[sennfan83261]

Since Fang once mentioned wanting to nuke Sennheiser he could tackle the Orpheus one day.

Hifiman HE-90 would be quite a fitting name. No need to waste precious R&D resources.

As I said before, Fang already did this long ago with the HE Audio Jade.

 

[Articnoise]

The question is (to me at least) will this HE-R10 sound as the famous Sony MDR-R10 or just look like them?

 

[WadaHiFi]

The question is (to me at least) will this HE-R10 sound as the famous Sony MDR-R10 or just look like them?

unlikely. Bian made a comment himself on the original drivers are bad,so I assume he will not make a headphone just to remake the sounds from a headphone that Bian consider bad

 

[sennfan83261]

-

I focus more on the substance rather than the form. It is the act of cheating/copycat itself. Not whether he gets caught/sued. Something like....if the law says it is legal for me to kill other people, would I still kill other people?

Plus we also look at the historical behavior. If this is not Hifiman we're talking, I would probably give more credit. But his is known for greed and shady practices.

Nice try to counter lawful behavior regarding practicing public domain knowledge, in response to somebody else's initial opinion that Hifiman is "exploiting the law," with some crazy make-believe hypothetical about a law permitting murder that has no basis in reality. Congrats on your mental gymnastics with your non sequitur. Besides, businesses practice expired patents more often than you'd like to think. You know why? Because subject matter claimed in patents becomes public domain knowledge upon the expiration of those patents. This is one of the tenants of patents: a quid pro quo between governments and inventors (or assignee(s)), where the former permits the latter a time-limited monopoly (make/use/sell) of what the patent claims in exchange for disclosing the contents of the patent to the public. Once time is up, the expired patent's disclosure becomes public domain knowledge for anyone or any entity to practice.

Hell, a ton of business hire attorneys or have their in-house counsels draft "produce clearance" memos, otherwise known as freedom to operate (FTO) or right to operate memos, to get around active patents. Again, a very common practice in the business world.

 

[kp297]

Nice try to counter lawful behavior regarding practicing public domain knowledge, in response to your initial opinion that Hifiman is "exploiting the law," with some crazy make-believe hypothetical about a law permitting murder, which has no basis in reality. Congrats on your mental gymnastics with your non sequitur. Besides, businesses practice expired patents more often than you'd like to think. You know why? Because subject matter claimed in patents becomes public domain knowledge upon the expiration of patents. This is one of the tenants of patents where there is a quid pro quo between governments and inventors (or assignee(s)), where the former permits the latter a time-limited monopoly (make/use/sell) of what the patent claims in exchange for disclosing the contents of the patent to the public. Once time is up, the expired patent's disclosure becomes public domain knowledge for anyone or any entity to practice.

Hell, a ton of business hire attorneys or have their in-house counsels draft "produce clearance" memos, otherwise known as freedom to operate (FTO) or right to operate memos, to get around active patents. Again, a very common practice in the business world.

hmmmmm I don't think people are arguing whether what Feng has done is legal or not. Feng has done his homework and I agree, this is legal.

I got into this hobby because after a long day, I need a way to disappear for a few hours. Sometimes, I like to look at different gears and dive into what makes them work. This hobby is as much art as it is science. I love the innovation and meeting people from different walks of life. People have unique stories, companies have innovative tech to bring their vision to light. Remember the Susvara? That was incredible pushing of technical boundaries so Feng could transport himself to Carnegie hall. That is TRUE passion, a person who takes pride in his craft. The hard cover bound book that ships with the Susvara shows full images of opera houses. This gives me peek into Feng's heart, and his true values for music.
Heck, remember the DMP Z1 from Sony? That was insane! And awesome! Another showcase of passionate professionals pushing their skills and vision to a new level.

Feng has released a flagship level headphone, HE-R10, without the honor, respect or innovation that this hobby deserves.

