[lini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murdoch Other way 'round. The DT250-80 is the more easily driven phone.

Yup, but the 250/80 sounds significantly different (read: worse to my ears).

Greetings from Hannover!

Manfred / lini

 

[philodox]

I think that I will once again have to repectfully disagree with Commando. He obviously does not like the AKG K271 Studio and some of the scores in his 'Monster Cans Review' are suspect.

Comfort 7/10, Isolation 4.5/10. Give me a break.

In all of the headphone comparisons with different songs he mentions a lack of bass and vieled rolled off highs. This is incorrect. The AKG K271 Studio has an emphasized midrange. Because he is listening to other cans that have increased treble [CD3K's] or bass [A900's] he finds the AKG's lacking in these departments.

He listens to dance music and in this respect I can understand why he does not like the AKG's. But saying that they are a bad choice for 'studio and home' as the thread starter asked just because he does not like them is silly.

 

[visara]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda I don't know where you got that info on the HD 25 but that store was probably referring to the HD 25 Sp because the HD 25 definately does not fit that description. The HD 25 is a very balanced headphone (in my opinion).

That was just some bloke who answered a 'headphones suggestions' query at the electronic musicians' forum at K-v-R. Might be a totally ill-informed opinion. Still, any negative feedback strikes a doubt in my mind. Might be he got those two models mixed up.

Quote:

The A900 can be ordered from www.audiocubes.com They ship worldwide

I'm sure they do, but by ordering anything this expensive from the US I would risk having to pay VAT for them, which would consequently raise their price beyond reasonable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00940 I think a little search would show you that many people here have heard the ultrasone HFI-650 and many among them have posted favorable reviews.

Sorry, I should've done my homework better before posting. Okay, so I ran a search, and yes, many are pleased, but the few displeased comments worry me:

Halcyon: "for me personally HFI-650 is a no-no for all-day monitoring: they are too bright, too aggressive and revealing. At least on the amps I've tried (PreHead, porta corda 2, friend's studio mixing consoles). I get a "burning sensation" or "tired ears" feel pretty quickly with HFI-650... with my "tired ears" and "burning sensation" I actually mean both: the physical discomfort of the headphone (even if not playing) AND the listening fatigue caused by phones that have an amplitude response that just makes me want to stop listen to them." I noticed other comments on them being too bright or discomfortable as well. How would you respond to these? Do you use them for studio work yourself, or for "casual" listening? If the latter, would you still maintain that they would serve well as phones to do mixing/mastering work on?

Is there any kind of consensus regarding the difference in sound quality between the Beyer 250-250 and 250-80? That is if I picked one of these for unamped usage, should I take the -80 ohm or the -250 ohm model? Is it generally accepted that -80 is easier to drive but -250 sounds better? If so, could I still drive -250 well enough from my soundcard direct?

Oh, and if someone feels it makes a difference, I listen to a lot of experimental electronic music. IDM, microhouse, electroacoustic, experimental ambient, that kind of stuff (the material I produce falls mostly into this category as well). The phones should be well-rounded, tho, as I listen to other things as well, like for example different forms of electronic dance music (d'n'b, techno, electro...), classical, post-rock/indie-rockish stuff, and the occasional pop/rock album.

Oh, and is Meier-Audio the cheapest place to get those HFI-650s? I couldn't find any other place that sold them, do you know any?

 

[commando]

Quote:

Originally Posted by visara Commando, I believe you drove all the phones from a headphone amp in your review? Do you think the results would translate to a non-amped situation? You recommended HD280, but I've heard some negative comments on them, for example: "Stay away from HD280 Pro as far as possible! Very poor design quality, mine headband cracked multiple times". Someone at these boards just called Sennheiser's HD 2xx series a joke. Also, Thomann lists them as DJ-headphones, usually a big no for mixing!

There's a whole thread on the 280s that was around not long ago, best have a read of that.

