Hifiman HE-500 or Grado PS500
Apr 27, 2012 at 2:26 PM Post #91 of 120
well i had writting a long post and before clicking submit happened to visit inner fidelity and well...
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/are-objective-headphone-measurements-relevant-audiophiles-subjective-experience
 
Apr 27, 2012 at 5:15 PM Post #92 of 120
 
Quote:
well i had writting a long post and before clicking submit happened to visit inner fidelity and well...
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/are-objective-headphone-measurements-relevant-audiophiles-subjective-experience

 

Good article, thanks for posting!
 
Apr 27, 2012 at 6:34 PM Post #93 of 120
It's certainly an interesting topic. At one point in the above link, the discussion turned to square waves and a compare of audeze,grado etc, pointing out possible pictorals of loose and tight graphs but what I find interesting is not that, since that is easily known from donning a set of grados, what is interesting is how there is never a mention, here or elsewhere about the possibility, even the remote chance, that there is such a thing as overtight bass. It's just assumed without question, the tighter the better. Natural bass is sometimes tight and sometimes loose, depending on one's gear, picking technique and the way it's recorded, but it's always within a range, it's never too sloppy or too tight. so maybe, maybe the best looking graph looks different than what they are looking for. Come on, it's a possibility that there are limits to tightness, punch, prat, and fidelity. More is not always better after a point............it reminds me about the increaing number of giant slalom skiers that have been dying in the last several years compared to when they didn't have the techno-adanced grease to put under their skis. their speed was limited in the past by lack of technology, and it was a good thing because the faster you get skiing down a hill the more tragic the result when you wipe out. And we have reached the point in skiing evolution where max safe normal natural speed has been reached and it's time to head back to normal town in the middle where all things find their natural resting place. look around in nature, everythings going up away from the middle in opposite directions and then falling back down. Things are not going faster and faster in a linear way. The seasons all have cycles, midpoints and perfect times as they have extremes. Some extrem-ists like the ends and live in the 120 degree desert heat, but most like the middle. Ask any statistician who is familiar with bell curves where most things are. Should bass be any different I ask myself?
 
Apr 27, 2012 at 6:47 PM Post #94 of 120
I don't really understand that argument.  If there's any natural bass recorded that's tight or rather loose, it will play back either tight or loose on any system that's truer to the source material.  Headphones with tight bass still play back loose bass if the recording calls for it.  There's a difference between that and headphones that just play loose bass no matter what.
 
Apr 27, 2012 at 6:55 PM Post #95 of 120
it's not an argument. i see your point. loose headphones should be called out as being such, but why not overly tight headphones is there no such thing?  I understand that tight phones will play back a loose recording but maybe they are not playing them back loose enough if that artist and recording engineer wanted really loose bass to express his point of view, an overly tight headphone would not be doing accurately relaying the recording........more generally, i am referring to graphs and their ability to be useful in predicting this or of being able to know what is most desirable. if what is pictured is desirable because it's more square. Maybe the signal input into one end of the machine sounds best when it comes out un-square in some way. I know it's reflex to assume the best stuff accurately translates a square wave back into a square wave, but maybe not. it's just a hypothesis. just an inquiry. But in the case of square waves I guess things can't be too square, so maybe a poor example. a straight e/q line is more applicable because it is artfully compensated by various means. It's arbitrary whereas a square wave is not
 
Apr 27, 2012 at 7:29 PM Post #96 of 120
Oh I'm sure there's plenty tension between hi-fi systems and songs that were mastered using certain equipment with certain equipment in mind.  For instance, I don't think a song mastered with and for 'phat' subs in any tennager's suv would sound too good on a pair of hi-fi headphones.  Then there's also the fact that some may prefer certain songs that were recorded horribly on their apple earbuds because they don't showcase every little clipping within the recording itself (extreme hypothetical)
 
But hi-fidelity means it strays truest to the source, if the artist mix'd and mastered something with a sloppy bass, then the hi-fi headphone that measures the best should play that exact said sloppy bass.  The only time you get differences is when the artist or engineers aren't using gear that's true to the source.
 
