[pp312]

 
You say: "I expect that mods would not be necessary to achieve maximum (or even satisfactory) performance".
How can it be that these mods are "necessary" when there are 1000's of satisfied users and there have been dozens of glowing professional reviews for these headphones - in stock form - comparing them to some of the finest HF's around?
 
We can agree to disagree on the HE-500's sound but I think your inference that mods are "necessary" for satisfactory performance is a distortion of the truth.

 
Not meaning to suggest that mods are necessary for everyone, merely for those who find the performance unsatisfactory out of the box, as many in the jergpad mod thread did and do.  Obvious when a huge modding thread grows up around a product (and with the HE500 it's more than just pads) it means that many are not satisfied with the stock product (for some, of course, it simply means they find the product so good they want to extract every last ounce of performance out of it, but not all). I actually bought two HE500s because I couldn't believe there wasn't something wrong with the first one, but they sounded identical. I compared them at length with the DT880 Pro and while I could hear that the HE500 was clearly superior in bass extension and overall resolution and smoothness, the DT880 sounded so much more open and easier to listen to--that cave-like effect was gone and the sun was pouring in again. My feeling is that there's a resonance in the stock product that bothers some and not others, and which is probably remedied by one or other of the mods (grill mod maybe?). It's probably also genre specific, showing up most clearly on large orchestral works (which is where most faults show up, which is why I would not judge any phone on anything other than heavy orchestral music no matter what music I actually listened to). Anyway, after two samples I reckon I've given them a fair go, though if someone wanted to send me a modded version just out of the goodness of their heart I wouldn't knock it back. Just saying.

      

 

[Liu Junyuan]

Not meaning to suggest that mods are necessary for everyone, merely for those who find the performance unsatisfactory out of the box, as many in the jergpad mod thread did and do.  Obvious when a huge modding thread grows up around a product (and with the HE500 it's more than just pads) it means that many are not satisfied with the stock product (for some, of course, it simply means they find the product so good they want to extract every last ounce of performance out of it, but not all). I actually bought two HE500s because I couldn't believe there wasn't something wrong with the first one, but they sounded identical. I compared them at length with the DT880 Pro and while I could hear that the HE500 was clearly superior in bass extension and overall resolution and smoothness, the DT880 sounded so much more open and easier to listen to--that cave-like effect was gone and the sun was pouring in again. My feeling is that there's a resonance in the stock product that bothers some and not others, and which is probably remedied by one or other of the mods (grill mod maybe?). It's probably also genre specific, showing up most clearly on large orchestral works (which is where most faults show up, which is why I would not judge any phone on anything other than heavy orchestral music no matter what music I actually listened to). Anyway, after two samples I reckon I've given them a fair go, though if someone wanted to send me a modded version just out of the goodness of their heart I wouldn't knock it back. Just saying.       

Nice post.

What I am noticing from your assessment of the HE-500 is that qualities like resolution, smoothness, bass extension and impact are lower on your priority list than they are for other users who love these headphones, for whom these features are very significant indeed and that are not dismissed so lightly.

High in your list is soundstage and openness, which would make sense for classical. I crave air and openness too. The chamber effect appears frequently in your evaluation. What people found, specifically Jerg, is that those latter qualities can be addressed by simply removing the outer grills (HifiMAN did this for the HE 1000 notice).

Concerning your last comment on resonance, you are correct that a mod also seeks to address this (the felt mod). That is a problem with the dual magnet technology, which resulted in back wave reflection. Audeze this introduced fazors. Jerg found that applying felt to the inner magnet behind the earpad mitigates this reflection. If you look at Fang Bian's presentation on the HE-1000, he claims a new technology addresses the issue.

HE-500s probably are not for you and are not for everyone, as goes for the DT 880. At stock form the qualities others love about planars are there in spades with the HE-500 but are less important to you. The only way to address that would be the grill and felt mods but even then you might not be satisfied. You certainly did try to like them and they didn't deliver.