 

[saint.panda]

The Ultrasones turn up from time to time on ebay germany and considering that you live in Finland, shipping shouldn't be a major issue. However, for non-ebay ordering I highly recommend meier-audio. The price for the Ultrasones on meier-audio is pretty good as well.

The consensus is that the 250-250 sounds better but as you already know it needs an amp.

I once ordered something from Audiocubes and they were very smart with bypassing German VAT. However, the thing I orderd only costed 30$ anyway.

Regarding the quote about the Ultrasones having a very exciting yet tiring highend: I absolutely agree. Further, comfort ain't too high with the Ultrasones. You sweat a lot because the headphones is closed, the cups are made of pleather (fake leather) and the circumaural cups are failry small. I used to own the HFI-700 which in principle is the HFI-650 with more bass

To be honest, I think for mixing ambient music (at least the sort of ambient music I listen to), you really need a pair of headphones that has at least some sort of soundstage. Thus the HD 25-1 might not be your first choice then.

 

[BluesDaddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by visara Thanks for all the replies. HD 25-1 seems to be always suggested, when monitoring headphones are asked for. Is the HD 25-1 = HD 25? They look a bit uncomfortable, as they don't seem to cover the ear. Is this a false impression? From an electronic music production site I read: "HD25 is not good for mixing at all (I got boomy/muddy mixes because of the unnatural low/mid freq response)", so I'm not that tempted to pick them up...

Yes, they are the same. My cans were listed as HD25s on the website and say HD25-1 on the headphone itself. They are a tad tight right out the box, which is cureable by stretching over books or something similar. They are NOT uncomfortable over the ear. Further, I'm not sure who wrote that about "boomy", but they are not "boomy" at all and Headroom says of them Quote:

Tight lows, good clean damped sound in bass; even mids, well present and punchy; and fairly smooth and well extended highs make the HD25 in our top three in terms of sound quality...

I simply don't get where anyone would ever say the HD25s are "unnatural" in their low and mid frequency response.

 

[visara]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda The consensus is that the 250-250 sounds better but as you already know it needs an amp.

Ok, does the DT 250-80 still sound good enough to be able to compete with the other models mentioned in this thread?

Quote:

I once ordered something from Audiocubes and they were very smart with bypassing German VAT. However, the thing I orderd only costed 30$ anyway.

Do they do gift wrapping or stuff like that? I've ordered a minidisc-recorder from Singapore without paying VAT, so I know it's possible. Notice, however, that a $30 item is probably under the vat-limit anyway. At least here in Finland, if the VAT would be less than 10EUR, it's not collected at all. So I can order a parcel that costs up to (roughly) 45$ without any fear of VAT.

If I was able to get the A900s without paying VAT, they'd still cost close to 180 EUR, that is, as much as a pair of HD600s. Would they really be worth it? After searching these forums for A900, I got the impression that they are not very neutral or detailed - is this true? If so, they wouldn't be a very suitable pair of cans for mixing jobs...

So, how often do the HFI-650s turn up at the german ebay? I don't think I have the patience to wait for months. Actually, there's a pair up right now, but they are going for a higher price than what Meier-Audio asks for them... Saint.panda, what's your relationship with the Ultrasones - have you only listened to the HFI-700 model? Do you think their high end is tiring to the extent that it renders them unusable for extended listening?

Phew this is difficult!

I'm still considering the following:

Audio-Technica ATH-A900 (170)
Ultrasone HFI-650 trackmaster (150)
AKG K 271 Studio (144)
Beyerdynamic DT 250-80 (140)
(BEYERDYNAMIC DT 990 PRO (139))
Sennheiser HD 25-1 (130)
(SENNHEISER HD 580 II PRECISION (128.5))
AKG K 240 Studio (89)

At this point at the latest I should make the final decision by listening to different phones myself, I know. However, there aren't any decent / well stocked HIFI-stores at where I live, so there's no place where I could hear them for myself. Besides, these will be my first decent headphones, so that I don't think I even could listen to them with an analytical ear...

