[commando]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluesDaddy but was ultimately turned off by the fact that A-T apparently has some kind of exclusive distribution deal with audiocubes which keeps the price inflated.

http://www.bluetin.com/headphones/he..._high_end.html

 

[Evilson]

The price may be inflated or not, but I would have paid even more for my A900

I would easily recommend them for home use, but dunno about studio use.

 

[visara]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilson The price may be inflated or not, but I would have paid even more for my A900 I would easily recommend them for home use, but dunno about studio use.

Yes, this is exactly what makes me hesitate. Searching these forums, I do find a lot of positive feedback on the A900, but pretty much zero comments about their suitability for music production. They look very tempting for home-listening, but I'm worried they wouldn't be neutral enough for mixing work. They are easily driven and sound good without a headphone amp, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluesDaddy I think the HD25s do that admirably for a sub $150 set of headphones.

Are they sub $150 phones in US? The lowest reliable price I found within EU was Meier-Audio's 175 EUR, that is, roughly 210$! This is the same price he is selling the AKG K 271 Studio (which I think I could actually find cheaper elsewhere). Kyrie's confident assertions on them being non-neutral as well as the apparent lack of soundstage also make me irresolute...

Though it's still unclear to me what is really meant by soundstage? How useful/necessary would this be for music production?

I asked Meier for advice too, and his comments made the AKG K 271 Studio seem a slightly better pick: "The K271 is light weight, has comfortable earpads, and a nice neutral sound. Sonic isolation is not very high but if that's not a must then this phone is truly recommended... The HD25-1 are my favourite headphones for travelling and portable applications. They offer good dynamic sound and are small and sturdy. The K271 is more of a studio headphone. Larger and more comfortable."

But then, from the Head-fi archives: "These seem to be quite demanding phones and I can't imagine anybody using them on portables or unamped and actually liking the results." - "The K271s are a powerful, tight, neutral, detailed headphone with incredibly deep bass and beautiful, soaring highs. The catch is they sound like crap unless you feed them through a really mean amp" Also, many many comments on them lacking bass. Some people seem to prefer AKG K240S over the 271.

On the other hand: "I dont think that they really need a badass amp to sound good. In fact they are a fairly easy to drive phones. I run mine out of a reciever, while obviously I could benifit from an amp, they still sound great." - "They strike a good balance between revealing and enjoyable sound, which is important for long duration monitorin sessions."

Ouch ouch my head hurts. People shouldn't disagree. Hate having to do this decision without being able to have a listen to the phones...

The HD 25-1 would have the advantage that even if I later do choose to ge a headphone amp with, say, HD600s and/or decent monitors for music production, theyd still be useful as solid phones for portable listening. How much does a worthwhile headphone amp cost, anyway?

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by visara Though it's still unclear to me what is really meant by soundstage? How useful/necessary would this be for music production?

Not sure how useful it is for production, but soundstage is how close you feel to the music with a set of headphones [as far as I know anyways]. The soundstage of the AKG K271 Studio can be described as sitting in a medium sized room with the band playing just for you at the opposite end. Thier soundstage gives them a very personal feel, while still proving good separation of instruments and imaging. I have heard others say that certain headphones put them in a specific row at a concert or have no soundstage [Grado]. People seem to have different ideas on this though... Quote:

Originally Posted by visara I asked Meier for advice too, and his comments made the AKG K 271 Studio seem a slightly better pick: "The K271 is light weight, has comfortable earpads, and a nice neutral sound. Sonic isolation is not very high but if that's not a must then this phone is truly recommended... The HD25-1 are my favourite headphones for travelling and portable applications. They offer good dynamic sound and are small and sturdy. The K271 is more of a studio headphone. Larger and more comfortable."

As Dr. Meier pointed out the 271's are large and comfortable. In addition, I think their neutral sound and high detail would be an asset to studio work. Quote:

Originally Posted by visara But then, from the Head-fi archives: "These seem to be quite demanding phones and I can't imagine anybody using them on portables or unamped and actually liking the results." - "The K271s are a powerful, tight, neutral, detailed headphone with incredibly deep bass and beautiful, soaring highs. The catch is they sound like crap unless you feed them through a really mean amp"

You're quoting Geek there arent you? I agree completely with his description of their sound, but I think he is exaggerating the need of an amp [as does most of head-fi]. They don't sound like crap without an amp... they sound quite good out of my mp3 player and out of my SB Live. But on my home setup with my PIMETA they really shine. So you will not need an amp, but will get a noticable improvement from one. Quote:

Originally Posted by visara Also, many many comments on them lacking bass.

The AKG K271 Studio's bass goes very deep and there is enough of it there for me. Some people need overdone thumping unrealistic bass though, and these cans are not for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by visara Some people seem to prefer AKG K240S over the 271.

Some people like open headphones as opposed to closed headphones. At the Waterloo meet out of 6-7 people only one preferred my AKG K240 Studio. That said, I do own both and do use the 240's when I want something a bit lighter on my head, or when listening to music with a lot of guitar or male vocals. Its nice to be able to listen with someone else as well [my amp has two outputs]. Quote:

Originally Posted by visara On the other hand: "I dont think that they really need a badass amp to sound good. In fact they are a fairly easy to drive phones. I run mine out of a reciever, while obviously I could benifit from an amp, they still sound great."

