[Berlioz]

Hello,

I need some help creating my first high end setup. Ok, that was a big lie - I need a lot of help creating it. Long post alert.

Here's my situation:

It looks like I'll be in school for a long time (10 years or so), so I want to create a setup that will hold its own through that length of time.

I've done a lot of reading on the boards, and on other sites, books, etc. I've also demoed a lot of headphones, and have come to the conclusion that I prefer a neutral sound that prioritizes imaging, clarity, and breadth of sound stage. I love all music, but I especially like Classical, Classic Rock, Electronica, Opera, and Swing. Oh and lots of Jazz of course.

This is partly why I have an interesting situation. I'm starting from a completely clean slate. I have $2000 in disposable cash right now.

I see Marantz CD5003's going for very cheap on accessories4less. Acceptable high-end transport?

No idea about the DAC.

For the amp, I'd prefer a tube amp. I've tried a few and I found the higher end ones did not have any of those distortion problems that some SS proponents accuse tubes of having. Also being able to do tube rolling seems pretty cool.

Ideally, I'd like to get a balanced cable for the phones, so I'll need a balanced amp. It would be nice to have an amp that can accept both balanced and 1/4" inputs though. I might want to play around with another pair of cans.

Most importantly, I'd like to do justice to the headphones. I don't mind saving for a long time. If my system isn't complete until this time next year that's cool with me. I'm pulling double shifts over the summer just so I can save up for an amp, whatever it may be. I'd rather save for a while, get a high product and save money in the long run, then constantly upgrade in small increments. Of course there will be better stuff in the future, but taking big leaps is better than making small ones.

Thank you for any comments!

 

[Uncle Erik]

Stop yourself from spending like crazy now. Get a mid-fi setup first and kick the mid-fi around for a year or two before committing serious money.

No matter what people recommend, you will not know what you actually like until you hear it yourself. Get a pair of common, baseline headphones like the HD-650, DT880, K-701, RS-1, etc. and see how you like them. Buy used and sell them to buy others. Take notes of your listening impressions.

After you've been through a fair number of headphones over several months, you'll begin to understand what you like and what you don't. From there, you can make a good decision about the high-end headphones you want.

After you decide on headphones, then find an amp that will properly drive them. I know balanced is hugely popular, but I feel no need for it. Be sure to read up on it, and I don't mean just the glowing reviews/sales literature you'll find. Be sure to read the arguments against balanced, too. Further, keep in mind that not every piece of gear marketed as balanced actually is. XLR connectors are sometimes put on single ended gear just because the marketers know they can charge $500, $1,000 or more because the balanced die-hards will pay it. If you do go this route, beef up your technical understanding so you will be able to tell the difference between real and fake balanced equipment.

 

[El_Doug]

Considering you are the type to shoot for the moon right off the bat (not necessarily a bad thing), I believe that you will grow disgruntled with the hobby, and discontent with your setup, if you were to go with Erik's route. Most of us prefer starting low, working our way up - no need to spend our life's savings on something we may not enjoy, never use, or even regret purchasing. However it is foolish to deny that many people simply love buying the best of anything right off the bat, no doubt enjoying the sound, but also enjoying the ego boost. There is also something to be said for the increased perceived enjoyment you will gain, simply by not being concerned that you under-spent. These are simply two paths you can choose. In the long-run, you'll prefer the slow route, there is no question in my mind.

That being said, I knew a guy who knew nothing about astronomy, bought a 14'' reflector, TE cooled CCD, and ridiculous EQ mount... and he truly did get into the hobby of astrophotography. However, his pictures still don't compare to those of experienced hobbyists with 4'' refracters and DSLR's. In the same way, you will almost certainly love an HE90 powered by a BHSE, sourced by a high-end Technics reel-to-reel with audiophile recordings copied only 1 generation away from the master tape: but you certainly will not appreciate it in the same way as an experienced head-fi'er would.

