[Yanec]

As I understand this method is used in other Delta-Sigma Daps for sound correction purposes and to make the sound “cleaner” .

I just wanted to explain the difference and how digital processing can affect sound quality

You got all of that wrong. You should learn before explaining but, again, it's off topic. Please let's keep the thread clean and on point.

 

[MaxBass]

My explanation above is for those who want to learn something and explore the reality why R2R actually sound pleasant.

No need to reply to me with opposite claims. We can agree to disagree. Honestly, most of your claims are very far from the truth but I really don't insist for you to agree with me. It isn't necessary for you to actually understand what are the actual reasons behind that, but if that's interesting to anyone, my text above explains it.

It is great that we agree in our love for R2R sound, that's the key part and FC6 sounds quite pleasing.

Let's leave it at that as we are going off topic in the FC6 thread.

My response was directly addressing the points you raised and aimed to correct the misinformation presented in your original comment.
I'm not veering off-topic rather I'm ensuring that the discussion remains grounded in factual accuracy and informed understanding.
It’s crucial to challenge and clarify statements that could mislead or confuse those new to audio technology.

My intention isn’t to prove a point out of personal bias but to ensure that anyone reading this understands the capabilities and distinctions of R2R DACs without being swayed by subjective generalizations presented as universal truths.

I must strongly challenge the sweeping inaccuracies in your comment about R2R DACs. It's frankly wrong to claim that they are 'terrible'

in measurements or incapable of properly handling standard resolutions like 16-bit/44.1 kHz. This assertion shows a significant misunderstanding of modern audio technology. R2R DACs are not only fully competent but also excel in various aspects that make high-fidelity audio desirable.

Labeling R2R DACs as inherently flawed and suggesting that these flaws make them somehow more appealing than delta-sigma DACs is not only misleading but also diminishes the technological achievements of R2R engineering. It’s a disservice to both the audio community and the developers of these devices to spread such gross generalizations.

Your claim that R2R DACs do not produce a natural sound while glorifying the 'naturalness' of delta-sigma DACs is an oversimplified and baseless opinion presented as fact. Sound quality is deeply subjective, and the assertion that one is universally better than the other without acknowledging personal preference is narrow-minded.

It's clear that you prefer the sound signature of delta-sigma DACs but don’t make the mistake of presenting your subjective preferences as technical gospel.

Let's stick to facts and respect the diverse preferences and experiences of all audio lovers.

 

[Yanec]

My response was directly addressing the points you raised and aimed to correct the misinformation presented in your original comment.
I'm not veering off-topic rather I'm ensuring that the discussion remains grounded in factual accuracy and informed understanding.
It’s crucial to challenge and clarify statements that could mislead or confuse those new to audio technology.

My intention isn’t to prove a point out of personal bias but to ensure that anyone reading this understands the capabilities and distinctions of R2R DACs without being swayed by subjective generalizations presented as universal truths.

I must strongly challenge the sweeping inaccuracies in your comment about R2R DACs. It's frankly wrong to claim that they are 'terrible'

in measurements or incapable of properly handling standard resolutions like 16-bit/44.1 kHz. This assertion shows a significant misunderstanding of modern audio technology. R2R DACs are not only fully competent but also excel in various aspects that make high-fidelity audio desirable.

Labeling R2R DACs as inherently flawed and suggesting that these flaws make them somehow more appealing than delta-sigma DACs is not only misleading but also diminishes the technological achievements of R2R engineering. It’s a disservice to both the audio community and the developers of these devices to spread such gross generalizations.

Your claim that R2R DACs do not produce a natural sound while glorifying the 'naturalness' of delta-sigma DACs is an oversimplified and baseless opinion presented as fact. Sound quality is deeply subjective, and the assertion that one is universally better than the other without acknowledging personal preference is narrow-minded.

It's clear that you prefer the sound signature of delta-sigma DACs but don’t make the mistake of presenting your subjective preferences as technical gospel.
In the audiophile world we should strive for more nuanced and accurate discussions rather than making bold claims that can misinform less experienced enthusiasts.
Let's stick to facts and respect the diverse preferences and experiences of all audio lovers.

1. To my preference and picking sides:
I prefer R2R to Delta-Sigma, don't tell me what I prefer. But this isn't a football game it's not about picking a team to cheer for. There are good and bad DACs from both types and the good ones are indistinguishable in blind abx testing.

2. To the objective part. Measurements proving you are wrong, since you suggest to stick to facts:

• A pocket, cheap Delta-Sigma DAC costing less than $80: Tanchjim Space Not a single r2r can match that SINAD and DT. Perhaps only totl $5K+ Holos tweaked by Kitsune.
• A hyped in reviews and one of the better measuring desktop flagship $1000+ R2R: Schumann
• A R2R dongle DAC not even clear the DR to play transparent 16/44.1 Cayin RU6. (btw, read carefully the subjective assessment at the end, same points as mine basically)

My claims from my previous post are now confirmed with objective measurements, otoh your speculations contradict the objective measurements.

