[dleblanc343]

Facepalm >.<... Actually I'm far from a detail freak, and when I say better, it's simple; it sounds much more accurate, effortless, faster, more coherent and there is no funky/ bothersome treble peaks in the upper registry.
 
Superior/ better in audio exists, there should not be any arguing over this. The drivers are much more capable, the way the headphones were tuned (dampening, housing construction and materials) are vastly superior. I started my adventure into headphones with grado, and well, I give them credit for what they've done to me; but I'd only consider the PS1000's or HP series very seriously.
 
And the ps500's are mad colored as it is, whether you pass them through amplification or not, it doesn't sound natural for all genres. It's a dynamic and fun headphone, with more bottom end compared to most grados. Not saying they're bad, I actually might consider buying a pair for some classic rock and whatnot (especially at the price I can get them); but they're not close to the HE500's on a technical standpoint, nor are they as accurate.
 
It all comes down to tastes in the end. Someone who likes rock will probably love the PS500's (or most Grado for that matter), but the HE500 is just a class above.
Quote:

 I argue that what the detail freaks like about scalability and super hifi sound is always at a sacrifice in some quality that is hard to pin down, but it's real nonetheless. I've never heard super hifi sound that sounds right and makes me smile. After a point, hifi pursuits is a kind of mental illness.
 

 

 

 
 

 

[thelostMIDrange]

so I understand your point, and using your logic and feeling, I ask, is the hifiman a class above for rock n roll then? and if not, how come that is not a shortcoming as worthy of condemnation as 'color' or lack of detail seems to be for you? 
 
we agree, and i've already stated, one's record collection is of utmost importance in any of these discussions

 

[thelostMIDrange]

this could be a fruitful discussion. let's have some back and forth dleblanc et al. 
 
are there no limits to clarity?  Have you not noticed how new digital tv's look like the people on the screen have swallowed plutonium and are radioactive? Is that kind of detail and resolution natural? do your friends look like that when you sit across from them under an oak tree?

 

[fenderf4i]

So many people prefer vinyl. Isn't its warmth a colored sound? Isn't more detail attainable with modern digital audio, yet people still like listening to vinyl more?

 

[TMRaven]

Vinyl counterparts of an album are usually mastered with higher dynamic range.

 

[dleblanc343]

haha, I understand your point with televisions, but I'm no pro in that field. I guess people just want the most vivid picture possible.
 
As for headphones (or audio in general), it's really different flavors for different people. 
 
...Going to change subject here, but I've got questions.
 
Usage also has a big part in this hobby. For example, portable setup vs home setup. I never understood how one could compare IEM's to full sized cans... To say that the JH16 is better than an HD800 is misleading to me; this kind of comparison is much more complicated than the case of the hifiman vs grado in this thread. 
 
I remember having a customer come to our store ( a tourist from China), he wanted to try out the HD800's and was a very serious buyer. After trying them he said he didn't like it much and pulled out some JH13's, and said they're much better than the HD800. He couldn't imagine ever going to headphones. I wish I could have tried them, but his customs would obviously not fit my ears. Never had the chance to try customs, and don't intend on getting any time soon (seems like the technology is progressing so fast, may as well wait a bit longer), but some people swear by them.
 
The way I see it is a custom iem will be much more analytic (having multiple drivers per housing) and intimate because of the smaller soundstage, but imaging and instrument separation/imaging and depth might be great thanks to the multiple drivers. But can it match the capabilities of a high end headphone like the HD800's? Both are technically advanced in their own ways, but which one would sound more "real". I don't see how an earbud with lacking soundstage could match a high end headphone, imo the airyness and width of sound, or the "surround effect" is really important to me for music. No matter how much detail and layering you have in an in earphone, even if you get more information out of them; it always feels like it's inside you head; unlike the better headphones.
 
What I'm basically trying to say, and getting way off topic over it... is: what are your views, fellow head-fiers, on custom iems vs high end headphones? The only earbuds I own are the IE8, RE272 and GR07, and they only get usage for getting to school on daily commute. I don't plan on getting customs because I'm afraid I'd be disappointed, and it would not be easy to sell. I'm probably going to buy the IE800's when they're out as I can get good prices on them and can at least resell them.
 
And a bit back to topic, I'd like to say that to me, openess and expansive sound is what makes a pleasing headphone for me; it makes the music sound real and present around you. The ps500's soundstage is right next to my ears, a bit better than grados in the SR series; but it's not real. It's aggressive, definitely fun and engaging, but it only works with some material. The HE500, while not having an enormously wide sound stage, still have more three dimensionality to them and make music sound "real". And the current iem's I own are not even comparable, so I'm still curious about customs and their ability to convey music and not only detail retrieval.
 
