[Stoney]

 
The HD800 does indeed produce a larger soundstage, with better instrument 3D illusion and space between the instruments.  And, I like the distant perspective, given that most headphones force sound down your throat.  But that doesn't mean the frequency response is entirely enjoyable--I still can't take the V-shaped frequency response, especially for vocals (lower modrange chestiness, midrange dip, upper midrange brightness).  Music heavy in lower-mid treble drives me nuts; clearly not natural. 
 
The HD650 is relatively distant in most respects compared to other makes, though not Senn's own 600 or 800.  However, the lower-midrange through midrange is a bit emphasized and that makes some instruments and voices seem close up, closed in, even a bit claustrophobic as some have said.  Overall, though, I prefer this (despite the loss of detail and imaging) over the disembodied vocals of the HD800 from the point of view of a music lover.  I can enjoy relaxing into the musical experience more. Someday I will upgrade to a model that has the best of both.  (Crosses fingers.)   
 
When I see frequency response graphs of the HD650, I still don't have an answer whether that is a recent chart (2009-ish+) or not (2007 or earlier) from the older, darker, slower, veiled version.  I found the two to sound quite different (comparing my gently used oldies to others' used but newer production, not to mention to my subsequent, brand-new current production purchase).  

 

[Shahrose]

I think one of the main areas the HD800 beats the HD650 is in vocal representation. They sound like they're right there floating in front of you. What kind of setup did you listen to the 800s in Stoney?

 

[Satellite_6]

 
Quote:

That's a great description which IS accurate in my view as well. We may have been talking with two different references in mind. I and others were referencing other headphones for the comparison, while Satelite may have been referencing real life sound.
 
I do agree with the HD600/HD650 being more accurate to real life sound, which is why I own one. Natural live sound is, by nature, slightly rolled off. High frequencies get cut off by all kinds of things. Trees, pillars, speaker stands, guitar stands, stage-top monitors, even the resistance of the air itself breaks down high frequencies. There are a lot of headphones with a following on this forum that are unnaturally bright.

I am describing what my 650s sound like compared to what I perceive as a flat response. To me the treble isn't rolled off at all, but flat at the quitest and loud at the peaks. I guess if you compared the bass alone with the all of the highs the bass might be louder overall, but it seems most people say that the 650s are really dark, this doesn't seem true to me at all, they seem fairly balanced to me (in a bad way. . . I wish they were flatter).
 
If you've only tried the 650s for a short time maybe they sounded dark because your ears were not used to them? I've been listening to them for months and they eventually became more balanced and less dark.

 

[frususx]

HD650 is my answer

 

[pp312]

Quote:

HD650 is my answer

You shouldn't be so voluble. 

 

[gerbi]

The first thing you need to buy is a new keyboard. Your vowel keys don't seem to be working.

Boy, what a giggle!

 

[Stoney]

 
 
Quote:

I think one of the main areas the HD800 beats the HD650 is in vocal representation. They sound like they're right there floating in front of you. What kind of setup did you listen to the 800s in Stoney?

 
My listening was on at least 3 HD800s, and about 5 amps and sources of good quality but I don't know all of them.  This was at the February Headphone meet in Emeryville, San Francisco Bay Area.  Some were balanced, some not. Several types of cables.  Tubes and SS.  One of the less-unforgiving trebles came from a Beta 22.  Also listened to a Zana Deux and rather dark reel-to-reel.  
 
Tried moving the phones from system to system.  I also listened to the same setups with my own HD650s, and with a newer production HD650 (ended up buying and liking the new production).  
 
Treble, transients, and upper frequencies of vocals (fricatives, plosives, whatever the right terms are) were the easiest to use to tell it does not sound natural, in fact was quite far from "the absolute sound."   After all, I was surrounded by talking heads.  Percussion, string plucks, violins, and transients were emphasized.  Sibilance was over emphasized.  
 
I'd like to believe the various combinations of 3 HD800s x 4 cables x 5 amps/souces was perhaps not characteristic of HD800 production as a whole.  On the other hand, I've read so many others with similar comments that I know at least a large minority are hearing the same things I do.  