Apr 27, 2012 at 7:34 PM Post #97 of 120
your right, I guess I rule out those extremes right off the bat, and they are not what i'm talking about. I'm talking more about john bonhams drums. they are a little loose in reality, and by today's standards and i like them to stay that way when I listen. So I find some headphones that artificially make his drums sound a little too tight and punchy when I know they are not in reality. I'm talking much finer things than reproducing hiphop or anything electronic. Anything goes in that world, as they have no natural reference point. That's the big issue really is that of reference point. Grado has a real life reference point and most other designers use more math and abstraction to arrive at ideals. It's really two different worlds. I live in a purely analog world I guess.
 
Apr 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM Post #98 of 120
My examples don't even have to be refrained to just purely electronic music.  The same goes for natural instruments.  If they were recorded a certain way, the headphone with greater fidelity will play it back truest to the original recording.  If something was mastered using certain equipment, then whatever equipment is being used is the closest to what the artist intended.  
 
Are those last couple sentences of yours just coming from you, or is there any documentation of different companies saying how they approach their headphone designs?  Because it seems like a pretty bold statement to me.
 
Apr 27, 2012 at 7:43 PM Post #99 of 120
then we agree, as long as greater fidelity is defined as accuracy , balance and naturalness and not some ideal of prat and tightness. ......... but on the other subject, when is electronic deemed balanced and natural? there is no way to know, it's wide open. It has no natural reference point. man made sounds are limiltess....Sound generated from a trumpet for example has a natural range which is known to some. And that has to be used as the reference point. What someone chooses as his reference material influences things.  sennheiser wants their sets to sound good with electronic and zeppelin and i suggest such a thing is impossible. I think for headphones to evolve, they have to pick on eor the other and focus on it. Maybe that is why things have not improved much over the years.
 
Apr 27, 2012 at 7:52 PM Post #100 of 120
Many electronic instruments can be tuned just like natural instruments.  That's not really the point though.
 
If something measures to have a better square wave response it should be more true to the original source than something that isn't.  There is no adding tightness to sound.  You can only minimize the fidelity loss from sound, not make it better than what it naturally was.
 
Apr 27, 2012 at 8:05 PM Post #101 of 120
right, that's why the square wave wasn't a good example, but are you saying you've never heard a hifi product or system that didn't overdue something like tightness, pace, or clarity?  In other words, a positive quality can't be too much of a good thing? for example, naim stuff sounds a little to fast to me, alot of the high end amps are too clear as paradoxical as it may seem, and plenty of speakers are artificially tight. Again, I know I am in the minority. I am a punk rock n roll guy who likes hifi. But after a point it makes my records sound wrong. So if that is the case, the gear must be too good because I know what punk rock n roll sounds like coming out of the reharsal room. Sure engineers polish it, but taking all that into consideration, if a high end system can't accurately reproduce metallica kill em all, then it is not an accurate system. Systems designed just to produce accurate sound from certain hand picked audiphile recordings or electronica sounds different than one for 'traditional' music. You see no value in making a distinction I guess and maybe in an ideal world a headphone could do justice to metallica, miles davis and electronica but i haven't found one that does it all.
 
Apr 27, 2012 at 8:34 PM Post #102 of 120
 
Eh, I never really thought of Metallica to have the best recording quality to their songs.  It's kinda hard to say what a true electronic guitar should sound like as well, as at the end of the day they're being amped and played back through their own speakers as well, or some PA system for a live concert, and this isn't even taking into consideration what the many different distortion effects being applied to said guitars should ideally sound like -- so I think using something like Metallica for instance, isn't really a fair assessment of a hi-fi system.
 
Speaking of PA systems, even though they have intolerable amounts of distortion, some people strive to recreate that same type of sound and feeling.  So hi-fidelity could very well have different ideals so to say.  All just my opinion though.  
 
Apr 27, 2012 at 8:40 PM Post #103 of 120
you should check out the original lp pressings of kill em all. It's a very well recorded record. It's a reference for me. no doubts. That is exactly what a late 70's cranked marshall jmp pushed by a tubescreamer in front with gibson explorers and v's sounds like in reality. I have owned such a rig. A headphone needs to accurately reproduce that to be worthy ............but after their first 3 records things went downhill quick though as the 90's ushered in the digital age. It's been a dark ages for rock music for the last 20 years imo. but things are coming back around it seems and things are being recorded more natural analog and such and with this new device by endless analag, things are sure to rocket back in the right direction in the future
http://www.endlessanalog.com/what-is-clasp
 
 
Apr 28, 2012 at 5:34 AM Post #104 of 120
can we get back to the point now?
 
Apr 28, 2012 at 6:23 AM Post #105 of 120

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