TL;DR: If you want to follow the thread's topic, DON'T read my post lol! 

 
 

 

[thelostMIDrange]

as a player of instruments, I guess I am more used to being 'right there' and prefer that to being in the 5th row etc. and to me that is more 'reality' than a more expansive distant presentation. Although I can appreciate both...........But this is just another example of one thing not being 'better' than another. It's personal preference/comfort/familiarity.  In that sense, maybe iem's and grados are closer to each other than iem's and hifiman/senn. Grado is unique in the driver being right on the ear. That's what's great about the 'new' grado sound. You get the up front sound without the super aggressive aspect. grado presentation with sennheiser/tube/analog type buffer. It's a nice combo.

 

[Gwarmi]

 
Quote:

 
 
It all comes down to tastes in the end. Someone who likes rock will probably love the PS500's (or most Grado for that matter), but the HE500 is just a class above.
 
 

 
 
 Hey DLE just a few quick impressions on obviously how you love the HE500 - I'm yet to hear a HiFiMan myself - that's one brand that has eluded me all this time.
 
 In another post you mentioned that the PS1000 is the best reference headphone you've heard, now I have not heard the PS500 and many say
 that it offers 80% or so of the PS1000 experience - what were the differences or nuances between the HE500 and PS1000 that would make you put the
 Grado flagship on top?

 

[WhiteCrow]

Got the HE-500, Will be selling my RS-2 soon if this helps.

 

[headphonatic]

 
Quote:

I'd recommend the 500's to the OP. Why not choose the headphone that was designed to sound good without thousands of dollars of ancialliary gear. As far as I'm concerned any headphone over 60 ohms is poorly designed. I understand why, as the makers are searching for that extra 'fidelity', soundstage, etc and low ohm drivers can struggle with that, but lucky for them, what a great scapegoat scenario it also is - i.e., to build a headphone and then say, well if it's not to your liking, you just have the wrong amp or one that's not expensive enough, then the headphone will sound good. What a rabbit hole that is. It's like designing a _____A_____ and then say, well, it's not complete yet, the buyer has to find _______B_____to perfectly mate up with it and then it will be a final product. This forum is largely the attempt to get people chasing their tails to find B at the expense of alot of time and money. And as long as people support companies that build unfinished products, they will continue to make them. Grado at least got that right in their decision to focus on 32 ohm cans and maximize the potential of such a thing. I'm not a fan of sr or rs series grado but the 500 and hf2 are excellent for 20th century 'traditional' music. One of the few natural options left. Yes despite the e/q curve, the actual sound produced for guitar, bass, drum, piano, horns, vocal etc is quite natural, and enjoyable to listen to with a nice balance of 'color', detail, punch, accuracy, comfort, price, smoothness/edge. The grado is not an analytical phone or for electronic music I agree. It is a one trick poney- for reproducing music made by humans. And because that's the only pony I ride, it's all good. The magnum driver variant is another attempt at the new grado sound - i.e. grado presentation with some senn smoothness and lushness. I feel it's a bit more colored sound even than grado however but in trade it has more clarity and a clearer background than the 500/hf2. The hifiman I had was not too appealing to me, but then again, I'm sure it was because I didn't have the proper amp/dac/source/cable etc

 
This guy, deserves a reward

 

[detoxguy]

The HE-500's are 38 ohm
Quote:

I'd recommend the 500's to the OP. Why not choose the headphone that was designed to sound good without thousands of dollars of ancialliary gear. As far as I'm concerned any headphone over 60 ohms is poorly designed. I understand why, as the makers are searching for that extra 'fidelity', soundstage, etc and low ohm drivers can struggle with that, but lucky for them, what a great scapegoat scenario it also is - i.e., to build a headphone and then say, well if it's not to your liking, you just have the wrong amp or one that's not expensive enough, then the headphone will sound good. What a rabbit hole that is. It's like designing a _____A_____ and then say, well, it's not complete yet, the buyer has to find _______B_____to perfectly mate up with it and then it will be a final product. This forum is largely the attempt to get people chasing their tails to find B at the expense of alot of time and money. And as long as people support companies that build unfinished products, they will continue to make them. Grado at least got that right in their decision to focus on 32 ohm cans and maximize the potential of such a thing. I'm not a fan of sr or rs series grado but the 500 and hf2 are excellent for 20th century 'traditional' music. One of the few natural options left. Yes despite the e/q curve, the actual sound produced for guitar, bass, drum, piano, horns, vocal etc is quite natural, and enjoyable to listen to with a nice balance of 'color', detail, punch, accuracy, comfort, price, smoothness/edge. The grado is not an analytical phone or for electronic music I agree. It is a one trick poney- for reproducing music made by humans. And because that's the only pony I ride, it's all good. The magnum driver variant is another attempt at the new grado sound - i.e. grado presentation with some senn smoothness and lushness. I feel it's a bit more colored sound even than grado however but in trade it has more clarity and a clearer background than the 500/hf2. The hifiman I had was not too appealing to me, but then again, I'm sure it was because I didn't have the proper amp/dac/source/cable etc

