[OpusRob]

After reading several recent threads, and after a few weeks of deciding on headphones followed by a few weeks of considering amps, I find myself asking a deep question. It seems as though many people here move through lots of different equipment in their journey, learning as they go and fine-tuning their ears along the way. While there is a greater expense to this model, it seems as though people actually refine their tastes and their listening skills doing this. It also seems as though something might be lost by skipping this process and jumping to the "best of all possible worlds," to quote Voltaire. Being an independent school music teacher, I don't have endless funds to devote to this hobby, which is really an extension of my greatest hobby and love, music itself. But, as an educator, I wouldn't want to miss out on learning experiences that could help to refine my already detail-oriented ears. These ears tell me a lot already, but I kind of think that I would be missing something if I were to skip the learning process and jump to a set up that I haven't earned through trial and error.

So, to the question: Do those of you who have experimented over the years with a variety of equipment feel that that journey has been worthwhile, or has it just been a frustrating struggle to find you knew you were looking for all along. I guess I am asking, If you knew then what you know now, would you make the same journey, or would you just jump to the best thing you could conceivably afford, given the advice of knowledgeable people you trust, and just be done?

I would love some feedback on this from all of you who have been here a while. I have read with great interest many posts and bits of advice you've offered, and have admired your commitment to finding and sharing what you love about music and its expression through high end audio equipment.

 

[stewtheking]

I find your comments interesting, as I myself feel that I have had to go backwards, as I went too high too soon. I jumped from an SR60 (my first real headphones) straight up to the RS-1. No messing. It was awesome, but I really didn't know how awesome it was, as I had no comparison. The RS-1 has since gone, and I have gone back and tried various other offerings, some bought and some in meet conditions, before finally "settling" (haha, curse you head-fi) on the k1000's.

If you buy second hand, the hobby genuinely doesn't work out that expensive. The lively F/S boards here mean that you can pretty easily sell on gear and buy new stuff, and not end up losing thousands in depreciation. [sp.].

For me, going back and having a "journey" was extremely beneficial, but like everything in audio, it's all personal isn't it?

 

[Hi-Finthen]

This site embraces many types of folks with varried interest which falls under the one heading. You'll notice in the recent poll only about 35% consider themselves audiophiles, 35% somewhat so and 30% said no. That is very telling, and even amongst the hard core group, as you point out cost becomes a big issue.

So it all becomes relative, as much as what sounds acceptable or good or better and great does, also relative as to what one is willing to invest in persuing this.
To many, I suspect, this is a hobby, an expensive hobby perhaps, and one worth investing time and money into. In terms of time spent, that's what hobbys are about, isn't it... The process becomes fun and interesting as much so maybe, as is the resulting music at times.

Also, we are multitasking and enjoying the persuit of music at the same time of course.
Nothing at all less so important than to help others choose their stuff within their budjet, to enjoy their music with; Never to hear from them again as that's all they wanted from the site and the experience. Rather than an audiophile headphone experience and hobby, maybee?

Audiophiles, as I understand it, are looking always to improvements and more and the persuit of doing so networking here, and reading is all apart of that learning curve. And yes, it cost bucks for ever smaller improvements after a certain sweet spot for an adaquate system. However, even that is relative to ones own disposable cash flow, isn't it? Questions such as, is it worth it, can only be answered by ecch of us.

However, testing equepment and selling of it holds much less risk or depreciation with this form of audio equepment as well as shipping costs, than other audio gears for sure. And that is why alot of folks buy and trade and even move up, cause what they bought holds it value so well, 'cause we take good care of our gears etc...All apart of this hobby and its process by those so inclined to participate, maybee those 35%....
The question is really what do YOU want. What's your budget? And what are your expectations, which is relative to each of our referance with music and audio gear and budget.

Hope that is helpful to your further understanding and pursuit of what you want.

