[Bill-P]

Well, even for audiophiles, I don't think it makes much sense.
 
Most audiophiles who are that serious about music quality would have already built their own music collection... so they already have most of the albums.
 
$20/month is steep because that's roughly $240 a year... which can be put toward purchasing a new piece of gear... or that super rare album that you've always wanted, and that Tidal doesn't have.
 
That and I'm already getting iTunes Radio for free on my phone. I just have to suffer through 10-20 seconds worth of some advertisement every 3-4 songs, which isn't too bad. The quality difference is also not that big, but I get a much bigger selection, and also get to discover artists I haven't heard before.

 

[TheChillburger]

 
 
The HE-560 is actually harder to drive than both the HE-500 and LCD-2.
 
 

What about the HE-560 makes it harder to drive than the HE-500, out of curiosity? All of the stats sheets I'm looking it make the HE-500 to being harder to drive, but maybe there's a factor I'm not considering.

 

[Bill-P]

  What about the HE-560 makes it harder to drive than the HE-500, out of curiosity? All of the stats sheets I'm looking it make the HE-500 to being harder to drive, but maybe there's a factor I'm not considering.

It's been noted by reviewers as well, that the HE-560 is harder to drive than the HE-500, and it approaches the HE-6 in terms of power hunger.
 
I think part of the reason is because the quoted sensitivity was taken with the microphone much closer to the diaphragm than the final production unit. So after all of the extra dampening, the HE-560 may turn out to have less sensitivity after all. That would greatly affect how much power is needed to drive it.
 
In fact, since the method for this measurement was never standardized, it's all over the place for different manufacturers. But also people may have different sensitivity to different frequencies, so that's why sensitivity should only be taken as a ballpark figure, and not as an absolutely correct value. More power/overhead in order to push more SPL is then a nice convenience to have (and may be necessary after all).
 
And judging by how much power the HE-6 and HE-560 can take, I'd guess Hifiman sort of knew that they'd need to design a headphone that can play really really loud to cater to different people.

 

[TheChillburger]

 
It's been noted by reviewers as well, that the HE-560 is harder to drive than the HE-500, and it approaches the HE-6 in terms of power hunger.
 
I think part of the reason is because the quoted sensitivity was taken with the microphone much closer to the diaphragm than the final production unit. So after all of the extra dampening, the HE-560 may turn out to have less sensitivity after all. That would greatly affect how much power is needed to drive it.
 
In fact, since the method for this measurement was never standardized, it's all over the place for different manufacturers. But also people may have different sensitivity to different frequencies, so that's why sensitivity should only be taken as a ballpark figure, and not as an absolutely correct value. More power/overhead in order to push more SPL is then a nice convenience to have (and may be necessary after all).
 
And judging by how much power the HE-6 and HE-560 can take, I'd guess Hifiman sort of knew that they'd need to design a headphone that can play really really loud to cater to different people.

I see what you mean. I personally haven't really encountered difficulty in driving the HE-560 with my O2/ODAC vs a vendor's V200 combo that I tried.
 
I can understand not liking the sonic characteristics of an amp, but saying the O2 doesn't properly drive the HE-560 just seems odd to me. I got more than enough volume for safe listening levels, and the sound didn't seem compromised. 

 

[mandrake50]

First,
Thanks for the reply. Good stuff, but it leaves me still with questions, or at least some comments

I think MAX means maximum theoretical possible output.

I know Schiit occasionally monitors these forums, so if someone from Schiit can jump in and correct me on this, I would be grateful.

It is not true that amps don't run into a brick wall. In fact, all amplifiers run into a brick wall.

This, of course is true, but they, in my experience, get to unlistenable levels of distortion well before the brick wall is reached.

[/quote] This is not designed in. It's just the physical or technical limitations of the parts used.[/quote]

In some cases the design uses protection that will keep the amp from destroying itself.

[/quote]Regular op-amp-based amps without buffers have a current limit that's due to the op-amps used. Most op-amps on the market that can do audio well typically run up to a current limit of 40mA or so. But most of them would only be comfortable up to about 20mA or so (or roughly 50% quoted maximum specs) before they start distorting. This is due mostly to thermal constraints and power supply quality.