 
 

 

[Gradofan2]

 
 

Originally Posted by thelostMIDrange 

I'd recommend the (PS)500's to the OP. Why not choose the headphone that was designed to sound good without thousands of dollars of ancialliary gear...  
 
... I'm not a fan of sr or rs series grado but the (PS)500 and hf2 are excellent for 20th century 'traditional' music. One of the few natural options left. Yes despite the e/q curve, the actual sound produced for guitar, bass, drum, piano, horns, vocal etc is quite natural, and enjoyable to listen to with a nice balance of 'color', detail, punch, accuracy, comfort, price, smoothness/edge. The grado is not an analytical phone or for electronic music I agree. It is a one trick poney- for reproducing music made by humans. And because that's the only pony I ride, it's all good. 
 
The magnum driver variant is another attempt at the new grado sound - i.e. grado presentation with some senn smoothness and lushness. I feel it's a bit more colored sound even than grado however but in trade it has more clarity and a clearer background than the (PS)500/hf2.
 
The hifiman I had was not too appealing to me, but then again, I'm sure it was because I didn't have the proper amp/dac/source/cable/ etc.

 
My experience exactly.  
 
But... that was with the HifiMan EF-5 amp - which is supposed to match the HE500's well (according to HifiMan).  And... they weren't fully burnt in.  Both of which may have resulted in them having a thick, syrupy sound, with muddy / foggy / veiled bass and mids.  Whatever the cause... my other phones all are much better in all respects than the ones I had.  That may be a sound a lot of "hip-hop" types prefer... but not me.  I wasn't willing to buy other amps to try with them, or to fully burn them in, to see if they would clear up.  
 
Now then... at least one "Headfi Old-Timer," with similar tastes in music to mine and who's judgement I respect (he's not a "Newbe / Noob," or "Hip-Hopper"), tells me that with the Isabellina / Isabella amps and fully burnt in the HE500's are exceptional.  So... I tend to think they do clear up with the right amp (similar to the Isabellina / Isabella) and fully burnt in.  
 
So... as noted above... and as with Stax phones... be prepared to invest in "some heavy iron" to achieve that sound with the HE500's, unless your tastes in music are less refined.  With Grados you won't have to do that... though, you will have to make sure the amp has very low impedance and sufficient current to match them well (the Grado amps are great with them and not expensive), that they're fully burnt in... and maybe use the "tape mod," to tame their highs, and expand their soundstage a bit.  But, in my experience, the PS500's are about the best there is without major investments - though, with my set up, the AD2000's, the RS-1's, and modified "new version" HD580/600/650's are very, very close... and, perhaps better at times.  

 

[thelostMIDrange]

well if it's not the ohmage that is requiring particular amps for the he500, it must be some other quality. The point is, if the phone is designed to be so deficient without an amp, how could a maker offer such a product in good conscience without also supplying the proper amp to go with it? They should sell the complete package and reflect the complete cost imo. But I am old school, yes, I don't believe in partially designed products. When ford cranked out the mustang, it put the right engine in it, or at least offered it as an option. They didn't say to the consumer, here's potentially a 'top-tier' muscle car, go find the right v8 that fits in the engine compartment and finish it yourself at great expense............ I'll take that cookie now thank you very much.

 

[TMRaven]

They have a low sensitivity, that's about it.  Planar Magnetics are pretty infamous for having a low sensitivity, but HiFiMan has taken large strides in forwarding the tech these past few years, you can't say the same about specific other companies.  Asides the low sensitivity, planar magnetic drivers offer all kinds of technical superiorities over the cheaper dynamic drivers you see in many headphones.

 

[thelostMIDrange]

I agree the dynamic driver has limitations. but also has qualities an ortho, stat or planar do not. different animals.