 

[razorpakk]

Sometimes we expect too much from our headphones, we expect tight bass, clear and forward voices and amazing soundstage even when in the record itself those things are missing.
Any headphone or speaker can only reproduce what's in the record, we can't expect to keep finding new sounds in our old music with every new purchase (this is more of a broad statement and not for the op).

 

[Liu Junyuan]

Sometimes we expect too much from our headphones, we expect tight bass, clear and forward voices and amazing soundstage even when in the record itself those things are missing.
Any headphone or speaker can only reproduce what's in the record, we can't expect to keep finding new sounds in our old music with every new purchase (this is more of a broad statement and not for the op).

Very true, but that does not mean any one headphone regardless can meet all requirements. I think the way I have approached this from a limited budget is to have a small stable of headphones with different signatures on hand. I definitely find myself rotating between them and would feel claustrophobic with only one pair. For me having a nice planar and dynamic on hand is really convenient. I cannot think of a better value than the HE 500 for my own tastes to address the planar magnetic requirement.

 

[pp312]

What I am noticing from your assessment of the HE-500 is that qualities like resolution, smoothness, bass extension and impact are lower on your priority list than they are for other users who love these headphones, for whom these features are very significant indeed and that are not dismissed so lightly.

High in your list is soundstage and openness, which would make sense for classical. I crave air and openness too. The chamber effect appears frequently in your evaluation. What people found, specifically Jerg, is that those latter qualities can be addressed by simply removing the outer grills (HifiMAN did this for the HE 1000 notice).

Concerning your last comment on resonance, you are correct that a mod also seeks to address this (the felt mod). That is a problem with the dual magnet technology, which resulted in back wave reflection. Audeze this introduced fazors. Jerg found that applying felt to the inner magnet behind the earpad mitigates this reflection. If you look at Fang Bian's presentation on the HE-1000, he claims a new technology addresses the issue.

HE-500s probably are not for you and are not for everyone, as goes for the DT 880. At stock form the qualities others love about planars are there in spades with the HE-500 but are less important to you. The only way to address that would be the grill and felt mods but even then you might not be satisfied. You certainly did try to like them and they didn't deliver.

 
Thanks for that specific info on the mods. I did read the thread a few months ago but as it no longer pertained to me I didn't retain much. My reluctance to fiddle with expensive headphones remains. My motto, posted on the wall above my bed, is "SHOULDN'T BE NECESSARY."
 
You're correct that bass extension and impact and overall resolution are less important factors with classical (though not unimportant) than with popular styles. Most important are soundstage, tonal rightness, if I can put it that way, and lack of listener fatigue. A symphony can last well over an hour; screeching strings and piercing piccolos just aren't on the menu. Most classical listeners seek to reproduce the concert hall experience, and if one phone doesn't quite render the transients of the cymbals or xylophone with the bell-like clarity of another it's not going to matter quite as much as if the second phone has a muddy, closed-in soundstage, which is how I heard the HE500. Whatever technical failings the DT880 may have, it's wonderfully open, and for its price capable of an astonishing realism with a decent recording. I've had many 'OMG! Was this headphone only $230?' moments with the DT880, and that's after having tried just about every mid-price phone, and many high end ones, on the market. I really can't praise the DT880 enough in terms of value for money.
 
I may investigate other planar offerings in time. I did enjoy the LCD-2 when I had it, but I felt like an African woman balancing an especially heavy and odd-shaped pot on my head. Ditto with the HE500, except that that felt even less stable as the earpads tended to fall off if twisted the wrong way. Oh well... 
 
O perfect headphone, wherefore art thou?

 

[Tobes]

 
Incidentally, I listen to classical. It's possible the HE500 is more suited to popular styles, in which case my findings may not be relevant.
.

 
As an experiment I pulled out Mahler's Symphony No. 9 (Telarc - Benjamin Zander/Philharmonia Orchestra).
 
I first put both the HE-500 and my Q701's on the Grace dac/amp (twin TRS outputs so easy to swap and both HF's have similar voltage sensitivity).
With this program through the Grace I much preferred the Q701 - more open, out of the head and explicit imaging; nicely balanced sound.
The he-500's on the Grace produced a darker sound, and much more 'in the head' imaging - a little crowded and I thought the bass was a bit amorphous/lacking definition.
I prefer the Q701 in this situation.
 