Save your double shifts, forgo a B52 and Meridian CDP until you have a much more stable income. that money will be a godsend when you want to scavange for a down payment on a house.


THAT WAS LONG, I APOLOGIZE

$2200 can get you HD800's and a used benchmark dac, but realize that these are HUGE investments that you will be making - make sure you go to a local Head-Fi meet and demo demo demo!!!

Also, are you SURE you dont want to try electrostats?

 

[Berlioz]

I appreciate both of your posts. I do shoot for the moon yes, but it has nothing to do with my ego (I hope!). It just seems to make more fiscal sense. Why spend $500 on a pair of headphones, when a year later you're just going to sell them for $350, and buy the $1500 dollar ones you really wanted in the first place.

Uncle Erik, thank you for the advice on balanced connectors. I've read through some electronics texts and I understand the differences that a balanced set up would produce. Are they audible? I don't know. I personally haven't tried a balanced set-up, and I should obviously do that before pursuing a balanced amp.

El Doug, you're very right about the slow route being a better choice. I do like getting off to a good start though. I just want my purchases to be strong picks, that's all. As for the electrostats, I've read that they are difficult to service. Never heard one myself. Their sound signature does seem up my alley. Never liked the look of the Stax phones though. And this is disposable income we're talking about. My other savings are pretty good for the random college student that I am, and I'm not about to dip into them to satisfy my hobby.

Again, thanks for the comments. Can anyone recommend a pair of cans that are reasonably priced and will satisfy the sound I like. I heard my friends W5000's. Completely blown away by them, made my IEM's sound like crap, but they are pricey. For that much, one might as well upgrade to HD800's. Ah, there I go again.

 

[hifidk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berlioz /img/forum/go_quote.gif It just seems to make more fiscal sense. Why spend $500 on a pair of headphones, when a year later you're just going to sell them for $350, and buy the $1500 dollar ones you really wanted in the first place.

In that case, I would strongly recommend you to get the used pairs of popular headphones first to try and find your favorite sound signature. That way you will spend much less (you will not lose much money buying and selling back used gears here) and find what you really like. From there on you can choose which high-end headphone you want to choose and build your system around it. Many head-fiers can recommend a lot of good rigs within your stated budget, but no one will know for sure that you will like them. You are the only one who will know what you want.

If you are against buying used gear, then I suggest you to read a lot of reviews here on head-fi and choose accordingly. However, there is much more risk that you will end up with $2000 worth of system that you don't really appreciate.

Oh, by the way, I should note that this is coming from a person who never had any high-end headphones. So, take what you wish.

 

[atothex]

Be ready to put your money where your mouth is, or kindly get out of the Hi End forum.

I assume you're going with all new stuff. $2000 will get you some seriously nice headphones, but it's not enough for a true high end tube amp or standalone DAC. MAYBE the Woo 22? I'm gonna guess that's more upper mid end. If you're down with physical media, then the Sony SACD player is really the only supposedly high end source in your price range.

Good luck scrapin for money.

 

[Berlioz]

Well, I'm open to any suggestions. This is not going to be a "true" high end set-up. It's going to be either upper mid or low high. The differences between the two seem to be decided more by price than performance though, IMHO.

I've heard the HD-600, HD-650, Grado SR-60's, W5000, AKG 701, and the Denon AH-D5000. The Grado's are seriously misrepresented here, but I am quite sure I don't like Grado sound anyways. Out of all of them, I liked the W5000, AKG 701, and HD-600 the best. The AKG was probably my favourite actually - I like hearing all the little details, but it did not have the imaging or soundstage of the W5000. HD-600 had tight and convincing bass impact but didn't impress me as much as the other two.

So I have an idea of what sound I'm into, but I know it's going to be expensive sound. Should I just go mid fi then? Pick up 702's? The little boy in me is sad.