Buffered op-amp based amps would have a current limit that's dependent on the buffer used. This may range anywhere from 100mA to 250mA maximum specs, but the comfortable range may still be 50% that, so... think 50mA to 125mA. It's the same problem as above because these chips are small, so they have very little surface area for heat to flow to. Side note: the O2 has 2 buffers per channel, each rated at 100mA so its author quotes 200mA max output, but the datasheets say each of the buffers is only comfortable up to a bit under 40mA, so max comfortable output is more like 80mA. And that's only when the power supply lines are properly bypassed, which its author neglected to note in the schematic. And that is why the O2 is not recommended for the current-hungry HE-560. Its performance when current is not a limiting factor is quite good, but when current is a factor, it can be all over the map.

Discrete amps are harder to measure, as the max output is a combined effect of the circuit topology and the parts used. Typically, they don't run into the same thermal constraints because there is more space between hot parts, and there is overall more surface area for heat to flow to.

Schiit headphone amps are all discrete, so they fall into the last category.

Now, in the past, I think power was reported with a frequency range at a certain distortion level because most loads are current-limited (speakers just need a lot of current) at somewhat standardized impedances (2, 4, or 8 Ohms), or in other words, it's all straight-forward. But Schiit can't do the same here because their headphone amps will have to deal with a wide range of headphones... from low impedance to high impedance (high impedance means lower current, but voltage becomes a limiting factor), each with its own distortion characteristics. So they can't (or more like... "shouldn't") quote something that would only apply to a very specific situation. Instead, it makes more sense for them to quote either MAX or RMS power values.[/quote]

I see many headphone amps with published specs at very specific transducer impedance levels. 916 ohms, 32 ohms, 50 ohms, etc.) These, of course, apply to those specific impedances only. Yet whether output is listed as RMS (MAX I suppose) or "nothing listed" (maybe we can assume peak, but who knows if it is not stated) MAX. I don't see what would prevent them from including a frequency range and distortion figure at the specified impedances. I am not sure why the end user should have to guess, or write and ask what the specs mean! The same sort of vagueness is illustrated when we are not told if the output numbers are derived with both channels driven or only one. This is important in knowing the adequacy of the power supply for real world use.

[/quote] As for the Geek Pulse, I have no idea to be honest.[/quote]

That was just one example. I have yet to get anyone at LH labs or the devotees of the products to clarify this for me.

[/quote]That aside, you've also brought up a good point: the limitations will also appear when the power supply gives up.

But it actually happens more often than you may think. Here's an article on... power supply noise:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/regulators_noise1_e.html

And not even battery is perfect. A well-designed, well-regulated, super-overkill power supply in any case is still quite an achievement.
Apologies for the geekiness!  [/quote]

Exactly what I was looking for, but I am not sure that what you wrote justifies the lack of clarity in the specs for most headphone amps.

I went through the era where some amps used things like PMP (Peak Music Power) with no level of distortion nor frequency range listed. This gave MAX numbers for something that might be 10 watts in reality being listed as 200 watts.

 

[Bill-P]

  I see what you mean. I personally haven't really encountered difficulty in driving the HE-560 with my O2/ODAC vs a vendor's V200 combo that I tried.
 
I can understand not liking the sonic characteristics of an amp, but saying the O2 doesn't properly drive the HE-560 just seems odd to me. I got more than enough volume for safe listening levels, and the sound didn't seem compromised. 

 
Well, because the O2 would distort at relatively low current level (low volume on the HE-560), and even though the distortion may be low enough that it doesn't audibly change the overall tone, it'll still cause miniature changes that may mask details or change subtle things that you would otherwise notice with the HE-560 if you had had a much cleaner amp.
 
People tend to think of distortion as changing the tone of the headphone, but that's not true. Distortion also masks micro details. That's why planar magnetic and electrostatic headphones can present details so well, since they inherently have less distortion than most dynamic headphones.
 

First,
Thanks for the reply. Good stuff, but it leaves me still with questions, or at least some comments

This, of course is true, but they, in my experience, get to unlistenable levels of distortion well before the brick wall is reached.

