[Fafner]

I don't agree, my experience tells different, but everyone is allowed to have his opinions ofc.

My only concern is that one should try before stating or assuming. One thing is to say "I tried xxx but I couldn't hear any difference", another thing is to say "I'm sure it doesn't make any difference, it's pricey, it's just a cheat to make ppl spend money (can't exclude there could be some around)".

 

[ferraro25]

Stock. I'm not willing to take a chance spending a ton of money on something that might just be placebo.

 

[pabbi1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd2884 /img/forum/go_quote.gif To give another good reason to spend $1,400 on the headphones. Don't think it was a statement saying cables would make a difference to me. Just another hey look, more luxury for your headphones. Buy HD800, not ED8 or PS1000

Hmmm, I disagree. Sennheiser has seen that there is a strong preference for a better cable, and some of the stock cables, like the hd600, are almost criminally negligent in how poor the quality is - definitely not on par with the headphones themselves. The thought (apparently) was 'good enough', but to keep costs down, let the aftermarket handle the upgrade. That Jan Meier saw the need to introduce the Oehlbach shows it is NOT just the 'fly by night' cable guys who saw the demand. It really is an issue.

Oh, and the first time someone hears a decent cable, they are running to eBay, buying navShips wire (or mogami, or cat5), and rewiring their stock cables... that does not sound like placebo nor pecuniary emulation to me.

Pity Senn still dropped the ball and didn't offer balanced terminated cable, which one could then argue they really understood their population of users and what was actually happening in the wild.

To each their own, but cable is not just a marketing ploy, imho.

 

[lamikeith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd2884 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just curious, who uses stock cables or after market. A one line reason why would be great also.

Stock cable, because I do not believe that a different cable would improve the sound.

 

[evangellydonut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamikeith /img/forum/go_quote.gif Stock cable, because I do not believe that a different cable would improve the sound.

well... here's my take as an electrical engineer -

Copper is known as one of the best conductors (silver and gold are better iirc), and the more pure the copper, the better the SQ will be. Imperfection results in higher resistance, which results in higher heat dissipation, which results in higher signal loss, which results in loss of audio quality. How all of this relates to individual frequency is hard to say.

Proper shielding is important too, as any output from your amplifier is analog, and analog signals are susceptible to noise. However, I'm skeptical of the twisted-pair thing, which has obvious advantages when you are using it for digital data transmission or feeding into a differential amplifier, but headphones doesn't have a diff-amp as far as i know.

I guess cable size variation helps too... So current travels down copper wire because there's a high enough potential to break an electron free from the first copper atom; the free electron gets passed to the the next copper atom, and repeat. For now, let's forget the fact that electrons are negative in charge, so electrons move from headphone to amp direction... just concentrate on current flow. So next, imagine a giant copper cable vs. a tiny one that is only 1 atom thick, when you send a signal through the giant one, there are loads more ways for the signal to get to the other end where as the tiny one, there's only 1 path. The big cable will results in longer time before signal gets to the end due to all the creative path electrons can take. At the same time, it can send more signals through.

So in short, cables definitely make a difference. However, how much difference it makes, and does it justify the $100-400 that it costs, is subjective.

 

[obobskivich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangellydonut /img/forum/go_quote.gif well... here's my take as an electrical engineer - Copper is known as one of the best conductors (silver and gold are better iirc), and the more pure the copper, the better the SQ will be. Imperfection results in higher resistance, which results in higher heat dissipation, which results in higher signal loss, which results in loss of audio quality. How all of this relates to individual frequency is hard to say. Proper shielding is important too, as any output from your amplifier is analog, and analog signals are susceptible to noise. However, I'm skeptical of the twisted-pair thing, which has obvious advantages when you are using it for digital data transmission or feeding into a differential amplifier, but headphones doesn't have a diff-amp as far as i know. I guess cable size variation helps too... So current travels down copper wire because there's a high enough potential to break an electron free from the first copper atom; the free electron gets passed to the the next copper atom, and repeat. For now, let's forget the fact that electrons are negative in charge, so electrons move from headphone to amp direction... just concentrate on current flow. So next, imagine a giant copper cable vs. a tiny one that is only 1 atom thick, when you send a signal through the giant one, there are loads more ways for the signal to get to the other end where as the tiny one, there's only 1 path. The big cable will results in longer time before signal gets to the end due to all the creative path electrons can take. At the same time, it can send more signals through. So in short, cables definitely make a difference. However, how much difference it makes, and does it justify the $100-400 that it costs, is subjective.

ok so as an EE your officially making guesses? I really feel sorry for you mate, as most any EE I've met would tell you you're wrong here (there is no measurable difference, except at the Mhz level, with tenths of dBs, sorry, your ears aren't that good

)

pabbi1:
sennheiser sees that users will spend the money on an aftermarket cable, so why not market to it? its just wise marketing

when the HD 580 or HD 565 was "new", the whole headphone hi-fi hobby was relatively non-existant, and users were more or less content with the hp's themselves, I don't think its accurate to say its a "legitimate problem" just because some manufacturers are smart enough to turn a few bucks off of it (in other words, should we all be buying name brand ingredients for cooking, purely because "its a real problem, if someone makes something higher end"??)

I don't honestly believe Senn even considered aftermarket cables in designing the HD 565 or 580, they considered easily replacable cables for professional users, just like the K702 has, or various pro-line Ultrasones, so because those are removable, they're also a legitimate problem? and a sign of manufacturer incompetence? interesting.

 

[evangellydonut]

At the MHz level, skin-effect kicks in a little, and that becomes a whole different issue.