Moving both headphones onto the TRS outputs of the Violectric 281 (still with the Grace dac) the he-500 became more open - both depth and width - no longer sounding 'in the head'. Also gained definition and detail.
The Q701 maybe gained a bit of depth and detail, but not nearly the improvement of the he-500.
The advantage of the q701's spaciousness is pretty much negated and it lacks the rich lush sound of the he-500 in comparison (though still pretty good).
The q701 still sounds more precise in its imaging, but lacks the naturalness and ease of the he-500.
 
With the he-500 on the balanced output of the Violectric it gains even more spaciousness and also more precise in its imaging. Textural detail of instruments is also more abundant.
Flicking back to the q701 (and adjusting for lower output of the TRS output) the Q701 now sounds a bit lean and insubstantial - lacking the timbral color of the he-500.
 
I'm not saying there is necessarily any parallel to your situation but the sound of the he-500 is definitely influenced by driving hardware.
 
For the record, the Grace puts out around 2W at 32 ohms and 1.5W at 50ohms - so on paper should have plenty of grunt for the he-500.
In balanced mode the Violectric has 2.8W at 32ohms and 4.2W at 50ohms. (I measured my he-500's at 46.9ohms). 
In any case I don't think its just watts at play here. 

 

[arny73]

...  
I'm not saying there is necessarily any parallel to your situation but the sound of the he-500 is definitely influenced by driving hardware.
 
...

 
my experience,
i bought the HE 500 first time one year ago, driving it in unbalanced mode, sound was dark and without heart, no impression in no way. (Trafomatic Head One and Naim CD5X)
a few month ago, in a trade i took again he500 with all balanced cable because now i have a 300b Amp with speaker-to-headphone adapter, now sound is very different, great control, airiness between instruments, very particular way to reproduce fast transient.
a right rigs could be the difference

 

[pp312]

  I'm not saying there is necessarily any parallel to your situation but the sound of the he-500 is definitely influenced by driving hardware.

 
I'd say there's a lot of parallel, and what you've said ties in with my gut feeling about the HE500 at the time, that it was capable of much better performance with better equipment. Unfortunately I had neither the money nor inclination to purchase said equipment, especially when the headphone was so heavy and generally awkward and the DT880 was so comfortable and performed so well with what I had at minimal cost. This is the thing. There are a lot of recommendations for phones like the HE500 but people often forget to point out that without the right equipment it may well sound like crap. I think the HE500 is especially fussy in this regard. I never had that problem with the LCD-2, which tended to sound good out of anything. So when you think about it, the bargain price of the HE500 (relatively) may not be such bargain after all, not after you've had to mortgage the hovel to pay for the right matching equipment. So my second motto after IT SHOULDN'T BE NECESSARY is IF IT DON'T SOUND GOOD WITH WHAT I"VE GOT, IT DON"T SOUND GOOD.
 
Incidentally, I notice you joined in 2002 but only have 20 posts. You should let your voice be heard more often.    

 

[Tobes]

 
Incidentally, I notice you joined in 2002 but only have 20 posts.

 
For the record I've never been that enthusiastic about headphone listening.
In the past I've generally found it irritating and fatiguing over longer periods.
 
Back around 2002 I bought a pair of Philips HP's that were being recommended at the time - but never really used them much - sounded lacklustre on my desktop pc.
I then got the (recommended) Audio Technica AD-900, but found the balance irritating and lightweight - gave them to my son.
I actually much preferred the balance of the el-cheapo (but quite good) Koss ksc75.
 
More recently I bought the Q701's and these became my HF's for desktop use - but more for short sessions than longer intense listening.
It was only after getting the he-500's and using them with the Grace 903 that I could finally listen and enjoy HF listening for long periods.
That pairing was probably not ideal (as outlined above) but I preferred the balance to the Q701's over a wide selection of music (typically not including classical - which I preferred to listen to via my Harbeth speakers).
I didn't really believe that an expensive amp was required for the he-500's - the Grace did very adequate job I thought - but I rolled the dice with the v281.
 