 
Oh sure, and I'll try to answer them to the best of my abilities.
 
Well, as I mentioned after this point, some devices (op amps, transistors) have distortion and noise well before their max specifications are reached (at 50% max specs). And these devices are used in the power supply as well, so it's a combination of different factors that cause the distortion to rise well before the brick wall is reached. This is why an amp with headroom is recommended. But what's better is an amp that has a well-designed distortion mechanism that doesn't show before the brick wall. Or a brick wall is actually designed in before another brick wall.
 

In some cases the design uses protection that will keep the amp from destroying itself.

 
Yeah, that's true.
 
But what I'm trying to say is that... even with the protection in place, the parts used in the circuit actually have limitations themselves, and these limitations may actually show well before the point at which the protection mechanism kicks in.
 

I see many headphone amps with published specs at very specific transducer impedance levels. 916 ohms, 32 ohms, 50 ohms, etc.) These, of course, apply to those specific impedances only. Yet whether output is listed as RMS (MAX I suppose) or "nothing listed" (maybe we can assume peak, but who knows if it is not stated) MAX. I don't see what would prevent them from including a frequency range and distortion figure at the specified impedances. I am not sure why the end user should have to guess, or write and ask what the specs mean! The same sort of vagueness is illustrated when we are not told if the output numbers are derived with both channels driven or only one. This is important in knowing the adequacy of the power supply for real world use.

 
Because most headphones (non-planar) actually have varied impedance and varied distortion figures depending on frequencies as well. It's absolutely impossible to list such a thing and have it applied universally across all headphones, or even to a very specific headphone. In fact, it would make almost no sense at all.
 
Or in other words: a headphone that is rated at 100 Ohm impedance may have an impedance of 250 Ohm at bass frequencies. It's not linear. Planar magnetic headphones like the HE-560 are close to being linear, but in practice, they still have some variation... even if not due to the headphone itself, it's due to the cable.
 
Manufacturers would need to list a whole table of values in that case, but then how many people would actually look at these tables, right?
 
So the specs of the amp would be there only as a ballpark figure, and then the user will have to do the rest of the calculations for his or her specific headphone. But as I explained above, even the method of measuring the headphone is not standardized, so one would have to dig pretty deep down the rabbit hole in order to understand anything meaningful out of this. And that's why measurements for headphones typically are there as an estimate rather than an actual depiction of how the headphone actually sounds like.
 
Fastest way to know is still to plug the headphone into the amp and listen, I'd say.
 

Exactly what I was looking for, but I am not sure that what you wrote justifies the lack of clarity in the specs for most headphone amps.

I went through the era where some amps used things like PMP (Peak Music Power) with no level of distortion nor frequency range listed. This gave MAX numbers for something that might be 10 watts in reality being listed as 200 watts.

 
Well, like I said, they'd need to publish a whole table for it to be truly "clear", which is pretty excessive, and not a lot of people would take that as being anything meaningful, since... if one is a consumer, one would only care about short and concise lists, and if one is a technician or engineer who understands a thing or two, then it'd be faster to measure the headphone and amp directly rather than referencing such an insane table.
 
As for something with only 10W of power but it's listed (in an ad) as 200W, I'd agree... that some crazy marketing is involved.
 
But honestly, the problem is... in an age where everyone else is quoting 4-6-10W of "power", I don't think a company would want to quote 1W of power. A tech-head or engineer would see that and pay it no mind, but a consumer would go: "not enough power" and skip the product. In a sense, it's not like Schiit or other amp makers are selling these amps exclusively to tech-heads and engineers.

 

[nicdub]

I'm curious as to people's opinions regarding the Geek Pulse and Hifiman HE-560 combo. Seems almost too good to be true. Any one use indiegogo before? Anyone heard the 560 with the Pulse? Will the 560 be 100% new, not refurbished? Would love to pull the trigger on it but deals like this always seem to have some underlying thing that undercuts the value.

 

[MaximPrime]

I really need some help and i only have a few hours to decide with the current HE-560 + Geek pulse deal only open for a little bit more of the 24 hours.
 