 

[hifidk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berlioz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, I'm open to any suggestions. This is not going to be a "true" high end set-up. It's going to be either upper mid or low high. The differences between the two seem to be decided more by price than performance though, IMHO. I've heard the HD-600, HD-650, Grado SR-60's, W5000, AKG 701, and the Denon AH-D5000. The Grado's are seriously misrepresented here, but I am quite sure I don't like Grado sound anyways. Out of all of them, I liked the W5000, AKG 701, and HD-600 the best. The AKG was probably my favourite actually - I like hearing all the little details, but it did not have the imaging or soundstage of the W5000. HD-600 had tight and convincing bass impact but didn't impress me as much as the other two. So I have an idea of what sound I'm into, but I know it's going to be expensive sound. Should I just go mid fi then? Pick up 702's? The little boy in me is sad.

Oh, so you already have heard of many popular headphones. I think if you will be able to get many suggestions now that others know what kind of sound you like. I have a feeling that many will recommend HD800 because they just came out but I wouldn't know much about W5000 or HD800 because I've never tried them.

 

[atothex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berlioz /img/forum/go_quote.gif The differences between the two seem to be decided more by price than performance though, IMHO.

I just suggested a $1000 SACD player for a serious Summit-Fi source...

 

[meta21]

Quote:

... I have $2000 in disposable cash right now.

HD 800 will set you back for US$1,400. So you still have $600 for the next

I just get my 1st HD 650 and I would like to follow you in the next step hi-end something

Quote:

High-end Audio Forum: Discussion of high-end audio. (This is where our "Sorry about your wallet" slogan will ring most true.)

Sorry, my wallet is very limit

 

[seacard]

I'd go with a great DAC (used) with a solid headphone out (HeadRoom Desktop, Benchmark, Lavry) with the HD800s and be done with it. I know those headphone outs are not as respected here as some of the products designed in people's garages or small shops (e.g. Rudistor, Ray Samuels, Singlepower, etc.), but spend some time reading up on it and make sure you understand what an amp does and does not do.

I went from iPod earbuds (approximately free) to the HE90 / ES1 setup (approximately $15000), and have heard everything in between. You need to judge these things with your own ear, but I can only tell you what I have learned after spendings tens of thousands of dollars on this hobby.

 

[Berlioz]

Thanks for all the advice. I feel a bit embarrassed now reading over this thread. I think I got in way over my head. I have ordered a very nice mid fi source/transport (Cambridge Audio 640C v2), and I think I will just continue to demo headphones from here on in and REALLY decide on the sound I like. I have a feeling it will be the HD800 anyways, but then again, there's still tons of hype about it so I'll wait until that dies down.

AKG 702's are extremely cheap (relatively speaking) on amazon so that might be my first pair. I have a vintage Sansui Receiver from 1968 here, with a headphone output. I think I'll use that until I can decide on what headphone amp I'd like to get. It's a meaty, solid looking thing, and I think it can drive any headphones adequately, although I expect the sound to be anything but neutral.

Thanks again, as this setup comes together I'd like to post some impressions and do comparisons of various headphones. There might be a few people out there interested in how a vintage amp handles high impedance/low inductance headphones.

 

[Uncle Erik]

I don't think you'd get bored or waste your time with moderately priced gear. You don't have to spend $1k+ for great headphones. You can get (and sell) a used HD-600 or K-701 for about $200. While I don't much care for the K-701, many do, and my ears don't belong to anyone else. You might love them. Don't think you're settling for less, either. A HD-600 is an excellent headphone and deserves its popularity. You'll be able to resell it for what you paid and then try something new. Having done this, trust me, you're going to have fun trying them out, listening, meeting people to buy/sell and so on.

And how much time did you spend with the ones you like, anyhow? Was it a brief listen a few times, or did you put a few weeks or even months on them? There's a huge difference between a few hours and a few months. You'll notice lots of details and subtleties come out. And if you buy and sell used, you'll come out without losing anything.