 

[sennfan83261]

hmmmmm I don't think people are arguing whether what Feng has done is legal or not. Feng has done his homework and I agree, this is legal.

My initial response was to the statement that Hifiman is "exploiting the law," as if there was a legal loophole, which I replied with Hifiman actions as being permitted with respect to public domain knowledge and, later to omniweltall's reply, how their actions are in the spirit of what patent law set out to achieve. Also, in my initial reply which you and omniweltall neglected to quote:

Of course, that does not shield Hifiman's HE-R10 from criticisms of being a knock-off, copycat, being unoriginal, etc. Imagine the criticism when the sound quality of the HE-R10 is found out to be a step down from Sony's MDR-10. A lot of popcorn will be had then.

 

[bocky]

Chinese Hifi companies have suffered (sometimes well deserved) copycat stereotype.
Hifiman has come a long way and made some real high-end and original products.
I don't understand what Hifiman is trying to do here copying an iconic headphone's look and its name. I feel sad as a fellow Chinese.

 

[kp297]

My initial response was to the statement that Hifiman is "exploiting the law," as if there was a legal loophole, which I replied with Hifiman actions as being permitted with respect to public domain knowledge and, later to omniweltall's reply, how their actions are in the spirit of what patent law set out to achieve. Also, in my initial reply which you and omniweltall neglected to quote:

Hi! Yes, my apologies for not including the second quote. My intention was not to cherry pick.

 

[trellus]

I see. So the problem with HifiMan is that they are Chinese. OK. At least we know what YOU are about.

I think you missed an earlier post in which @WadaHiFi mentioned that they are, in fact, Chinese themselves -- so that might help a little.

 

[Trance_Gott]

I will be waiting for HE-R10 v2 no stop for HE-R10SE.
The HE1000 was my last Hifiman. Because of the revisions in so small time and the bad finish I stayed away from there headphones.

 

[trellus]

this thread is entertaining, for sure...

I have mixed feelings about this... I don't honestly feel a sense of moral outrage at all -- but I'm not here to say anyone else shouldn't, it's just not where I'm at -- but I really am a little confused by the move, it strikes me as ... kind of weird, honestly, I think some of the other posts by others who point out that straight-up knockoffs from no-name companies are par for the course, but this is confusing coming from HiFiMAN, who really do have plenty of their own original designs -- and at this price -- and then with what seem to me to be rather petty comments about Sony by Fang in the presentation about these new cans... just, honestly, tacky/weird.

On the other hand, I am genuinely curious about how they sound -- there are so few serious closed back planars and I don't know many that really have any serious following as they all seem to have flaws.

And this announcement is even stranger, though, given that there are two models (with the EXACT same name?) at two very different price points -- just really strange.

I never cared for the look of the Sony MDR-R10, and I admit I've never heard them, but nothing I've heard about frankly makes me all that curious to, which is good since without meets I'm almost certain I never will -- and certainly they are priced out of my reach by an order of magnitude.

But then... these HiFiMAN's are also really priced out of my territory, too, so.... it'll be fun to see reviews of these, though!

EDIT: so no "moral outrage" here from me so much as... well, I do think it makes the brand look bad -- and there are already brand detractors, not entirely for unfair reasons, either, in my view -- I happen to like the HiFiMAN's I do have (HE-560, HE-5Se, DEVA), but this doesn't help their branding, in my view?

 

[Fegefeuer]

Just so you know:

I don't have any problem with the Hifiman staff in general, not at all. The support got hugely better and the team is both very friendly and very helpful. Don't want any of these guys to read this and take any blame.

Ting, April, Tracy and all the others. Your work is outstanding.