I currently have owned my HE-400 for nearly 2 years. I love it but with every day use they are getting a bit worn.
 
I cannot decide if i should get the HE-560 + Geek Pulse package or the He-400i + Geek pulse package.
 
My main concern is that the HE-400i will be to similar to my current HE-400 but the new design and lightness is appealing.
 
How much different is the HE-560 to the HE-400? Is the difference between bright sound and neutral sound a big difference?
 
Has anyone listened to the HE-560 on the Geek Pulse was it able to drive the sufficiently?
 
Thanks in advanced for any info guys. Im leaning towards the HE-560 money if not really the issue. Always temped to go a higher end headphone and this offer is nearly to good to pass up. 
 
I only have owned IE-8, IE-80 and He-400 in the past.

 

[chartwell85]

I'm curious as to people's opinions regarding the Geek Pulse and Hifiman HE-560 combo. Seems almost too good to be true. Any one use indiegogo before? Anyone heard the 560 with the Pulse? Will the 560 be 100% new, not refurbished? Would love to pull the trigger on it but deals like this always seem to have some underlying thing that undercuts the value.

Yes, the HE-560's are brand new.  
 
Indiegogo is an incredibly popular site for crowdfunding.  We're actually already shipping Geek Pulse so there is no risk involved what-so-ever.  
 
We simply fell in love with the Geek Pulse + HE-560 & HE-400i combo at RMAF and thought it would be awesome to offer a one time deal like this to people that truly cared about sound quality and experience.  

 

[chartwell85]

  I really need some help and i only have a few hours to decide with the current HE-560 + Geek pulse deal only open for a little bit more of the 24 hours.
 
I currently have owned my HE-400 for nearly 2 years. I love it but with every day use they are getting a bit worn.
 
I cannot decide if i should get the HE-560 + Geek Pulse package or the He-400i + Geek pulse package.
 
My main concern is that the HE-400i will be to similar to my current HE-400 but the new design and lightness is appealing.
 
How much different is the HE-560 to the HE-400? Is the difference between bright sound and neutral sound a big difference?
 
Has anyone listened to the HE-560 on the Geek Pulse was it able to drive the sufficiently?
 
Thanks in advanced for any info guys. Im leaning towards the HE-560 money if not really the issue. Always temped to go a higher end headphone and this offer is nearly to good to pass up. 
 
I only have owned IE-8, IE-80 and He-400 in the past.

Larry (LH Founder & President) LOVES his HE-560's while I personally like the HE-400i's.  
 
Both pairs are super lightweight and incredibly comfortable.  The Geek Pulse was able to drive each one, no problem at all.  

 

[tuna47]

I Don't agree the sound kills spotify premium and it lets you try many deferent albums and genres
When you like something you don't have to purchase a cd because you have it in cd quality from tidal hundreds of albums for the price of one

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Well, even for audiophiles, I don't think it makes much sense.

Most audiophiles who are that serious about music quality would have already built their own music collection... so they already have most of the albums.

$20/month is steep because that's roughly $240 a year... which can be put toward purchasing a new piece of gear... or that super rare album that you've always wanted, and that Tidal doesn't have.

That and I'm already getting iTunes Radio for free on my phone. I just have to suffer through 10-20 seconds worth of some advertisement every 3-4 songs, which isn't too bad. The quality difference is also not that big, but I get a much bigger selection, and also get to discover artists I haven't heard before.

Bill-P, usually I agree with you, but in the case of TIDAL and the cost of $20.00 a month is off base. First, I bet the average audiophile is spending $20.00 on new music. I have a huge music collection, but have already found a copious amount of music I love, but don't have digitally, or tried new music prior to purchasing. I was paying $10.99 a month for Spotify Premium, TIDAL is well worth double that price, the sound quality is vastly superior.

If you have built a quality system, why use inferior software?

 

[Bill-P]

I Don't agree the sound kills spotify premium and it lets you try many deferent albums and genres
When you like something you don't have to purchase a cd because you have it in cd quality from tidal hundreds of albums for the price of one

 
It's $20 a month... for the hundreds of albums that you won't ever own personally, so when the service is out, you're out some amount of money, and you won't be able to access the music anymore.
 