I doubt you have sat down with a spectrum analyzer and a function generator, and tested various cables over frequency, under various noise conditions. Neither have I. So at least until then, your hearsay is not exactly very useful, thank you very much. While I do agree that the difference is very small, there are lots of things "most any EE" don't think about when they design things... for example, if you have a 100 ft headphone cable, you end up wrapping it around and around something to make it shorter, you effectively create an inductance coil (if unshielded) and the behavior of the cable will be very different than a straight cable. This inductance effect has been known to make Apple power-supply cables spontaneously catch fire at worst.

As I noted, how much difference (in SQ) and is the cost worth it, is subjective. Just like some people are born as "super-tasters" with far more sensitive taste buds, the fact you can't hear the difference doesn't mean someone else can't... So as your signature state, your "trolling" will be ignored

 

[PhilS]

When Sennheiser's stock cable was cheaply made, the "skeptics" said this proved that Sennheiser knew that an upgraded cable did not offer an audible improvement. Now that Sennheiser has offered an upgraded cable, it's just "marketing." Great stuff.

Personally, I have found a difference between the stock cable for the HD-650 and an aftermarket cable, and I actually preferred the stock cable as compared to the one upgraded cable that I lived with for some time. I'm not sure I would prefer the stock cable to other aftermarket cables, however. But I've decided to hold off on further investigation for the time being, as the HD-800 may eventually replace my HD-650.

Anyway, it's just funny how people interpret the facts to fit their pre-determined conclusions.

 

[Patu]

I use Cardas for HD600. It's the best option for HD600. For HD650 there are better options. With HD650 you need different things from the cable than with HD600.

 

[Max F]

I don't know if cables make a difference or not. From the descriptions from folks here (both good and bad), I would say that they probably do (especially since some think the difference was worse!).

My problem is that these cables are SO expensive. Don't give me the crap about materials and hand wounding, blah blah. These guys are making a killing per cable.

I'm just happy I can change the sound of my HD650 by rolling tubes. The bonus is that they only cost me 10-20 bucks for each pair of tubes!

 

[csommers]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif ok so as an EE your officially making guesses? I really feel sorry for you mate, as most any EE I've met would tell you you're wrong here (there is no measurable difference, except at the Mhz level, with tenths of dBs, sorry, your ears aren't that good ) pabbi1: sennheiser sees that users will spend the money on an aftermarket cable, so why not market to it? its just wise marketing when the HD 580 or HD 565 was "new", the whole headphone hi-fi hobby was relatively non-existant, and users were more or less content with the hp's themselves, I don't think its accurate to say its a "legitimate problem" just because some manufacturers are smart enough to turn a few bucks off of it (in other words, should we all be buying name brand ingredients for cooking, purely because "its a real problem, if someone makes something higher end"??) I don't honestly believe Senn even considered aftermarket cables in designing the HD 565 or 580, they considered easily replacable cables for professional users, just like the K702 has, or various pro-line Ultrasones, so because those are removable, they're also a legitimate problem? and a sign of manufacturer incompetence? interesting.

I don't see where you got that argument from, no one is saying that. That would be like saying just because the batteries in your TV remote are replaceable the manufacturers are dumb. I don't get what you're trying to say.
They did it for ease of use and storage NOT because they thought they were worthless and should be upgraded.

No ones saying you "should" buy these, we're merely giving our opinions. In the end this is a hobby, and its up to the user to justify spending ANY money, be it on headphones, amps, dacs, etc. This forum is based upon opinions, so I fail to see why you are getting in such a fit over it. There are some things on here that are truth, ie the size/quality of headphones material, but 99.99% of the rest of forums is user opinions based upon hearing them. No one's hearing is alike, so its up to the end user to decide whether the item in question will benefit them.

As for the EE comment: just because he's an EE doesn't mean he knows everything about headphones etc. Its not like every EE goes through a course titled "Headphone Upgrades: Cables and how they change sound" lol.
Going by your logic: someone who knows how to use a desktop computer should know all about mainframes.

 

[Oggranak]

I have stock for the time being. My current priorities are as followed:

1 -> A nice interconnect
2 -> A good non-portable amp
3 -> Cables

 

[obobskivich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by csommers /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't see where you got that argument from, no one is saying that. That would be like saying just because the batteries in your TV remote are replaceable the manufacturers are dumb. I don't get what you're trying to say. They did it for ease of use and storage NOT because they thought they were worthless and should be upgraded.

did you read anything in this thread? I was responding to pabbi1's post

Quote:

Originally Posted by evangellydonut I doubt you have sat down with a spectrum analyzer and a function generator, and tested various cables over frequency, under various noise conditions. Neither have I. So at least until then, your hearsay is not exactly very useful, thank you very much.

Step 1, Read:
Matrix-Hifi: Red Zone --> The "truth" about different speakers cables

Step 2, KTHX

 

[LostOne.TR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spunkmeyer /img/forum/go_quote.gif I love the way my 650s sound with the RAL cryo-silver cables. Too bad you can't get them anymore. One of the best purchases I ever made.

Not trying to nitpick or anything, but did they stop making them? Or just the issue with RAL's business practices? I can understand either as reasons for not purchasing, very valid-- just wasn't sure if something else happened.

 

[obobskivich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostOne.TR /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not trying to nitpick or anything, but did they stop making them? Or just the issue with RAL's business practices? I can understand either as reasons for not purchasing, very valid-- just wasn't sure if something else happened.

not trying to flame, just making an observation, based on this post:

why does it seem various cable manufacturers (like various tweak manufacturers) seem to have the highest rate of consumer inconfidence, and do the shadiest business?