies are like that. However
these companies cannot survive for 10+ years. They will hit you once, and within 1-2years change the company name
Then, do it all over again because they don't have goodwill value. Same goes with individual boutique, they have nothing to lose.

Individual boutique also face a dilemma that they are short on surplus, so they could not take financial hit like these bigger companies.
Lot of crap can go wrong when product goes on production. Supply chain problem like right now. If they go busto, same goes with your product.
Or if for some odd reason, you receive a faulty product, then what? they might not be able to absorb the cost and get you a new one.
Anyway, this is obviously case by case situation. If you have some holy grail boutique you want to try out by all means go at it.
It is the holy grail anyway, hand made wood grain casing and everything for gazillion $$$$;
however I'd be very wary if this holy grail shop just popped up recently. So that's the risk of buying from boutique vs corporation.

 

[Themilkman46290]

Profit = revenue - expense and your scenario you could break out the expense by
1. warranty expense
2. cost of factory, material + labor

So what you are actually saying here is that a successful company with bigger margin produce inferior product,
The profit comes from their inferior product nor do they offer warranty or repair service.
However, the kicker in your theory is that the customers will continue to buy their product to support this inferior company.

So there's the flaw of your argument, that you are able to identify better product by looking at whoever make lower profit. It makes absolutely no sense.
In order for company to keep growing - making larger profit is usually the company's goal.
Along the way, by beat competition with better product, better customer service, or lower cost, etc
The goal of these companies are grow their customer base, so they could continue to churn bigger profit.
I keep emphasizing on profit, because PROFIT is the key, nobody is doing charity work. Every seller is trying to increase PROFIT.

it's really the fundamental of business that's killing your argument. Since, larger the company is the one that has brand value (goodwill) to protect.
If they are in the business for a long time and have other competition they are usually trying to beat the competition to thrive and grow.
That's how we have technology breakthrough and cheaper products, which benefit the consumers.
Therefore, again, your argument make absolute no sense in business world and real life.
You are basically suggesting a cannibalize business model, which lot of Chinese companies are like that. However
these companies cannot survive for 10+ years. They will hit you once, and within 1-2years change the company name
Then, do it all over again because they don't have goodwill value. Same goes with individual boutique, they have nothing to lose.

Individual boutique also face a dilemma that they are short on surplus, so they could not take financial hit like these bigger companies.
Lot of crap can go wrong when product goes on production. Supply chain problem like right now. If they go busto, same goes with your product.
Or if for some odd reason, you receive a faulty product, then what? they might not be able to absorb the cost and get you a new one.
Anyway, this is obviously case by case situation. If you have some holy grail boutique you want to try out by all means go at it.
It is the holy grail anyway, hand made wood grain casing and everything for gazillion $$$$;
however I'd be very wary if this holy grail shop just popped up recently. So that's the risk of buying from boutique vs corporation.

The diy guy sash has been making headphones for about no less then 4 years, and when I searched Russian forums, local forums I found he has been customizing planners for about 6 or more years.
But I don't want to seem like I am doing adverts for him, so I will keep the subject more towards the hifiman, and whaeter there headphones are really such an excellent value with great dependability based on the formula you keep suggesting, but

1. A basic formula you offered above works, but where in that formula is anything in regard of planned obsolescence? How does it show correlation between this formula and exclusion of the planned obsolescence or what is the exacted time line durability after the warranty term ends?
(I understand that according to that formula, a consumer can say that they are a safe bet, but I showed my wife, who actually studies this subject, and she explained, this formula tells nothing of quality or longevity of a product, in fact, she offered a simple formula to explain)

High quality+no marketing=little sales

Mediocre quality + some marketing=good sales

Bad quality + alot of marketing=little sales


Mediocre qualtiy + a lot of marketing =big sales (think apple products, beats, bose and C. A.)

2. You said the spair HM parts can be bought for the model # - where exactly can I purchase it? Link?
I had no idea that hifiman sold any spare parts, if you can show me where I can purchase a new membrane then I will have to eat my words.