It depends on the reciever, but this is basically my view on them as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by visara Ouch ouch my head hurts. People shouldn't disagree. Hate having to do this decision without being able to have a listen to the phones...

I know what you mean... I went completely insane before making my decision as well.

 

[saint.panda]

Just try to buy a used pair of headphones and if you decide not to keep them, the loss of money won't be too great this way.
Ebay, here, maybe Audiogon

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda Just try to buy a used pair of headphones and if you decide not to keep them, the loss of money won't be too great this way. Ebay, here, maybe Audiogon

Good advice... I wish I had done that with my AKG K271 Studio's... I would have saved myself $100 CDN easy

 

[kiwirugby]

I hope this doesn't add to the confusion here, but I recently got back from a U.S. (LAX) to London trip (and back) for which I expressly bought AKG 271s based on my assessments of the many reviews here on clsoed cans (and inspite of what commando's review said!).

My set up was the following for my trip: Sony D-EJ2000 --> Pivot Zu mini-mini (custom) --> Xin SuperDual --> AKG 271 (with Zu Mobius cable). I listened to classical primarily and some jazz.

So how did it work on a Boeing 777?

First, I looked a damn sight better than all those Boses!!! There are so many of those around...I need a Head-Fi busness card to hand out!

The big challenge was isolation. I would say that I could hear the music well, but in quiet passages, forget it. I really had to give more volume. I think for me this would be about a 6 or 7 not a 4.5 as commando rates it.

I also would say, that I agree with philodox's characterization of the AKG 271s (as I believe I said in a post prior to leaving) than commando's. I think the highs and lows are just fine, and for me the soundstage is better than anyone else has described. I find the placement of instruments to be very easy to distinguish, and that there is "room" to hear breadth and depth in a given performance. I really don't find the highs to be that veiled, with cymbals and high frequencies sounding just as they should and well-balanced.

The other cans I own (AKG 501; DT 880; HD 590) are all open so the isolation issue is moot. But I do think that the AKGs hold their own in so many respects with the 501s and 880s which are pretty damn fine in musical reproduction, IMVHMO.

I had the option of sending the headphones and cable back (with Todd's 30-day-return policy and Zu's 60 days), but as I listen to them now, they are not going anywhere.

All this being said, one of the most important things about commando's review is that he compared closed phones and this is where its sterngths lie. I'm just not sure that my easr can discrimnate as well as his!

 

[philodox]

Glad you ended up liking them on your trip kiwirugby

I think that the K501's will probably be my next purchase headphone-wise... but that wont be for quite a while as I am happy with my K271's and K240's for now... and I have a house to buy

 

[kiwirugby]

Good luck on the house, Philodox! And, make sure you have a dedicated room for all your listening gear!

I think you'll really like the 501s when you get them Two things: they will take a long time to break in (that's when the shy bass comes out of hiding!); and they will need some sort of amp (I use either the Xin SuerDual, a Grado RA1, or and JMT-built PIMETA). You will be absoluetly blown away by the soundstage and tone these can produce.

I'll be interested to hear what you think...in about 3-4 years time?????

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwirugby I'll be interested to hear what you think...in about 3-4 years time?????

hehe... hopefully not THAT long... but who knows

 

[sc53]

I'll add some recent impressions on a couple of the phones you're considering if you're still looking for a nudge. First, the sound I prefer: my favorite phones are Senn 650's and I have tube amps and preamps in my home systems. So I tend to go for warm, rounded, detailed but never harsh or bright. I had the Senn 280-Pros for a year or more and found in the end, compared to the phones I liked, they were TOO crisp on the highs and way too light in the bass. I sold them. This past month I've been listening extensively to AKG 271 Studios, Beyer 880's and 250-80's, and AKG 501's. I actually liked all these phones, but sent the 271 Studios back to Todd because the fit was terrible for me. I am female and I guess have a small head and ears, at least compared to the Austrians who make the AKG's. The 271's just slid down the sides of my head and did not provide good isolation from outside noise at all. However, after 10 solid days of 24/7 burn-in, they sounded marvelous, lots of snap and strike on drums, good bass, well balanced highs and mids. Very nice phones which I would have kept but for the poor fit and, as a result, poor isolation. I got the Beyer 250-80's in exchange and I LOVE these phones! I think they would do exactly what you say you're looking for. They sound good even with minimal break-in, good bass, highs balanced with the mids and bass in a natural way (for me), excellent isolation, excellent fit (for me with apparently small head and ears). The cups are long and narrow so may not fit all ears equally well. The Beyer 880's and AKG 501's are really for very refined listening, I find them on the ethereal side (which I happen to like, esp for the jazz recordings I spend a lot of time with). I would call them speciality phones rather than all-around phones. I would call the 250-80's excellent all-around, general purpose headphones. I do not hear the criticisms others have made of them, I think they have tons of clearly defined, tight and focused bass, and the highs are not shrill or overwhelming as I've read others comment. The 250-80's do not require an amp. But I think all phones sound better with one! Just my bias, I guess.