And to end this - an interesting read on R2R and D-S compared.

 

[joe]

Mod note: Guys - let's cool off and stay on the FC6. Feel free to take any in depth scientific discussion to Sound Science.

 

[Yanec]

@Joe Bloggs, you mentioned both that HDR shouldn't work in NOS mode and also that you heard some differences yourself with it ON and OFF in NOS mode. That's confusing, I know you warned it's a hole but the contradiction just leads to more curiosity.

Can you please share some more details for the curious? Thanks!

 

[MaxBass]

You got all of that wrong. You should learn before explaining but, again, it's off topic. Please let's keep the thread clean and on point.

I want to clarify that my comments have been completely on-topic, as I have been specifically discussing the Hiby FC6 not Cayin or random R2R DAC theories.

I've explained the differences between filters on the FC6 discussed whether there is any roll-off which I have tested both by ear and with technical tools and talked about the noise characteristics of the device which anyone can verify for yourselves.

Your responses on the other hand seem to diverge into theoretical discussions that stray from the specific device we are supposed to be discussing.

Your tone suggests a superiority that is not conducive to a productive discussion as you repeatedly and offensively claim that I am off-topic and uninformed.

 

[Yanec]

I want to clarify that my comments have been completely on-topic, as I have been specifically discussing the Hiby FC6 not Cayin or random R2R DAC theories.

I've explained the differences between filters on the FC6 discussed whether there is any roll-off which I have tested both by ear and with technical tools and talked about the noise characteristics of the device which anyone can verify for yourselves.

Your responses on the other hand seem to diverge into theoretical discussions that stray from the specific device we are supposed to be discussing.

Your tone suggests a superiority that is not conducive to a productive discussion as you repeatedly and offensively claim that I am off-topic and uninformed.

You challenged my opinion on R2R claiming I am wrong. I suggested to agree to disagree. You refused claiming for undisputed universal truth of your unsupported wrong statements. That leads nowhere my friend - truth in this case is measurable, not snake oil. I provided the objective data supporting all my statements which you claimed wrong.

With that aside:
You claimed you "tested with technical tools" the FC6. To close this one too, below are the off a cliff rolled-off highs (actually not reaching 20kHz) and insufficient dynamic range of the FC6 I mentioned.
As actually measured, opposite to your empty speculations.

Frequency Response:

Dynamic Range:

SINAD:

I didn't want to provide these measurements in this thread. I have great respect for Joe and I applaud HiBy's engineering efforts and innovation. As I wrote already, I like how the FC6 sounds. It's just not because of how it measures.

 

[MaxBass]

You challenged my opinion on R2R claiming I am wrong. I suggested to agree to disagree. You refused claiming for undisputed universal truth of your unsupported wrong statements. That leads nowhere my friend - truth in this case is measurable, not snake oil. I provided the objective data supporting all my statements which you claimed wrong.

With that aside:
You claimed you "tested with technical tools" the FC6. To close this one too, below are the rolled-off highs and insufficient dynamic range of the FC6 I mentioned.
As actually measured, opposite to your empty speculations.

Frequency Response:




Dynamic Range:

SINAD:

I didn't want to provide these measurements in this thread. I have great respect for Joe and I applaud HiBy's engineering efforts and innovation. As I wrote already, I like how the FC6 sounds. It's just not because of how it measures.

Scale sensitivity can be exaggerated depending on the scale used, a few decibels of roll-off may appear substantial ,
Edit: ( but this does not mean that high frequencies are inaudible as are there detailed, smooth, very dense but not aggressive .The sub bass has zero roll-off to my ears )

The roll-off doesn't drop below the threshold of hearing and is for all people clearly perceivable and audible at both ends, with great dynamics being very well controlled and transparent enough.

Many IEMs are overly aggressive in these frequencies and this DAC helps to tame them down by a bit making the sound smoother more enjoyable and easier to listen to and also that’s the reason why we bought this device ???

Synergy is also very important as I mentioned, IEMs are crucial if not the most important factor !!!!!!!!!

This tiny awesome dongle DAC can range from warm to very cold, analytical and extended as I have tested with various flagship IEMs .

The device is high-res certified like most devices nowadays and can reproduce and decode any resolution especially this small amazing tiny device showcasing finer details with ease.

So please is no question about it that the FC6 is the best tiny dongle device ever at least for me !

 

[Yanec]

Scale sensitivity can be exaggerated depending on the scale used, a few decibels of roll-off may appear substantial , this does not mean that high frequencies and especially the bass roll-off are NOT audible.

The roll-off doesn't drop below the threshold of hearing and is for all people clearly perceivable and audible at both ends, with great dynamics being very well controlled and transparent enough.

