[borrego]

  If you try to "fix" the treble peak of T1 with EQ or with different earpads, you will at the same time ruin the imaging. That is my experience with both T1 and T90. Catch-22. 
For me HE-500 is sonically a more complete headphone than T1. T90 is a great headphone too (in it's own way and especially taking into account the cost compared to T1).

 
My T1 is with serial# 16xxx and it does not longer has the treble peak that earlier revisions. And like I said, finding a right amp to pair with the T1 to show its full potential is tricky (not expensive though)
 
Once you start upgrading your source equipment (DAC, DDC, etc) with better resolution, separation, imaging capability, you will realize the HE-500 stop scaling up with the better source equipment earlier than the T1. This is assuming both the HE-500 and T1 are by proper amps.
 
The HE-6 will be a more complete headphone compare to the T1, not so with the HE-500. It is not to say I don't enjoy my HE-500 though. I am actually thinking of further modifying it to replace the stock heavy steel grids/screws/nuts with aluminum equivalents. These shall reduce the HE-500 weight for another 50 to 100 grams.

 

[malabargold]

You guys are talking about the Beyerdynamic T1 correct? 

 

[nickwin]

Accuracy has more to do with mere FR.

I can easily fix the T1 treble peak with EQ, but there is no way I can make the HE-500 to have the T1 imaging. Once you tune the T1 treble down a bit, you will find there are much more resolution in the treble frequency compare to the gross over treble of the HE-500.

Likewise, there is no way I can make the T1 bass goes as deep and as undistorted the HE-500 bass.

There are different meanings to "accuracy" but I mean accurate tonality which absolutely is the same thing as FR.  A flat FR means you hear the same sound at the same level as whats on the recording.  I call that accuracy.  You can't say the T1 with that peak is accurate, its adding 10db to whats on the recording, thats more than 3x the perceived volume.  Its just not going to accurately convey whats on the recording.  Yes there are other factors to overall accuracy, primarily harmonic distortion, and if you consider time, transients and decay, but IMO FR is first and foremost.
 


Here is a measurement of the v2 T1.  Still a 10+db peak.  Distortion is at least as high as the he500.  The impulse response and leading edge of square wave are not as clean as the he500 indicating worse behavior in the time domain.  I haven't seen a metric in which the T1 is more accurate than the he500.  Thats not to say that it doesn't sound subjectively accurate to you.

 

[bracko]

  You guys are talking about the Beyerdynamic T1 correct? 

Yes

 

[borrego]

  ..."I haven't seen a metric in which the T1 is more accurate than the he500."...

 
Now I get your point: You judge the T1 by looking at the various FR/CSD/Transient/Square wave test results available on the web, instead of spending time actually listening to the T1 with matching amplifier (high output impedance, low or no NFB circuit).
 
I have mentioned getting a amp to pair well with the T1 is tricky. The so call T1 treble peak will be much lower than typical test FR graph suggests if it is driven by a high output impedance amp. Without a proper amp, the T1 would usually sound worse than even an under power driven HE-500
 
I think I shall stop here talking the T1 and this is a HE-500 thread.

 

[nickwin]

Now I get your point: You judge the T1 by looking at the various FR/CSD/Transient/Square wave test results available on the web, instead of spending time actually listening to the T1 with matching amplifier (high output impedance, low or no NFB circuit).

I have mentioned getting a amp to pair well with the T1 is tricky. The so call T1 treble peak will be much lower than typical test FR graph suggests if it is driven by a high output impedance amp. Without a proper amp, the T1 would usually sound worse than even an under power driven HE-500

I think I shall stop here talking the T1 and this is a HE-500 thread.

Yeah sorry I should have prefaced that with "for people who believe in science" . I can assure you that measurement devices are accurate enough to easily and accurately measure FR. The measurements we have might not tell you everything but generally what they tell you is accurate.

That said I do have experience with other Byers with similar treble response. I always go by my ears in the end but my ears work on the same physics as measurement devices and they have always been in agreement with each other for me.

 

[borrego]

Yeah sorry I should have prefaced that with "for people who believe in science"

. I can assure you that measurement devices are accurate enough to easily and accurately measure FR.

That said I do have experience with other Byers with similar treble response. I always go by my ears in the end by my ears work on the same physics as measurement devices and they have always been in agreement with each other for me.

 
I can also assure to you 99.99% of those headphones measurement devices/setup are flawed and not "scientific" in any mean. The simply fact that those test and measurements are done using same amplifier, with the same output impedance value, with monotonic frequency sweep tones for different headphone driver designs make for actual music with easily 10+ different tones sounding simultaneously, make those test/measurement unscientific.
 
Headphones should only be measured/tested with their best paired amplifier together. I am pretty sure the HE-500 will also sound like sh#t when paired with an amp with 5mW max power and 100ohm output impedance.