 

[visara]

Okay, thanks a lot for all the input!

I had an interesting chat with my piano teacher the other day - he happens to have a pair of HD 600s and drives them without an amp. Now, he agreed that driving them straight from soundcard is a bad idea - he has a mixer in between - but thinks that the sound is perfectly adequate when driven from a receiver's phone-output. I showed him this thread, and we discussed this explanation Eagle Driver gave:

Quote:

As for plugging in headphones directly into a receiver's/integrated amp's headphone jack, be advised that you will not get optimal sound quality from that jack, no matter which headphone that you'll be plugging into it. Most such jacks, including those in most Yamaha receivers, have a high enough output impedance (over 100 Ohms) that will muddy and distort the sound coming out of those jacks, even at moderate volume levels. But most modern headphones (HD580 and HD600 included) sound best at a near-zero-Ohm output inpedance.

I turned out, neither of us actually got the point in this - he disagreed, and I couldn't say I really understood it in the first place. So, Eagle Driver, could you elucidate this paragraph a bit? And, when you say that the sound is muddled and distorted driven straight from a receiver, how large an effect do you mean? Is it a subtle degeneration, mainly of interest for hifists, or a significant factor even an amateur headphoneist should take into account?

I'm asking this, because it might be that I'm also getting a small mixer in the near future, so I wouldn't be driving my headphones straight from the soundcard after all. However, I would be driving them straight from my Yamaha stereo-receiver. Hence I would be interested whether the following comments apply only to cases where the phones are driven straight from soundcard, or also when driven straight from a receiver:
Quote:

Originally Posted by 00940 Regarding the HD580. From a soundcard, the downside are a serious decrease in the slam and control of the bass, a sound getting a bit blurry and making difficult to pick details. It is not "bad" in absolute terms and can be enjoyable for long relaxed sessions but it is an highly unaccurate sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda "Lazy" is the perfect word to describe the HD 580/600 without a dedicated hzeadphone amp. Bass response is slow,undefined, very little impact.

If getting the mixer between my soundcard and headphones would remove the biggest obstacle against getting a pair of HD 600s, I would again be seriously considering them without getting a dedicated headphone amp.

If not, I'd still consider them, but I would also purchase a headphone amp.

Look what you turned me into. Now I'm considering an amp.

Now, regarding a headphone amp, what would be my best bet for a sub 100$ amp? A JMT build MINT? Or if I'm getting an amp anyway, should I just go straight for a JMT build PIMETA? (I know there is a dedicated forum, but I'll just attach these few questions to this thread if you dont mind.)

There are a few amps at ebay as well, namely:
- New Cmoy Headphone Amplifier Headphones Amp
US $9.99 , 2 days 6 hours (http://snipurl.com/96jy)
- Headroom Airhead Portable Headphone Amp
US $27.79 , 4 days 2 hours (http://snipurl.com/96jw)
Would these seem worth bidding to you?

Also, this conversation with the aforementioned teacher made me forget about getting 25-1. He was strongly of the opinion that its bass is too strong for monitoring purposes, a view apparently shared by many of his music-technologically skewed acquaintances. I personally don't have an opinion on this obviously, and I'm sure they are good phones, but I can't risk agreeing with them here.

So, I'm now still considering:
Sennheiser HD 600
Audio-Technica ATH-A900
AKG K 270 Studio
Beyerdynamic 250-80

If I end up getting an amp, it will no doubt be HD 600. If not, I guess I'll just have to throw a coin (unless I get one of them from ebay)...

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by visara I turned out, neither of us actually got the point in this - he disagreed, and I couldn't say I really understood it in the first place. So, Eagle Driver, could you elucidate this paragraph a bit? And, when you say that the sound is muddled and distorted driven straight from a receiver, how large an effect do you mean? Is it a subtle degeneration, mainly of interest for hifists, or a significant factor even an amateur headphoneist should take into account?

It is significant. The bass becomes very bloated, muddy and undefined when used directly out of a receiver's headphone jack, unless you turn the bass control all the way to minimum. In fact, I had to turn down the bass control all the way to its weakest setting just for the sound to be anywhere close to balanced. Remember, the headphone out in receivers are typically (though not always) dropped directly from the receivers' loudspeaker amp and filtered by a series of cheap, often low-quality resistors.

 

[visara]

Ok. Is a bare-bones Cmoy enough to eradicate this problem? Also, is a cheap Cmoy enough to drive a HD 600/580 from soundcard output?

 

[nierika]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sc53 I would call the 250-80's excellent all-around, general purpose headphones. I do not hear the criticisms others have made of them, I think they have tons of clearly defined, tight and focused bass, and the highs are not shrill or overwhelming as I've read others comment. The 250-80's do not require an amp. But I think all phones sound better with one! Just my bias, I guess.

I've never heard anyone say DT250-80s have shrill or overwhelming highs!