[Geek]

This thread is in relation to the sound of HD-600s compared to my most familiar style of music: baroque solo violin and chamber music, classical concertos and chamber music, romantic symphonies, and the like.

I got a chance just a few days ago to play with and then attend a performance by Ron François, an excellent violinist who currently heads the music program at Colorado University. He was touring in Montana and stopped by to perform at a recital with Johan Johnson, who heads the string program at Montana State, Bozeman.

Honestly, when sitting 5th row dead center, his performance was actually even more "laid-back" sounding than the HD-600s. It sounded way more "veiled" than the HD-600s. He was playing an excellent, bright-sounding violin which I had heard up close the day before. Believe me, up close it was quite piercing (of course, this was on-stage).

This to me was shocking. The hall in which the performance took place, Reynolds hall, was designed by a physicist to suit solo violin perfectly. It sounded more resonant and richer than any headphone sound I had ever heard and certainly more beautiful. The presentation of the hall was very scarily similar to HD600s: Extremely detailed, but also completely relaxed. Every breath of the performer was there, every scratch of the string, gutsy graininess at fortes, a soft, smooth tone when the soloist was more relaxed, etc. It was easy to hear the left hand touch the instrument and shift. I'm talking pretty good stuff here.

But it was also more laid-back and less intense than I've ever heard any headphone sound, period.

The "veil" of the violinist at a distance of about fifty feet was much greater than the "veil" of the HD-600s.

Therefore, my question is, could the dreaded "veil" of the HD-600 be there simply because live music is veiled?

And, furthermore, perhaps looking at it in the opposite fashion, was a perfectly natural sound crafted by Sennheiser? Perhaps Sennheiser actually made the 600s LESS veiled than real performances?

Food for thought.

I am interested in other people's input on this topic. Assuming you have heard the HD-600s, and have some experience with a good live reference point (classical, jazz, funk, blues jams, any sort of live experiences), what do you think about the laid-back nature of the HD-600s in relation to live performances? Does it add to or detract from an accurate presentation?

To summarize, I find that the 600s smoothly replicate classical performances and do very well on other types of music, but only fall short on hard rock unless the volume is at high levels.

I hope all that made sense.

Cheers,
Geek

 

[phonatic]

I'd have to agree with you, Geek.

I have heard an awful lot of live classical music. Aside from the inevitable imaging anomalies that come from having speakers strapped to one's head... the tonal quality of these headphones gets you about as close to that of a live performance of classical music as any I've heard.

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Every hall is different, every seating position is different, and everyone's taste in headphone fidelity is different.

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally posted by Geek The "veil" of the violinist at a distance of about fifty feet was much greater than the "veil" of the HD-600s.

So you're saying that the HD600 sounds more like a live performance than does a live performance? more you-are-there than actually being there?

Something must be wrong with mine.

 

[dabblerblue]

The distance you were from the violin probably has the largest affect on the sound you were hearing. There's the thing called comb filtering that happens when direct sound and reflected sound combine in our ears.

Since there is a delay between the direct sound and the reflected sound, some things will arrive "out of phase", causing certain frequencies and bits of what you are hearing to be boosted, and other parts to be attenuated. This will change the character of the sound depending on where you are in relation to the sound source.

When you listen to a recording of an instrument, you are basically placing your ears where the engineer placed the microphone(s). This is usually closer to the instrument (though not too close...sometimes you want a nice roomy sound

), and placed somewhere the engineer decided (usually through trial and error) that the performance captured would sound best.

Also, having on headphones eliminates most if not all of the comb filtering effect since what you are hearing is pretty much 99 - 100% direct sound.

(Hope I got this right...)

edit: Also, I'd love to hear some HD-600's sometime if what you're saying is accurate. I've wanted to own a pair for a while, but have never really had the kind of disposable income to be able to afford a pair and a nice headphone amp at the same time...

 

[Guardian]

I'd like to ask if you would discourage people from applying the mod in which the foam pads are removed to eliminate the veil created by the material.

 

[Frag|LE-]

Quote:

Originally posted by phonatic ... the tonal quality of these headphones gets you about as close to that of a live performance of classical music as any I've heard.

i suggest trying out the HE90s.

Quote:

Originally posted by Guardian I'd like to ask if you would discourage people from applying the mod in which the foam pads are removed to eliminate the veil created by the material.

i agree that removing the foam is a bad idea.

 

[Duncan]

I would agree that foam removal is a bad idea also...