 

[nickwin]

I can also assure to you 99.99% of those headphones measurement devices/setup are flawed and not "scientific" in any mean. The simply fact that those test and measurements are done using same amplifier, with the same output impedance value, with monotonic frequency sweep tones for different headphone driver designs make for actual music with easily 10+ different tones sounding simultaneously, make those test/measurement unscientific.

Headphones should only be measured/tested with their best paired amplifier together. I am pretty sure the HE-500 will also sound like sh#t when paired with an amp with 5mW max power and 100ohm output impedance.

I'm making the assumption that these measurements are done with an amp capable of adequate current without distortion and a flat FR (as any good tester would). As long as you do that its not going to make a huge difference in the measurements. Surely not a 10db at 10k difference unless something is very wrong. If you think otherwise I would say show me the measurements that show this. Measurments may not be a perfect representation of real music, but they ARE scientific. Your collecting objective data from a direct observation. You can make false assumptions based on that data just like any other scientific data but it's still accurate data. The bottom line is measurement microphones and electronics can be just as accurate (if not more) than the equipment used in recording so if your talking about recorded music the flaws in measurement devices are a moot point. Those same flaws are in all recorded music.


Lets just say we agree to disagree, we obviously have very different philosophies on this and that's alright!

 

[bracko]

That peak at 10k is definitely audible. 

 

[vlach]

I have both the HE-500 and the T1. The two headphones compliment to each other and each does something the other can't

Strengths of HE-500 over the T1:
- Undistorted and assertive bass response (assuming you have a powerful enough amp)
- "Weighty" vocal
- "Smooth" treble
- Better bass resolution and textures

Strengths of T1 over the HE-500
- 3D holographic sound imaging (please note that my HE-500 is already "black pearl" modded, and mounted with Audeze Vegan pads, both mods improve sense of the sound stage depth a lot)
- "Airy" vocal
- "Airy" treble
- Better mid and treble resolution and textures
- Comfort

I rate the T1 higher than the HE-500. With T1, more often you feel like you are listening to live music due to its better imaging capability. With HE-500, more often you feel you are listening to recordings.

It is easier to find an amp to pair well with the HE-500. Just look for an amp with enough power and current drive will do.

For T1, amp pairing is much more tricky

Well said.

I own both as well and would like to add that the T1 is more transparent and has better clarity. I use it almost exclusively for (very well recorded) vocal tracks. Once you've heard Ingram Washington's 'what a difference a day makes', it becomes very difficult to listen through any other headphone.

That said, i feel the HE-500 offers a richer, rounder, more organic and liquid presentation. It enters the equation for me when listening to jazz with creamy trumpets and when i want that extra 'fat' in saxophones.

I would say the HE-500 is a better all rounder, however i could not live without either headphone

 

[malabargold]

Do you have a link to the black pearl mod?

 

[borrego]

Do you have a link to the black pearl mod?

http://www.head-fi.org/t/692494/hifiman-fuzzor-mod-driver-backwave-felt-damping-modification/60#post_10798050

The mod is very effective to increase sound stage depth at moderate sound volume I usually listen at (around 82dB). Not as effective when the volume is turned real loud.

 

[borrego]

That said, i feel the HE-500 offers a richer, rounder, more organic and liquid presentation. It enters the equation for me when listening to jazz with creamy trumpets and when i want that extra 'fat' in saxophones.

Agreed. But to me the HE-500 is the most euphonic headphone in my collection (till I receive my E-mu Teak). I find it really enjoyablw for short listening session but kind of become bored/annoyed by its euphonic sound signature after 2 hours.

It is like, having a hot chocolate drink in a winter morning is great. But not so to keep having chocolate drink during lunch/afternoon tea/dinner/supper the rest of the day. My T1 is like distilled water.

 

[Liu Junyuan]

Agreed. But to me the HE-500 is the most euphonic headphone in my collection (till I receive my E-mu Teak). I find it really enjoyablw for short listening session but kind of become bored/annoyed by its euphonic sound signature after 2 hours.

It is like, having a hot chocolate drink in a winter morning is great. But not so to keep having chocolate drink during lunch/afternoon tea/dinner/supper the rest of the day. My T1 is like distilled water.

I respect your position. It sounds like you should try the HE-6 properly driven. They synthesize beautifully the hot chocolate and distilled water and then take everything up a notch. Magical is the best adjective I can think of. I could also see, though, someone saying the HE-500s are less colored than the T1 (as if color actually mattered as a criteria for me). I still have yet to hear the T1 and would love to have the opportunity, especially the first version. 

 

[elwappo99]

  That peak at 10k is definitely audible. 

 
Yea the T1 is one of the most incredibly bright headphones I've ever heard, outside the realm of Grados. Doesn't matter which amp, the design is fatally flawed and there will always be a ton of treble ringing because it is pretty much a closed headphone.