3. If X (price of Sundara #) equals 350 ₴ and Y (price for Sash #) also equals 350₴ does it make Y "gazillion" times more expansive than X?

Maybe to make this discussion more productive, we shall get first on the same page regarding exact points and objectifi? Other wise it's just you saying they are doing well there for they must be good, and me saying that they are only doing well because they spend crap tons of money on marketing.

Thanks!

 

[Themilkman46290]

If anyone needs a replacement membrane, pm me, I can mail it just make me an offer
Only the membrane I have allready stripped off the magnets

 

[kyotousa]

The diy guy sash has been making headphones for about no less then 4 years, and when I searched Russian forums, local forums I found he has been customizing planners for about 6 or more years.
But I don't want to seem like I am doing adverts for him, so I will keep the subject more towards the hifiman, and whaeter there headphones are really such an excellent value with great dependability based on the formula you keep suggesting, but

1. A basic formula you offered above works, but where in that formula is anything in regard of planned obsolescence? How does it show correlation between this formula and exclusion of the planned obsolescence or what is the exacted time line durability after the warranty term ends?
(I understand that according to that formula, a consumer can say that they are a safe bet, but I showed my wife, who actually studies this subject, and she explained, this formula tells nothing of quality or longevity of a product, in fact, she offered a simple formula to explain)

High quality+no marketing=little sales

Mediocre quality + some marketing=good sales

Bad quality + alot of marketing=little sales


Mediocre qualtiy + a lot of marketing =big sales (think apple products, beats, bose and C. A.)

2. You said the spair HM parts can be bought for the model # - where exactly can I purchase it? Link?
I had no idea that hifiman sold any spare parts, if you can show me where I can purchase a new membrane then I will have to eat my words.

3. If X (price of Sundara #) equals 350 ₴ and Y (price for Sash #) also equals 350₴ does it make Y "gazillion" times more expansive than X?

Maybe to make this discussion more productive, we shall get first on the same page regarding exact points and objectifi? Other wise it's just you saying they are doing well there for they must be good, and me saying that they are only doing well because they spend crap tons of money on marketing.

Thanks!

Yes, the economics formula is a simple Revenue - Cost = Profit formula. Anyone who took economics 101 should know
You are the one who is saying less margin equates to greater the product. Not me. This is what you said:

So if you want to figure out what companies make better products, you would have to figure out who makes the least profit........

I simply point out that you are incorrect. It seems like your wife agrees as well.
I also point out the flaw of boutique seller, who could boom disappear or could not produce quality products when they scale.
Maybe you could ask your wife that, since you seem to trust her judgment.
Or maybe you should ask her to proof-read your previous posts to see if they make any sense, since those posts made 0 business sense to me.

Hifiman has customer service no? You could see if they could or could not repair it.
If it's a good deal for you? Not sure, For me I think HE4XX is a great choice.
Got it for $120 from Drop 2 yr warranty +1 yr credit card extension. What's not to like.
As I also explained, recommending boutique instead of Hifiman based on company's reputation also made no sense to me, and I have already explained the reasoning of it.

 

[bagwell359]

HFM doesn't treat it's customers that well. Orig owner and in warranty and Arya or above they take care of you.

Lower down there are more QC issues and seems like somewhat more careless handling.

Too bad that they put out some of the best cans and at least audibly is near the top with Senn and Stax. There are niche players that have 1 or 2 great products - Rall, HEDD, Dan Clark, etc but they don't keep dropping products such as the HE-6se, stealth, and now seemingly the XS at low prices that crunch their own offerings and that of the market overall - bad QA stories be damned.

 

[bagwell359]

As for the 4XX which I've owned for almost 4 years - (if you have the $ and power) the XS (reportidly), HE-6se v1 or v2, Sundara, and Ananda are all well better than the 4XX IMO. Also the 4XX doesn't scale (pads, cable, class a balanced amp). It's got no real low bass. It's way over plays mid/upper bass and sloppy damping. Imaging poor, treble grainy and bright. Not for jazz, classical. Good for bar blues, and a good amount of rock.