Bill-P, usually I agree with you, but in the case of TIDAL and the cost of $20.00 a month is off base. First, I bet the average audiophile is spending $20.00 on new music. I have a huge music collection, but have already found a copious amount of music I love, but don't have digitally, or tried new music prior to purchasing. I was paying $10.99 a month for Spotify Premium, TIDAL is well worth double that price, the sound quality is vastly superior.

If you have built a quality system, why use inferior software?

 
I do spend on average $20 or more a month on music, yeah... so I'd agree.
 
But that $20 is usually on music that is either in digital form or in physical form that I would later convert to digital anyway. The main point is I will still retain a copy of the recording for my own use way later on even where I don't have access to the streaming service.
 
I frequently travel by plane to other countries where certain streaming services aren't available (TIDAL being one), and the network sucks... so most of the time, an offline copy of the music would be good.
 
As for discovery of new music, I've been using iTunes Radio. It's free, I get access to practically the entire iTunes library that are condensed into the same "genre" that I use to create a radio, and the quality is pretty good. At least on par with Spotify from what I can hear.
 
I guess... since I already have a pretty big library for offline use, and a free online radio, it's harder for me to justify spending $20 a month on something I don't necessarily own. It's like an investment in online servers that I won't have access to when I go traveling. But then... maybe it's just me.

 

[mandrake50]

I'm curious as to people's opinions regarding the Geek Pulse and Hifiman HE-560 combo. Seems almost too good to be true. Any one use indiegogo before? Anyone heard the 560 with the Pulse? Will the 560 be 100% new, not refurbished? Would love to pull the trigger on it but deals like this always seem to have some underlying thing that undercuts the value.

The biggest problem that I see is that the Pulse is still somewhat of an unproven commodity. The raw numbers look great. If the Pulse is anywhere close to the promises... and if it retails...and actually sells for the list price (someday)... and you have the disposable funds It is a no brainer. Unfortunately, the only proven part of the deal is the HE 560. If you don't buy into the rest of the equation, you can get them cheaper  AND faster without taking the DEAL ??
 
I did it, but for some irrational reason I am buying into the hype... and maybe greatly inflated list price. After all, no Pulse has yet sold for $1K, and not many have heard the finished product. I think I was moved by having wanted a set of the HE 560s for quite a while. For the additional maybe $200 over an open box, or potential Black Friday special... I figured it was worth the risk!

 

[Rajikaru]

  I see what you mean. I personally haven't really encountered difficulty in driving the HE-560 with my O2/ODAC vs a vendor's V200 combo that I tried.
 
I can understand not liking the sonic characteristics of an amp, but saying the O2 doesn't properly drive the HE-560 just seems odd to me. I got more than enough volume for safe listening levels, and the sound didn't seem compromised. 

 
 

   
Well, because the O2 would distort at relatively low current level (low volume on the HE-560), and even though the distortion may be low enough that it doesn't audibly change the overall tone, it'll still cause miniature changes that may mask details or change subtle things that you would otherwise notice with the HE-560 if you had had a much cleaner amp.
 
People tend to think of distortion as changing the tone of the headphone, but that's not true. Distortion also masks micro details. That's why planar magnetic and electrostatic headphones can present details so well, since they inherently have less distortion than most dynamic headphones.
 

 
From level matched listening tests using the HE-560 driven by the O2+ODAC and higher wattage Hifiman EF5, I'm not getting any distortion from the O2.  If anything, the  EF5, being a tube hybrid, subtly smears the detail more due to the tube input stage.  This is on tracks that I know well and what details to listen for. 

I was impressed with the detail level on the EF5 already, but the O2 is just cleaner. The gain on the O2 should be matched with the input voltage, of course, and the EF5 has more headroom on the volume knob. 

Since you mention it, I also switch between to a STAX electrostat from time to time, and as far as this 'inaudible distortions that smears the micro details' are concerned, it really seems you like to cherry pick your arguments, providing technically plausible but one-sided explanations that have no basis in actual usage and experience. 

I'd personally put much more weight on extended listening experiences of people who actually have the equipment on hand, over your soap box musings.