[dallan]

**

 

[Stoney]

I appreciate people's comment and don't feel inclined to defend or elaborate my earlier comments, because it is all a dialog in which we exchange perspectives, not for me a rigid position or conceptual framework.  Some comments are less important to me after having written them and not worth hijacking the thread....   Certainly no intent to target any one person or cause offense.  Didn't you notice the winky emoticon?  (Ducks)
 
I certainly have acknowledged the weaknesses of the HD650 and its departures from neutrality; it is just that the several HD800s I heard all had what to me is a fatal flaw that outweighed all the great stuff they do better than the HD650.  
 
Besides, in a world of upgraditis and materialism, one in which we almost all have become less financially secure in the last few years, I promote the notion of being satisfied with what you already own.  ;^)  Otherwise, I'd sell my 2001 Audi A6 and buy a new S5....
 
If I had more time and money, I'd buy a pair of HD800s and experiment--try cables and invasive mods to see if I could diminish the bright band that bothers me so much.  The rest of the performance is quite enticing. 
 
When it comes to my espousing pursuit of accuracy in evaluating components, I enter dangerous territory because there are so many ways to interpret such a sentence.  And, accuracy has so many dimensions... which to emphasize?  My main interest in saying this was that headphones listeners, and to a slightly lesser exetent speaker system listeners, can wander far from accuracy if they give up the notion entirely.  However, even the most devoted student of live music and rigorously honest observer of colorations (including those of their own "reference" system) will still have favorites based on their own priorities and exposure to equipment.  So I admit, it is always a balance of "what sounds real about it" and "what do I enjoy listening to at length."  
 
I won't bother quoting, but some great comments in the last few pages....

 

[aimlink]

I thought it flawed to use an EQ, until I purged my system of that 'belief'.
 
My HD800 sounds wonderful when EQ'd a little to dial in just a tad more bass.  I much prefer it that way. 

 

[beeman458]

Gotta love that EQ.
 
Don't know why it scares people so as there is no such thing as "natural" other then the here and now.
 
Folks don't realize it but a composer is EQ'g their sound when they choose a violin over a viola or one set of string material over another or one octave over another or one genre of music over another.  I guess writing that one is a natural sound kinda person, is the hep thing to write.
 
???

 

[pp312]

Quote:

When it comes to my espousing pursuit of accuracy in evaluating components, I enter dangerous territory because there are so many ways to interpret such a sentence.  And, accuracy has so many dimensions... which to emphasize?  My main interest in saying this was that headphones listeners, and to a slightly lesser exetent speaker system listeners, can wander far from accuracy if they give up the notion entirely.  However, even the most devoted student of live music and rigorously honest observer of colorations (including those of their own "reference" system) will still have favorites based on their own priorities and exposure to equipment.  So I admit, it is always a balance of "what sounds real about it" and "what do I enjoy listening to at length."  
 
I won't bother quoting, but some great comments in the last few pages....

Good stuff, well reasoned and well written.
 
There will always be a degree of subjectivity, but it should remain a mere degree; we should never forget that the "Fi" part of "Head-Fi" means fidelity--faithfulness to the original. For my money there's a little too much talk here of "fun" headphones, "fun" usually being a euphemism for coloured. Anyone's allowed to listen to any kind of phone they like, of course, but too often these "fun" phones become the standard  recommendation to newbies and the whole concept of fidelity fades. As you suggest, there's always going to be a certain latitude of preference and interpretation, but there has to be a cut-off point too, defined by the sound of live music because we have no other definition. Some phones (no names) are so obviously coloured--usually way too bright, in my experience--the makers obviously aren't interested in any concept of fidelity; they just want to make an impression, specifially on those unfamiliar with the sound of live instruments. And then of course there are those posters who only listen to electronica, who couldn't give a fig what live music sounds like and probably wouldn't like it if they did; for them, there's always the lower end Grados (oops, that name just slipped out). What bothers me is that phones that clearly aspire to some degree of neutrality are often described here as boring, lacking bass or sparkle, just not exciting enough, when it's obvious those descriptions are in comparison to more coloured phones. What's the answer? Not sure, but I think it's important that those  committed to fidelity as opposed to "fun" keep posting and reminding the forum that long-term listening pleasure (and thus, by definition, low long-term expenditure) lies in low listener fatigue, which means low colouration and at least an approximately neutral tonal balance. Either that or we change the Forum's name from "Head-Fi" to "Fun and Funky Headphones".
 
Hmmm...catchy that.

        

 

[jchandler3]

Quote:

lol
 
am I the only person who feels a headphone needs to have a bit extra bass to truly capture "live" because of the lack of real chest pounding bass?

No, I'm definitely with you on this one, Aynjell. I love the thought of absolute "neutrality," but without at least a little bass impact, it just loses all reality for me. I leave EQs alone, however, I sometimes turn on the crossfeed on my HR amp to get the sound "out of my head" and add just a touch of low end.

 

[beeman458]

I leave EQs alone, however, I sometimes turn on the crossfeed on my HR amp to get the sound "out of my head" and add just a touch of low end.
 
Makes me think of this song where the line goes: "I'm gonna add some bottom......"
 
"Dance to the Music"
 

 
The point, everything's colored and still fidelity.