 

[kyotousa]

As for the 4XX which I've owned for almost 4 years - (if you have the $ and power) the XS (reportidly), HE-6se v1 or v2, Sundara, and Ananda are all well better than the 4XX IMO. Also the 4XX doesn't scale (pads, cable, class a balanced amp). It's got no real low bass. It's way over plays mid/upper bass and sloppy damping. Imaging poor, treble grainy and bright. Not for jazz, classical. Good for bar blues, and a good amount of rock.

I alternate between Focal Elegia and HE4XX, I think it's fine with quartets and jazz, terrible with anything vocal.
Then again, that's in comparison with Focal. They are pretty great with vocal.

 

[bagwell359]

I alternate between Focal Elegia and HE4XX, I think it's fine with quartets and jazz, terrible with anything vocal.
Then again, that's in comparison with Focal. They are pretty great with vocal.

There is always push back for these which I understand since I did the same initially. At that time I was listening to the HD-600 on a. DAP. By FR and tone a far better can than the 4XX. However, there was a swagger to the sound of the 4XX that really woke up moderately recorded rock.

It was my first planar followed by the Fostex FH500RP, LCD-2F, HE-500, HE-5LE, HEX v2, HE-5XX, Alara, HE-6se v1. Lots of time tearing them down, modifying, listening. My findings:

Junk: 5XX
Colored: 4XX
Mids only: FH500RP
No treble: Alara
No upper mids/treble: LCD-2F
Rings a lot: 5LE
Soft but lush: HEX v2
Great mids: 500 (w mods & EQ giant killer)
Meh soundstage - killer otherwise 6se v1

If you are very tight in budget and can locate a used one in good shape, then the 4XX can make good sense. They do nicely on DAP's. My aim is higher and so they sit unused.

 

[kyotousa]

There is always push back for these which I understand since I did the same initially. At that time I was listening to the HD-600 on a. DAP. By FR and tone a far better can than the 4XX. However, there was a swagger to the sound of the 4XX that really woke up moderately recorded rock.

It was my first planar followed by the Fostex FH500RP, LCD-2F, HE-500, HE-5LE, HEX v2, HE-5XX, Alara, HE-6se v1. Lots of time tearing them down, modifying, listening. My findings:

Junk: 5XX
Colored: 4XX
Mids only: FH500RP
No treble: Alara
No upper mids/treble: LCD-2F
Rings a lot: 5LE
Soft but lush: HEX v2
Great mids: 500 (w mods & EQ giant killer)
Meh soundstage - killer otherwise 6se v1

If you are very tight in budget and can locate a used one in good shape, then the 4XX can make good sense. They do nicely on DAP's. My aim is higher and so they sit unused.

Right, I'm not into chasing the diminishing of return. I'd rather wait for a reasonably priced electrostatic set and spend my money else where.
20 years ago people were fine with HD650, currently I just use it as reference.
Running them with DX7 pro, I like both of my headset over HD650. Also I got the 4XX for $120 brand new, so pretty tough to beat.

 

[bagwell359]

Yes it has a place, and its a reasonable one. I'm on my way to a Susvara or something similar.

 

[bagwell359]

Yes it has a place, and its a reasonable one. I'm on my way to a Susvara or something similar.

But on the way there I have found these:

HFM HE-6se v2 - $555 new Adorama best can under $1200 IMO
HFM HE-6se v1 - was $599 new, not sure of used prices. Soundstage step down from v2.
HFM HE--500 - used about $375-425. Another 4XX assassin.
HFM XS - $440 Aliexpress. Getting raptuous reviews here and elsewhere. Far East only.

Drawback on 1st 3 is power needed - 2 wpc. These prices are firmly mid-fi, performance well over that. From here it's a lot of money for a few percent. From 4XX to here it's double digits.