As was pointed out, the problem with jumping into the high end is ending up several thousand into something you might not enjoy a few months in. Gear can take weeks or even months to reveal its character. Before committing a lot of money, make sure you do it right. The risks are higher with the high-end, too. If you don't like something, it can take a long time to sell and you'll lose quite a bit on the transaction if you bought new.

Keep in mind that you will enjoy the mid-priced units. Sure, it's easy to bliss out with HD-800. But I've had more than a few transcendatal moments with a $150 AKG K-501. It will be the same for you. Move through a string of mid-fi products and focus on enjoying them. You will, then you'll refine your tastes with the high end.

Edit: just saw your reply. Use the Sansui! Those are way cool. Stop by the DIY Forum ifnyou might want to upgrade the power supply caps or mod it. Since it's a power amp, give some (heretical) thought to a pair of used speakers, too. Personally, I put used Magnepan MMGs on it.

Also, make time to attend a meet or two. You'll love them and you never know which direction you'll go in after hearing something at one or getting to talking with another member.

 

[edstrelow]

Personally I would suggest a low priced electrostatic system to start with. You can get the portable Stax SR001Mk2 amplifier and phones for $250-$350 new, amp and phones together. Yes you heard right, that price includes the amp!

For that price you get the best portable system, so that while you may get better full-size set-ups in the future you will always have something that is first class. Particularly since you are in school, this set could be very handy.

Secondly, this little set competes well against many larger systems. I would argue that these, while not perfect, will still do somethings better than any dynamic.

The best dynamics I have heard were the HD800 balanced set-up by Headroom's at Canjam. It was quite impressive and had better dynamics and frequency response than this set-up but it still had the residual graininess of sound that you only avoid with stat drivers. You just can't get around basic physics that large light drivers reproduce sound better than small heavy drivers. Headroom's set-up was about $3K for phones and amp about the same price as Stax' top models.

You can use SR001 as a home based unit either using the 2 rechargable AA batteries or a 4.5 volt adapter.

Get a decent silver mini-mini interconnect (used $20+ in the sales section) and use it with a portable cd player or Ipod, or with a a full-size unit with a mini-RCA adapter (preferably silver. )

Alternatively look into some of the older Stax phones and amps in the sales sections here, or on Ebay. The phones can last 30-50 years. You can get an early, low bias model such as the original Lambda, with a transformer to allow it to be driven from a conventional amp for $200-300.00. I wouldn't 't bother with electrets however.

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by edstrelow /img/forum/go_quote.gif Secondly, this little set competes well against many larger systems. I would argue that these, while not perfect, will still do somethings better than any dynamic.

You won't have to argue that point very hard, the SR-001/003 is pretty much the fastest headphone out there and no dynamic will ever be able to come anywhere close to this kind of speed by definition. The midrange is also fantastic and you will struggle to find anything better in the dynamic realm this side of the R10. For female vocals these headphones are nothing short of unbelievable. Frequency extension is a problem and I still maintain that the basic amp sucks, but these headphones do give a very good idea about the 'stat sound - lush, smooth, fast, effortless, and endlessly yet unobtrusively detailed with some very good bass too. Obviously 'stats vary just as much as dynamics do and 'stat sound signatures will be all over the place but if you like the 001/003 then the O2 is the natural step up with a very similar tonality. The O2 Mk2 is a bit colder in the mids with more emphasized midbass so its tonality is somewhere between the 001 and the SR-404, but it is otherwise similar.

I would get that, or the 005a system if portability isn't a requirement, and a good source. Or go vintage, or get the ESP950 with a Stax amp, or save up for a bit and then get the O2/717 which can be had used for $2300 give or take a few hundred. But, the unifying thread in all of this is that a good source is an absolute must, and no an iMod is not a good source, and neither is a Zero DAC. We're talking sources here that make a Benchmark DAC1 sound tinny and metallic. They don't have to be expensive necessarily but they have to be there.

It is possible to spend an arm and a leg in the electrostatic realm, as well as the other arm and the other leg too, but you can also have a very competitive setup for a very reasonable amount.