It boosts the treble, which could be a good thing to some, but to me that just sounds like a deficiency, or... to be fairer, a lack of synergy within the rest of the 'system'

The HD600s are a great 'phone, I intend to maybe get another pair in the future, but for me they are a bit too laid back for the kind of music that I invariably listen to (dance / trance)

 

[bangraman]

I third not removing the foam. In my opinion it makes them sound like an inferior Grato compared to a stock HD600. A misguided and presumably irreversible attempt to give them more energy... It does, but compared with phones which actually do have well-implemented energy, it's like a half-inflated tyre.

 

[dd3mon]

I would also recommend against the HD600 mod for two reasons. For one, it makes the 600's fatiguing to me, the extreme high end treble becomes harsh IMO. Secondly for driver protection - it is easy for dirt/dust/debris to land on them withouth foam as protection. Of course this could be remedied by replacing the foam with another material, but as I said I prefer the sound with the foam.

-dd3mon

 

[JaZZ]

The HD 600 sounds more natural and more transparent to me without the foam pads – and with some nylon gauze instead. No fatiguing element at all and no loss of coherence neither in my main setup nor with my portable setup.

I don't perceive the more veiled presentation with the foam as more lifelike, quite the opposite. And there's clearly no similarity to the Grado sound without it.

 

[Hirsch]

I've never bothered with removing the foam pads, on the theory that if they don't hurt the sound of the R10 (also has foam pads), they're not going to damage the HD-600 sound much

I've now heard several amps that raise the question "what veil"? The Supra amp, EAR HP4, modded Melos SHA-1 (bkelly's unit) are among those that drive the HD-600 very cleanly. Yes, the sound can be made brighter (using a bright 12AT7 in the MicroZOTL was one way to do it). IMO the best strategy for the HD-600 is to decide whether or not you like the laid-back perspective, and then get the right amp to drive it. If you don't like the sound of the headphone, you might misperceive its laid-back nature as veiling. Or, if something in your system is not optimized for the HD-600, you may hear real veiling with it. Neither of these is a necessity, however, and it's very possible to hear the HD-600 sounding very clean and dynamic...at which point you stop worrying about "veiling".

 

[Guyferd]

I've heard sennheiser hd600 with creek obh-11se sometime ago.
Although I listened only for about 10 minutes, what struck me was, how natural and effortless the sound was coming out. very fluid, smooth and vocal is just right. It appears like you are really there listening. very very natural.
Some people said they are veiled, but to me, they are the perfect can that I've heard so far. Too bad I don't plan to upgrade anytime soon. Otherwise hd600 will be the first can I would get.

The composition of the sound is just right, I agree with Geek in some ways. Perhaps sennheiser engineers wanted to make it a very natural/life like headphone. A very nice can.

 

[jpelg]

Interesting observations and resulting comments. Particularly since I have returned to the Sennheiser "fold" with my most recent purchase of a new pair of HD600's and a Clou Red cable. This is after a six-month flurry of figuring out what kind of sound that lets me enjoy (all) my music the most.

Is this a return of the HD580/600 popularity?

 

[Steve999]

That made perfect sense to me, Geek. Wonderful post. I agree 100 percent, at least based on my experiences with the HD580s, with humble stock cables and driven by the porta corda or corda HA-1. I saw a lot of live classical and jazz performances in my younger days.

The image I get in my head when I listen to my HD580s is just like a snap, all the puzzle pieces are in place, they got it right. Period.

The image I get when I A/B my HD580s with my other phones is that here is an interesting and efficient way to ascertain the shortcomings or eccentricities of my other phones. Although, other than my HD580s (which themselves were only $120 new), my personal colllection is really quite humble.

I don't even look for headphones with better sound anymore. That game is all over for me. Listening to many other fine headphones at stores and headphone meets has only reinforced my impression.

I doubt if it's engineering prowess that allowed Sennheiser to arrive upon this sound. I've heard too many goofy headphones, inlcuding goofy headphones from Sennheiser. I think it's very had to get a sound like this at will and on purpose, or more companies would do it. After all, how high can the production cost be once you get the design right? I think they just tried very hard to make a good headphone and got extraordinarily lucky at the same time. Speculation on my part, I know.

Maybe with the HD600s they were able to take the HD580 sound that extra mile, who knows. The one time I A/Bed the two, I actually preferred the HD580s, but let's just say they sound a lot alike. I didn't really trust my impression all that much.

Quote:

Originally posted by Geek Therefore, my question is, could the dreaded "veil" of the HD-600 be there simply because live music is veiled? And, furthermore, perhaps looking at it in the opposite fashion, was a perfectly natural sound crafted by Sennheiser? Perhaps Sennheiser actually made the 600s LESS veiled than real performances? To summarize, I find that the 600s smoothly replicate classical performances and do very well on other types of music, but only fall short on hard rock unless the volume is at high levels. I hope all that made sense.