I'm leaning towards a decision between HD 25-1, HFI-650, AKG K 271s and DT 250-80. The Ultrasones intrigue me, but I'm very worried about them causing too much fatique to be bearable for extended sessions

. Is it really that bad? I know very little about the DT 250-80, so I'm pretty ambivalent towards them. HD25-1s look pretty nice, yes. However, HeadRoom recommends them as good cans for a "DJ, drummer, or outdoor activist", which seem to be pretty much in direct opposition with what I'll be doing with them. The 271S-model has got quite a few recommendations here and elsewhere, but, as it seems, opposition also...

Still, I'm preplexed with the stress head-fi dwellers lay on headphone amps. In my experience no-one in the real world has a headphone amp (

), yet people use and enjoy cans like HD600. Even HeadRoom, which is surely made of headphone-enthustiastics, thinks that HD-580 doesn't necessitate a headphone amp, and that it "can’t be beat for quality listening around the home and office". I guess I'm just having troubles forgetting the HD580's...

Right now I'm just looking for a final push to some direction.

Oh, and only a small portion of the stuff I do is anywhere near ambient, so that I'm not paying too much attention to any requirements this specific genre would place for the headphones... Most of it is relatively song-y IDM with beats, leads, basslines, pads etcetera...

 

[saint.panda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by visara Do they do gift wrapping or stuff like that? I've ordered a minidisc-recorder from Singapore without paying VAT, so I know it's possible. Notice, however, that a $30 item is probably under the vat-limit anyway. At least here in Finland, if the VAT would be less than 10EUR, it's not collected at all. So I can order a parcel that costs up to (roughly) 45$ without any fear of VAT.

I can't remember to well but I think they just declared it as a gift and put a slightly lower price on the customs sheet. I'm not sure though.

Quote:

So, how often do the HFI-650s turn up at the german ebay? I don't think I have the patience to wait for months. Actually, there's a pair up right now, but they are going for a higher price than what Meier-Audio asks for them... Saint.panda, what's your relationship with the Ultrasones - have you only listened to the HFI-700 model? Do you think their high end is tiring to the extent that it renders them unusable for extended listening?

I haven't checked for a while but there used to be a vendor who put them up on ebay frequently.
I used to own the Ultrasone 700 for around 1-2 months and sold them because they were too tiring to my ears. Whether these headphones can lead you to musical nirvana or not is one issue but these headphones definately are not what I would call neutral.

Quote:

At this point at the latest I should make the final decision by listening to different phones myself, I know.

Very good idea

Quote:

I'm leaning towards a decision between HD 25-1, HFI-650, AKG K 271s and DT 250-80. The Ultrasones intrigue me, but I'm very worried about them causing too much fatique to be bearable for extended sessions . Is it really that bad? I know very little about the DT 250-80, so I'm pretty ambivalent towards them. HD25-1s look pretty nice, yes. However, HeadRoom recommends them as good cans for a "DJ, drummer, or outdoor activist", which seem to be pretty much in direct opposition with what I'll be doing with them. The 271S-model has got quite a few recommendations here and elsewhere, but, as it seems, opposition also...

Don't listen to Headroom when it comes to the HD 25-1. It seems they don't like that headphone too much.
Also, your worries about the Ultrasones are justified.

Quote:

Still, I'm preplexed with the stress head-fi dwellers lay on headphone amps. In my experience no-one in the real world has a headphone amp ( ), yet people use and enjoy cans like HD600. Even HeadRoom, which is surely made of headphone-enthustiastics, thinks that HD-580 doesn't necessitate a headphone amp, and that it "can’t be beat for quality listening around the home and office". I guess I'm just having troubles forgetting the HD580's...

Again, don't listen to Headroom here either. Well, in fact you can listen to the HD 580 unamped but you'll have a rather slow bass, recessed midrange and a sloppy highend. Unamped it still sounds a lot better than many 50$ headphones (that's probably what Headroom is trying to say as well) but just not as good as it could.