 

[Shahrose]

Quote:

My listening was on at least 3 HD800s, and about 5 amps and sources of good quality but I don't know all of them.  This was at the February Headphone meet in Emeryville, San Francisco Bay Area.  Some were balanced, some not. Several types of cables.  Tubes and SS.  One of the less-unforgiving trebles came from a Beta 22.  Also listened to a Zana Deux and rather dark reel-to-reel.  
 
Tried moving the phones from system to system.  I also listened to the same setups with my own HD650s, and with a newer production HD650 (ended up buying and liking the new production).  
 
Treble, transients, and upper frequencies of vocals (fricatives, plosives, whatever the right terms are) were the easiest to use to tell it does not sound natural, in fact was quite far from "the absolute sound."   After all, I was surrounded by talking heads.  Percussion, string plucks, violins, and transients were emphasized.  Sibilance was over emphasized.  
 
I'd like to believe the various combinations of 3 HD800s x 4 cables x 5 amps/souces was perhaps not characteristic of HD800 production as a whole.  On the other hand, I've read so many others with similar comments that I know at least a large minority are hearing the same things I do.  

 
No, I think what you heard is pretty much what the HD800s sound like (relative to the 650s). It seems there certainly wasn't any lack of quality equipment present.
That being said, I still don't trust meet impressions because long-term exposure changes opinions, preferences and/or allows one to find subtleties missed on short auditions. I remember when I first got the 800s, my benchmark were the 650s. So ofcourse, I thought pretty much anything, including the 800s, sounded bright. After the first day, I was ready to sell the 800s (but luckily didn't). After a month, the 650s ended up in a drawer (later given to my bro).
When you're used to the sound of a particular headphone, you've got to give yourself some time to adapt to a different one.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

 
No, I think what you heard is pretty much what the HD800s sound like (relative to the 650s). It seems there certainly wasn't any lack of quality equipment present.
That being said, I still don't trust meet impressions because long-term exposure changes opinions, preferences and/or allows one to find subtleties missed on short auditions. I remember when I first got the 800s, my benchmark were the 650s. So ofcourse, I thought pretty much anything, including the 800s, sounded bright. After the first day, I was ready to sell the 800s (but luckily didn't). After a month, the 650s ended up in a drawer (later given to my bro).
When you're used to the sound of a particular headphone, you've got to give yourself some time to adapt to a different one.

 
Amen to that.  However, I think Stone's point is not about growing accustomed to the HD800's.  It's more about the HD650's offering a more realistic sound for him, so he has no particular interest in adapting to a less realistic sound signature.  Do I have you right Stone?

 
 

 

[Shahrose]

Quote:

Amen to that.  However, I think Stone's point is not about growing accustomed to the HD800's.  It's more about the HD650's offering a more realistic sound for him, so he has no particular interest in adapting to a less realistic sound signature.  Do I have you right Stone?

 
 

The problem here is, whatever you listen to frequently will start sounding best to you. That's just how our hearing works. We adapt. The HD650s sounded more realistic to me in the beginning too, but it changed after a few weeks.

 

[Aynjell]

Quote:

The problem here is, whatever you listen to frequently will start sounding best to you. That's just how our hearing works. We adapt. The HD650s sounded more realistic to me in the beginning too, but it changed after a few weeks.

So the HD800 isn't even better, it just sounds better after you've listened to it for a while? And you'd listen to it a lot if you spent 1400$ on them.
 
I myself didn't enjoy them at all. I happen to be one of those that prefer the HD650 to the HD600/HD800 sound (which I thought were similar). The HD580 though sounded terrible to my ears, at least what I heard at canjam. I also seem to not be affected by the cash spent placebo. I prefer my SRH840's and ATH-AD700's over my Grado 325i's nowadays... but hey, that's just me. Maybe you are also, but I believe there are people who can genuinely prefer the HD650 and also feel it sounds more real. I think the HD650 is almost all the "real" with just a touch of warmth that you can sink into. Like a brand new simmons mattress.

 

[Shahrose]

Quote:

So the HD800 isn't even better, it just sounds better after you've listened to it for a while? And you'd listen to it a lot if you spent 1400$ on them.
 