Many IEMs are overly aggressive in these frequencies and this DAC helps to tame them down by a bit making the sound smoother more enjoyable and easier to listen to and also that’s the reason why we bought this device ???

Synergy is also very important as I mentioned, IEMs are crucial if not the most important factor !!!!!!!!!

This tiny awesome dongle DAC can range from warm to very cold, analytical and extended as I have tested with various flagship IEMs .

The device is high-res certified like most devices nowadays and can reproduce and decode any resolution especially this small amazing tiny device showcasing finer details with ease.

So please is no question about it that the FC6 is the best tiny dongle device ever at least for me !

Totally agree that (subjectively) it is a very nice device.

And totally agree on the importance of synergy in the case of iems. This thing is the only DAC that saves my ears from Crin's Dioko, which I like in every other aspect besides the bloody highs.

Also plays very well with other much better but still bright iems like the Kiwi Ears Quintet, Timeless AE, Zetian Wu and the Thieaudio Monarch MkIII. I don't use wired headphones, so can't comment on synergies there.

 

[TYATYA]

The device is high-res certified

With roll off -4.5dB

 

[MaxBass]

With roll off -4.5dB

Note!
The settings shown in the graph include oversampling and a selected filter. The comments are based on this graph and not on the NOS (Non-Oversampling) mode where there should be zero roll-off.

@Yanec
Could you please provide us with the graph showing the NOS mode?

If I am proven wrong, I would kindly ask @HiByMusic to provide us with more information.

 

[Yanec]

Note!
The settings shown in the graph include oversampling and a selected filter. The comments are based on this graph and not on the NOS (Non-Oversampling) mode where there should be zero roll-off.

@Yanec
Could you please provide us with the graph showing the NOS mode?

If I am proven wrong, I would kindly ask @HiByMusic to provide us with more information.

FC6 NOS and OS:

It is usually the OS mode that is more extended, at least with the RU6. The NOS mode (which I do like) looks for both dongles like a cassette deck frequency response (perhaps that's why I like it ).

The FR measurements are courtesy of ClieOS

 

[MaxBass]

It is usually the OS mode that is more extended, at least with the RU6.

The NOS mode (which I do like) looks for both dongles like a cassette deck frequency response (perhaps that's why I like it ).

The FR measurements are courtesy of ClieO

I must insist that in NOS mode there should be zero roll-off, as this is the expected characteristic of NOS as with my ears in NOS I don’t hear any roll-off.

@HiByMusic please provide us with information regarding this. If you do not respond to this discussion I will contact you directly to request further details.

 

[Yanec]

I must insist that in NOS mode there should be zero roll-off, as this is the expected characteristic of NOS as with my ears in NOS I don’t hear any roll-off.

@HiByMusic please provide us with information regarding this. If you do not respond to this discussion I will contact you directly to request further details.

The typical cause of rolled off frequency response in pure NOS R2R dacs is the sinc function.

The theoretical output of a DAC without oversampling follows a sinc function, which inherently rolls off at higher frequencies. This is due to the way the samples are reconstructed into a continuous signal, where the sinc function's side lobes diminish in amplitude as frequency increases, leading to a decrease in high-frequency content.

Mind you, this leads to a attenuation of high frequencies that is often observed in natural conditions, so this is not necessarily a bad thing.

R2R are often described as natural or analog because in many natural settings and in analog gear the highs do roll off. So, while clearly not high res or transparent it might be a sound character very familiar and thus pleasing for many listeners

I am one of those perverts who like it....I have many really high resolving DAPs and DACs but very often go out with the HiFiMan 603 (teen years old r2r) sick....

 

[MaxBass]

The typical cause of rolled off frequency response in pure NOS R2R dacs is the sinc function.

The theoretical output of a DAC without oversampling follows a sinc function, which inherently rolls off at higher frequencies. This is due to the way the samples are reconstructed into a continuous signal, where the sinc function's side lobes diminish in amplitude as frequency increases, leading to a decrease in high-frequency content.

Mind you, this leads to a attenuation of high frequencies that is often observed in natural conditions, so this is not necessarily a bad thing.

R2R are often described as natural or analog because in many natural settings and in analog gear the highs do roll off. So, while clearly not high res or transparent it might be a sound character very familiar and thus pleasing for many listeners

I am one of those perverts who like it....I have many really high resolving DAPs and DACs but very often go out with the HiFiMan 603 (r2r older than many forum members) sick....

I understand the theoretical basis you've outlined where a natural roll-off at higher frequencies occurs due to the characteristics of the sinc function.

Could you please provide more details about the equipment and methodology used for these measurements?
Precision in these measurements is crucial .

For clarity especially for other users who might join this discussion we are examining the characteristics beyond the typical audible frequency spectrum as there is no audible roll off in the NOS mode .