The fact that no-one in the world owns a headphone amp doesn't mean they're doing the right thing. Further, I haven't seen too many people with >100$ anyway. And if they do, it's usually the Sony V700.

Quote:

Right now I'm just looking for a final push to some direction. Oh, and only a small portion of the stuff I do is anywhere near ambient, so that I'm not paying too much attention to any requirements this specific genre would place for the headphones... Most of it is relatively song-y IDM with beats, leads, basslines, pads etcetera...

Only your ears can push you into the right direction. My personal recommendation would be the HD 25-1 but that's because I like that headphone (...who would have thought... ) and find it neutral. Imo it is not bass-heavy but one of the best bass-reproducing headphones I've heard in the sub-200$ class. You'll able to tell the bassline from all the other instruments and voicings without problem. And if you don't like the HD 25-1 too much, the resale value is pretty good.

However, again, only your ears can tell you what's good

 

[commando]

visara, take a look at my closed can review, linked from my sig, if you haven't already. A900 compare well with the much aclaimed CD3K, and I prefer the A900s over all. I don't like 271s at all, except maybe for rock, and even then the A900 could be good if you EQ it I think.

The A900/HD600 call is made by whether you want open or closed. If you want open i'd def say get the HD600. Or 595.

I had 250-250s briefly, they lacked any bass at all even after burn in, so I think they may have be faulty. Apart from that they sounded good, like a smoothed 280, detailed, but not harsh. That's a memory from a while back though, don't put too much weight in it.

audiocubes puts a lower price on the package they're shipping, so you don't pay tax. The did it without asking for my order, but you should ask to make sure.

 

[philodox]

Did you miss my last post or are you just ignoring it commando?
Quote:

Originally Posted by visara Right now I'm just looking for a final push to some direction.

Well here is another nudge anyways

Despite commando's assertion that the AKG K271 Studio is only good for rock... Quote:

Originally Posted by visara ...most of it is relatively song-y IDM with beats, leads, basslines, pads etcetera...

...this is exactly the type of music that I think these headphones excel at.

 

[commando]

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox Did you miss my last post or are you just ignoring it commando?

Didn't see it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox I think that I will once again have to repectfully disagree with Commando. He obviously does not like the AKG K271 Studio and some of the scores in his 'Monster Cans Review' are suspect. Comfort 7/10, Isolation 4.5/10. Give me a break. In all of the headphone comparisons with different songs he mentions a lack of bass and vieled rolled off highs. This is incorrect. The AKG K271 Studio has an emphasized midrange. Because he is listening to other cans that have increased treble [CD3K's] or bass [A900's] he finds the AKG's lacking in these departments. He listens to dance music and in this respect I can understand why he does not like the AKG's. But saying that they are a bad choice for 'studio and home' as the thread starter asked just because he does not like them is silly.

Couple of things:
- Everyone hears differently. There's no need to get snarky at someone because their opinion is differnet to yours.
- Remember I had a bunch of cans there, and all the numbers are relative. Comfort isn't as good as A900/CD3k, and 4.5 for isolation only makes sense if you compare it to the other numbers I gave.
- I used a wide range of music in those tests.

What cans are you comparing the 271s with philodox?

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by commando Didn't see it.

heh, figured as much... sorry I'm in a bit of a pissy mood today

Quote:

Originally Posted by commando - Everyone hears differently. There's no need to get snarky at someone because their opinion is differnet to yours.

agreed

Quote:

Originally Posted by commando - Remember I had a bunch of cans there, and all the numbers are relative. Comfort isn't as good as A900/CD3k, and 4.5 for isolation only makes sense if you compare it to the other numbers I gave.