I myself didn't enjoy them at all. I happen to be one of those that prefer the HD650 to the HD600/HD800 sound (which I thought were similar). The HD580 though sounded terrible to my ears, at least what I heard at canjam. I also seem to not be affected by the cash spent placebo. I prefer my SRH840's and ATH-AD700's over my Grado 325i's nowadays... but hey, that's just me. Maybe you are also, but I believe there are people who can genuinely prefer the HD650 and also feel it sounds more real. I think the HD650 is almost all the "real" with just a touch of warmth that you can sink into. Like a brand new simmons mattress.

After reading my own message, I was expecting a response like yours. What I meant was, you need to give both headphones equal head-time for a few weeks and then see which one is better. Don't listen to one exclusively. 
 
BTW, your preference of the 650 over 600 is very telling, because it's commonly known that the 600 is the more neutral and accurate of the two, while the 650 is warmed and smoothed to appeal to certain crowds. I can see why you wouldn't like the 800s, which are even brighter and cooler than the 600s.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

After reading my own message, I was expecting a response like yours. What I meant was, you need to give both headphones equal head-time for a few weeks and then see which one is better. Don't listen to one exclusively. 
 
BTW, your preference of the 650 over 600 is very telling, because it's commonly known that the 600 is the more neutral and accurate of the two, while the 650 is warmed and smoothed to appeal to certain crowds. I can see why you wouldn't like the 800s, which are even brighter and cooler than the 600s.

I completely agree with you Shahrose. The HD800s might take some time to become accustomed to and fully understand their brilliance. They are the most balanced headphones I've heard to date...including the T1s and LCD-2s.
 
Their sound stage is incredible and at times almost unbelievable. A few nights ago, I was listening to Jazz at the Pawnshop and had to take them off 8-10 times thinking there were people beside and behind me clanking their drinks. I simply don't get this with the T1s or LCD-2s. Not to say that they don't have incredible sound stage ('cause they do), but not on par in that regard to the HD800s.
 
The HD650s are dark with a mid-bass hump and treble roll off that colours what you're hearing. I too was coming from the HD650s to the HD800s, but after a few weeks the HD650s were sold off (with zero regrets).
 
FWIW, I too preferred the HD600s over the HD650s.

 

[Aynjell]

Quote:

After reading my own message, I was expecting a response like yours. What I meant was, you need to give both headphones equal head-time for a few weeks and then see which one is better. Don't listen to one exclusively. 
 
BTW, your preference of the 650 over 600 is very telling, because it's commonly known that the 600 is the more neutral and accurate of the two, while the 650 is warmed and smoothed to appeal to certain crowds. I can see why you wouldn't like the 800s, which are even brighter and cooler than the 600s.

I like nice cans, but personally the ultra neutral isn't for me. I just can't agree with the HD800 being the 'better' without it having some semblance of warmth to it. I would probably concede to it being the more technically impressive and the more technical to boot, but better? nah I can't ever agree to that. The HD650 are more comfortable to my head, more soothing to my ears, and more relaxing to my mind. They're just so damned creamy and wonderful. I need to hurry up and buy some but that won't happen until mid 2011.
 

 

[Roger Strummer]

Quote:

I completely agree with you Shahrose. The HD800s might take some time to become accustomed to and fully understand their brilliance. They are the most balanced headphones I've heard to date...including the T1s and LCD-2s.
 
Their sound stage is incredible and at times almost unbelievable. A few nights ago, I was listening to Jazz at the Pawnshop and had to take them off 8-10 times thinking there were people beside and behind me clanking their drinks. I simply don't get this with the T1s or LCD-2s. Not to say that they don't have incredible sound stage ('cause they do), but not on par in that regard to the HD800s.
 
The HD650s are dark with a mid-bass hump and treble roll off that colours what you're hearing. I too was coming from the HD650s to the HD800s, but after a few weeks the HD650s were sold off (with zero regrets).
 
FWIW, I too preferred the HD600s over the HD650s.

Very interesting, I agree completely with what you say of the 800. But what about the LCD-2, how similar do you feel them to a 650?