 

[jchandler3]

 
Makes me think of this song where the line goes: "I'm gonna add some bottom......"
 
Haha, nice reference!
 
 
 
The point, everything's colored and still fidelity.
 
Bingo. My thoughts exactly.

 

[beeman458]

It's funny, but because of this thread, I've been enjoying how everything around us, as a guy, especially women, are colored in their own way.
 

 
The point, it's a colored world we live in where everything is vying for attention through the use of color.
 
I wrote how a composer can color a score by using one string instrument over another and in the same fashion, the composer can color the score by adding more of a particular instrument, EQ'g by raising the db of a particular note.  Not getting salacious, a gal, assuming she has good cleavage, can raise the db level by the degree of a plunging neckline or use of a push-up bra.
 
The point, again, it's all color and it's all fidelity.
 

 

[Satellite_6]

For what it's worth I love the 650s smooth yet accurate sound. I do not think it is entirely realistic but colored lightly in a beautiful fashion.
 
Pianos almost bring me to tiers at times. . . I'm a hopelessly obsessed audiophile. . . .
 

 

[dallan]

I kept my HD-650s with the Zu recable, they are perfect with my Zana Duex.  Since I got the HD800s in July of 2009 right before Canjam 09, i have listened to the 650s about four times at home and six or seven times with my Lisa lll amp on the road.  Can't let go of them because i like them but how can they possibly compete.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

It's funny, but because of this thread, I've been enjoying how everything around us, as a guy, especially women, are colored in their own way.
 

 
The point, it's a colored world we live in where everything is vying for attention through the use of color.
 
I wrote how a composer can color a score by using one string instrument over another and in the same fashion, the composer can color the score by adding more of a particular instrument, EQ'g by raising the db of a particular note.  Not getting salacious, a gal, assuming she has good cleavage, can raise the db level by the degree of a plunging neckline or use of a push-up bra.
 
The point, again, it's all color and it's all fidelity.
 

 
Absolutely!!
 
Once you get rid of the mental prejudices and at times, snobbery, you open your ears to new possibilities.  So much of what we choose to listen to in terms of fidelity is a matter of point of view and attitude.  A change of attitude can make the very same person grow to appreciate what he previously didn't.  I speak from direct experience here. 

 
The HD800's are superb in their own way.  So are the HD650's which lack in one department -- effortless bass depth and extension.  The HD800's introduced me to that.
 

 

[Stoney]

On the one hand, I keep forgetting that it is my particular hobby and vocation at times to pursue accurate reproduction.  Not everybody does or should share in that, as they enjoy their music.
 
On the other hand, when people are exposed to a highly accurate system, then tend to find that they both can distinguish it (sometimes to their surprise) and that they greatly enjoy it beyond previous experiences.  And, certain deviations from accuracy (as I hear in the lower treble of the HD800) can be greatly fatiguing, at least to those predisposed to that frequency range.  So, in that sense, accuracy is a stepping stone to enjoyment.  

 

[beeman458]

Stoney wrote:
 
On the one hand, I keep forgetting that it is my particular hobby and vocation at times to pursue accurate reproduction.
 
And what constitutes "accurate reproduction?"  Neil Diamond's use of reverb or the addition of a second guitar playing the same notes as the first?  How much color does the recording equipment add to the recorded event and how much color does the playback gear add/subtract?
 
The unasked question in my above is, when does reality begin and when does it leave off in the case of a recorded/playback moment?
 
Vinyl, tape, HDD, tubes, cables, SS/IC's, mic placement, soundboard, choice of pre-amps, combination of everything, warm, cool, expensive, on the cheap.........and on, and on, and on.  When does color end and accurate begin?
 
???
 
Me, I love my HD650's and I'm dying while waiting for a Burson HA-160 headphone amp to arrive Thursday via FedEx.  The question, is the HD800 just another colored event in the playback stream, waiting to be auditioned?  Next on my list is an NuForce, OPPO BDP-83SE Blu-ray player.
 
The point, is it about the headphones, the DAC/Amp circuit, the recording itself ripped in WAV, or is it a synergistic combination of the whole ripped WAV, DAC/Amp, cable, headphone, playback thingy.
 
???

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Me, I love my HD650's and I'm dying while waiting for a Burson HA-160 headphone amp to arrive Thursday via FedEx.  The question, is the HD800 just another colored event in the playback stream, waiting to be auditioned?  Next on my list is an NuForce, OPPO BDP-83SE Blu-ray player.
 
The point, is it about the headphones, the DAC/Amp circuit, the recording itself ripped in WAV, or is it a synergistic combination of the whole ripped WAV, DAC/Amp, cable, headphone, playback thingy.
 
???

 
The HD800's do add their own colouration that's remarkably similar to the HD600's.  However, they're still quite different from the HD600's in how effortlessly bass is rendered, as well as in the sense of space and improved sound-staging produced by the drivers being further away from your ears, the angulation of the drivers, as well as the type of open design.  There's a LOT of sound leakage with the HD800's.  I don't know why this is so and exactly how this adds to or takes away from the sound.  But with some good time, the stunning qualities of them become more and more evident.
 
They take things to a different level.
 
As to accuracy, I don't see how one can discuss this in detail without doing so in the context of the entire chain.