I just thought the comfort number seemed strange as you give the AT's a 9 when you 'prefer a full headband to the 3D wings' and give the AKG's a 7 because they 'get a little warm after a while'. I'm not contesting that the CD3K's are more comfy, but the above info and the fact that you have to wait until the 280's stop clamping on your head for them to be comfortable [and they beat the AKG's by 1/2 a point] makes me wonder about the scores.

As for the isolation. I do not understand this ranking at all. You compare 4 headphones and rate one at 6, one at 5 and one at 4.5. What would be a 10? I also find it strange because I can sit next to someone on the bus and play music very loud and they have no idea what I am listening to and I hear next to no bus noise. If that ranks a 4.5 in isolation I guess that is all you need. Quote:

Originally Posted by commando - I used a wide range of music in those tests.

Thats not what I was really getting at with that comment, but yes I suppose you did. Quote:

Originally Posted by commando What cans are you comparing the 271s with philodox?

Unfortunately I have not heard the CD3K's or the A900's... I hope to remedy that at the next Toronto meet. I may have heard the Senn's, but I'm not completely sure. Other headphones that I have listened to include Sony MDR-7506/7509 [and some other crappier Sony's], ATH-W2002, Grado RS-1/SR-225, Sennheiser 580/570, some Koss headphones and a Stax 404. Out of those only the Stax seemed to have more detail than the AKG K271 Studio... which is why your many comments on their lack of detail confuses me.

I know that I probably came off as rather snipey in my earlier post [and maybe in this one too

] but I think you missed the main thrust of what I was getting at. For each headphone you reviewed in your 'monster closed cans review' you seemed to point out their strong points except for the AKG K271 Studio where you pointed out its weak points.

As an example:
CD3K: You describe them as having emphasized treble.
A900: You describe them as having emphasized bass.
K271: One would think that you would say 'emphasized midrange'. But instead you mention them as being lacking in bass and vieled [or lacking in treble].

I have not heard any of the other headphones in your review and as such I am going on what you are saying and how you are saying it. Its not something that I can definatively point my finger to, but after reading your review and then re-reading it I definately notice the different approach that you took with all of the other headphones.

Anyways I didnt mean for this to turn into a big argument. Believe it or not I enjoyed your review. The information in it is good... just presented with a strong bias. [which in your defense, you do give a hint to at the start]

 

[commando]

Most of your questions are related to the way you interpret what I said, which is reasonable, English and myself especially can be ambiguous at times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox just thought the comfort number seemed strange as you give the AT's a 9 when you 'prefer a full headband to the 3D wings' and give the AKG's a 7 because they 'get a little warm after a while'. I'm not contesting that the CD3K's are more comfy, but the above info and the fact that you have to wait until the 280's stop clamping on your head for them to be comfortable [and they beat the AKG's by 1/2 a point] makes me wonder about the scores.

I prefer a full headband, that's why the ATs didn't get 10. Even with the 3D wings I still find them very comfortable - I forget i'm wearing them. Plus i'm used to them now, so they don't bother me at all - not that they ever did really.

I didn't "give the AKG's a 7 because they get a little warm after a while", I gave them a 7 beacuse that's what I think, and I made a comment that the get a little warm after a while. Their pads are harder and less deep, and I just don't like the feel as much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox As for the isolation. I do not understand this ranking at all. You compare 4 headphones and rate one at 6, one at 5 and one at 4.5. What would be a 10? I also find it strange because I can sit next to someone on the bus and play music very loud and they have no idea what I am listening to and I hear next to no bus noise. If that ranks a 4.5 in isolation I guess that is all you need.

10 would be something that doesn't let any external noise in. I'm not really concerned with stopping noises getting out - the volume of the music is very low compared with the volume of external noises (eg traffic noise), so to me isolation from outside sounds is a better measure of isolation than leakage. To get 10 i'd have to be able to put them on in a noisy-ish area and not be able to hear anything - which isn't going to happen I think, except maybe with huge cans and active noise cancellation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox For each headphone you reviewed in your 'monster closed cans review' you seemed to point out their strong points except for the AKG K271 Studio where you pointed out its weak points. As an example: CD3K: You describe them as having emphasized treble. A900: You describe them as having emphasized bass. K271: One would think that you would say 'emphasized midrange'. But instead you mention them as being lacking in bass and vieled [or lacking in treble].