Given that HP listening is still not my preference, I'm not sure that I'm that comfortable with owning an expensive amp like the v281.
But it does sound very good with the he-500's (and Q701's) and provides a viable alternative to speaker listening when the latter is inappropriate.
 
I'm sure there are less costly setups that would have been satisfactory, maybe superior, but as my daughter tells me - YOLO.

 

[Tobes]

   So when you think about it, the bargain price of the HE500 (relatively) may not be such bargain after all, not after you've had to mortgage the hovel to pay for the right matching equipment. So my second motto after IT SHOULDN'T BE NECESSARY is IF IT DON'T SOUND GOOD WITH WHAT I"VE GOT, IT DON"T SOUND GOOD.

 
You're probably right there.
 
If I may quote again from the Tom Martin review I referenced above (my underlining BTW):
 
" Consider this headphone if: you want a headphone that delivers pretty much the full wish list: ultra wide-range frequency response, accurate tonal balance, great bass, excellent resolution of low-level sonic details, and low distortion. Oh, and give the HE-500 an extra-careful look if you’re willing to use a headphone that needs a very good amplifier to show its stuff."

The devil is in the detail.

 

 

[gauchotodd]

What people found, specifically Jerg, is that those latter qualities can be addressed by simply removing the outer grills (HifiMAN did this for the HE 1000 notice).

Just to share my experience on this, I degrilled mine and although I do hear a notable improvement in the soundstage and upper treble, it's still not as open as I'd like. I'm hoping the focus pads will help with this though since they're not so deep.

 

[gauchotodd]

   
my experience,
i bought the HE 500 first time one year ago, driving it in unbalanced mode, sound was dark and without heart, no impression in no way. (Trafomatic Head One and Naim CD5X)
a few month ago, in a trade i took again he500 with all balanced cable because now i have a 300b Amp with speaker-to-headphone adapter, now sound is very different, great control, airiness between instruments, very particular way to reproduce fast transient.
a right rigs could be the difference

I'd assume the amp is much more, if not completely responsible for the sound difference than is the cable.

 

[arny73]

  I'd assume the amp is much more, if not completely responsible for the sound difference than is the cable.

sorry, i forgot to say that the cable is the same but change the connection
i agree with you, amp is very important for the sonic results and also the connection for this headphone

 

[arny73]

   
I'd say there's a lot of parallel, and what you've said ties in with my gut feeling about the HE500 at the time, that it was capable of much better performance with better equipment. Unfortunately I had neither the money nor inclination to purchase said equipment, especially when the headphone was so heavy and generally awkward and the DT880 was so comfortable and performed so well with what I had at minimal cost. This is the thing. There are a lot of recommendations for phones like the HE500 but people often forget to point out that without the right equipment it may well sound like crap. I think the HE500 is especially fussy in this regard. I never had that problem with the LCD-2, which tended to sound good out of anything. So when you think about it, the bargain price of the HE500 (relatively) may not be such bargain after all, not after you've had to mortgage the hovel to pay for the right matching equipment. So my second motto after IT SHOULDN'T BE NECESSARY is IF IT DON'T SOUND GOOD WITH WHAT I"VE GOT, IT DON"T SOUND GOOD.
 
Incidentally, I notice you joined in 2002 but only have 20 posts. You should let your voice be heard more often.    

Sorry, I can deduce that you prefer LCD-2, so I'd like you to note that price and weight are in favor of HE500.
i think when you'll drive the LCD-2 with a best amp than yours, you'll notice many improvements.

 

[pp312]

I think when you'll drive the LCD-2 with a best amp than yours, you'll notice many improvements.

 
Unfortunately that won't be happening for 3 reasons.
 
1. I'm happy with the DT880.
 
2. I'm through with $1000+ headphones, and it was too uncomfortable anyway.
 
3. You've forgotten my second motto: IF IT DON'T SOUND GOOD WITH WHAT I'VE GOT, IT DON'T SOUND GOOD.
 
Lovely place, Rome. I'm hoping to get back there this year.