 

[Edric Li]

For Mandarin speakers, here's the full live stream of Fang Bian's presentation:
https://taobaolive.taobao.com/room/index.htm?feedId=274521788743

43:30 - Bian says Sony R10 is not as good as people claims it to be. He prefers Bose NC700, Sony XB900N and Sony WH-1000XM3 over Sony R10. (Edit: see Bian's clarification: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hif...k-headphone-from-hifiman.939483/post-15792113)
49:30 - Bian addresses the haters, "I know people out there will accuse us of copying Sony. This product is not paying homage to Sony ('s design). Sony and I are competitors. Homage or not, all we (Hifiman and Sony) should care about is making good product. Even though Sony owns more market share, you (Sony) won't be able to sue me. I researched Sony's patents; they are expired. (Audience applaud in laughter)"

@Nankai started a thread on erji.net to address the haters:
http://www.erji.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2197103

"If (you, viewers of erji.net) don't like (my move), bring a hundred million (CNY) and buy Hifiman. I'll listen to you then."
"What's fascinating about headfi is that people with Chinese last name in their ID be out there talking negatively (about my move) for 10s of pages, and the actual foreigners are tired of them."
"American-born Chinese needs to understand their identity, and think about how to breakthrough the barrier of western culture imposes on minorities (the American Chinese), instead of channeling their misery (from being (mis)treated by the western culture) towards how a Chinese headphones company should conduct its business."

I hope my translation is as accurate and neutral as it can be, though his language is a bit more sarcastic/playful.

 

[kman1211]

this thread is entertaining, for sure...

I have mixed feelings about this... I don't honestly feel a sense of moral outrage at all -- but I'm not here to say anyone else shouldn't, it's just not where I'm at -- but I really am a little confused by the move, it strikes me as ... kind of weird, honestly, I think some of the other posts by others who point out that straight-up knockoffs from no-name companies are par for the course, but this is confusing coming from HiFiMAN, who really do have plenty of their own original designs -- and at this price -- and then with what seem to me to be rather petty comments about Sony by Fang in the presentation about these new cans... just, honestly, tacky/weird.

On the other hand, I am genuinely curious about how they sound -- there are so few serious closed back planars and I don't know many that really have any serious following as they all seem to have flaws.

And this announcement is even stranger, though, given that there are two models (with the EXACT same name?) at two very different price points -- just really strange.

I never cared for the look of the Sony MDR-R10, and I admit I've never heard them, but nothing I've heard about frankly makes me all that curious to, which is good since without meets I'm almost certain I never will -- and certainly they are priced out of my reach by an order of magnitude.

But then... these HiFiMAN's are also really priced out of my territory, too, so.... it'll be fun to see reviews of these, though!

EDIT: so no "moral outrage" here from me so much as... well, I do think it makes the brand look bad -- and there are already brand detractors, not entirely for unfair reasons, either, in my view -- I happen to like the HiFiMAN's I do have (HE-560, HE-5Se, DEVA), but this doesn't help their branding, in my view?

I do as well, I really find this whole thing strange as well. Not sure why they just ended up copying the baffle and earcup design of the R10 like that and the comments are just weird. I've personally heard both the bass-light and bass-heavy R10 at length and to me they are headphones that take extended listening to fully appreciate and I also understand why not everyone will rate them as highly. But my friends bass-heavy R10 is still to this day the best headphone I've ever heard imho. Bass presence has always been a bit of a weakness on them and I find it fine but you could do with more. It's always been the timbre, tone, vocals, midrange, treble, and overall fidelity that stood out to me on them. They have a naturalness and effortlessness I haven't really heard in other headphones and is one of the only headphones I've heard that causes me absolutely zero listening fatigue after extended listening. I personally think their drivers are better than the vast majority of headphones. I never bought into the newer means better mentality in terms of headphones. Tuning has been the biggest change over the years.

 

[sennfan83261]

this thread is entertaining, for sure...

Well said. By piggybacking on a legendary can (in name and its distinctive look), I'm afraid that Hifiman has set an extremely high bar for themselves and may have set themselves up for failure. Will their HE-R10's reach this bar? Time will tell. If the HE-R10's fall short of that bar, I'm sure that the flurry of reactions here will melt Head-Fi's servers, lol.