I said what I meant to say - I didn't think they had an emphasized midrange, I think they have rolled off highs, not as much bass as the other cans, and they are veiled.

To my ears the 271s do nothing overly well, compared with the other cans in the review. I recommended them for rock only because to my ears I prefer the highs of rock tamed a little.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox Anyways I didnt mean for this to turn into a big argument. Believe it or not I enjoyed your review. The information in it is good... just presented with a strong bias. [which in your defense, you do give a hint to at the start]

This isn't an argument - i'm just trying to clarify what I meant in my review. I tried not to be biased during my review, but like you said I did mention my bias at the start. You're welcome to disagree, so long as you understand what I meant to start with

Let me clarify my position on the 271s slightly - they're not bad cans, they're just not as good as other cans I have. They'd still kick the ass of most consumer level cans, like the MDR-v700 DJs I used to have.

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by commando Most of your questions are related to the way you interpret what I said.

Exactly... like I said, it was a very good review overall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by commando I didn't "give the AKG's a 7 because they get a little warm after a while", I gave them a 7 beacuse that's what I think, and I made a comment that the get a little warm after a while. Their pads are harder and less deep, and I just don't like the feel as much.

That makes more sense now. I still find them very comfortable myself, but I understand your point of view. This has been brought up before by others, but I think that the 271's are very head-size dependant with their fit. Quote:

Originally Posted by commando 10 would be something that doesn't let any external noise in. I'm not really concerned with stopping noises getting out - the volume of the music is very low compared with the volume of external noises (eg traffic noise), so to me isolation from outside sounds is a better measure of isolation than leakage. To get 10 i'd have to be able to put them on in a noisy-ish area and not be able to hear anything - which isn't going to happen I think, except maybe with huge cans and active noise cancellation.

I understand your point here, but I think that how much sound they keep in should also be considered. This is a huge factor for me and the reason that I got closed headphones in the first place. I prefer to not have everyone on the bus glaring at me constantly [as they did with my brief stint with the HD570].

Quote:

Originally Posted by commando I said what I meant to say - I didn't think they had an emphasized midrange, I think they have rolled off highs, not as much bass as the other cans, and they are veiled.

I dont see why these two statements are so different. The only difference that I can see is that one is pointing out the strengths and the other is pointing out the weaknesses. When you point out the weaknesses the strengths are still there and vice versa. Quote:

Originally Posted by commando Let me clarify my position on the 271s slightly - they're not bad cans, they're just not as good as other cans I have. They'd still kick the ass of most consumer level cans, like the MDR-v700 DJs I used to have.

Fair enough.

Well, hopefully in October at the Toronto mini-meet [that isnt looking so mini any more] I will be able to hear the A900's and the CD3K's and give my own opinions on the subject. Who knows, they might even match yours.

 

[BluesDaddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda Only your ears can push you into the right direction. My personal recommendation would be the HD 25-1 but that's because I like that headphone (...who would have thought... ) and find it neutral. Imo it is not bass-heavy but one of the best bass-reproducing headphones I've heard in the sub-200$ class. You'll able to tell the bassline from all the other instruments and voicings without problem. And if you don't like the HD 25-1 too much, the resale value is pretty good.

I agree with this and am liking my 25s more and more. I very seriously considered the A900s, but was ultimately turned off by the fact that A-T apparently has some kind of exclusive distribution deal with audiocubes which keeps the price inflated. Plus, I really wanted a "neutral" or "accurate" headphone. I want what's on the source material to come through colored as little as possible by the final transducer. I think the HD25s do that admirably for a sub $150 set of headphones.