Good luck~

 

[euclid]

i havnt been in this hobby for very long but i have owned(and resold) a fair amount of equipment and i do feel that in itself has been very valuable experience. my ears have gotten more critical as i understand what is actually limiting my enjoyment, and then at that point ive made system changes to correct those flaws, i wouldnt have understood that if i just decided on something and went all out from the start, and it wouldnt be tuned to my taste i would just have had to adjust to it.

it's most important to tune your system to your personal taste in music and even your content. a very high resolution system paired with a lossy MP3 can be very frustrating, just as an underpowered or overly flavored setup can ruin a high fidelity and accurate CD source. rock, metal, jazz, vocal, rap, classical all thrive on a certain and slightly different presentation.

first thing is to make a decision about which content you will focus on then at that point buy the best source you can afford, be it a dedicated redbook CD player, a DVD/CD player, turntable, soundcard and DAC, portable whatever. then read the forums thoroughly and decide on a pair of headphones you think would suit your general tastes, if you generally like the bass/mids/highs interaction and overall soundstage then stick with those headphones and gradually work your way up the amp chain and try both solid state and tubes until you have found the presentation that compliments your music. i think the amp is the most variable and valuable component, an amp will make or break an otherwise fine set of headphones and you will be chasing your tail trying to correct that flaw. once you are to the point of confidence and trust in your source and amp combo it becomes more enjoyable to cycle some other headphones through your system, and then you can really make an honest judgment about what headphone suits you best.

hard rock and metal has always been the thorn in my system, yet i enjoy it the most overall so it has been pushing me on the upgrade path. based on the other music i listen to i probably would have been satisfied with less expensive or overly flavored and slower gear. but ive been really striving for neutrality though and its hard to get.

edit: and BUY USED!

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OpusRob /img/forum/go_quote.gif It also seems as though something might be lost by skipping this process and jumping to the "best of all possible worlds," to quote Voltaire. Being an independent school music teacher, I don't have endless funds to devote to this hobby, which is really an extension of my greatest hobby and love, music itself. But, as an educator, I wouldn't want to miss out on learning experiences that could help to refine my already detail-oriented ears. These ears tell me a lot already, but I kind of think that I would be missing something if I were to skip the learning process and jump to a set up that I haven't earned through trial and error.

There are tons of people who have been audiophiles 20-30+ years, yet feel they have never achieved their goal, even on their deathbeds. Therein lies the 2 basic problems with this approach and hobby IMO:

1. The source recording.

The vast majority simply stink to high heavens. You can spend millions of dollars on your equipment, yet you can NEVER overcome the poor source, period. There are recordings that I can play through cheap $200 speakers or car stereo and completely satisfy me without any need for more expensive playback system. Then there are the rest, the ones you can pour in your last dollar and effort to play to some degree of believability yet never satisfy.

This is why you find seasoned audiophiles repeatedly playing their dozen or so "good" recordings from labels like WaterLilly (which sound wonderful BTW) or SACD's (done properly) and bask in short-lived moments of truth and glory.

Then they play albums of types of music they would actually want to listen to and walk away discouraged. Then they find themselves making Audiogon or Ebay as their homepage, looking for that "magic" cure or "next great thing" that will cure the ills of the problem sources. This is IMO why people can sell $3500 power cords that cost $100 to manufacture and that rare NOS tube for 100X the original price to desperate audiophiles.

2. "best of all possible worlds," the Holy Grail

Simply put, there is no such thing. One man's Holy Grail is another man's disappointment, and vice versa. This is why people spend $$$$ buying other men's proclaimed Holy Grail, just to re-sell them at a loss, just to try other Holy Grails. Sure, there is certainly a Holy Grail out there for each individual that will probably be pretty satisfying for a lot of your music and budget, but you are simply not going to find it the EASY way, i.e. reading about it. When all is said and done, YOU have to be the one to listen to the gear in question and like it, buy it, then assemble all the other factors in the system. It takes tremendous WILL, time, effort, and money.

If you are that extremely lucky individual who bought a system from reading about them AND are satisfied. Then you need to stop reading this thread and forum right now and disconnect your internet service. Lucky person, go away and leave us alone

 

[Uncle Erik]

Rob, I think the most important thing is to define your goal as finding something that sounds good as opposed to finding the "best." The "best" is one of those fruitless, impossible searches like trying to find the meaning of life, truth or the "perfect" spouse. Someone wiser might know better than me, but the ultimate rig is a grail just like what I mentioned. You won't find it.

If you go in knowing that the "best" is a hopeless pipe dream, you can adjust your goal to "it sounds good." Sounding good is entirely different. Lots of gear sounds good. Actually, most of the stuff discussed here sounds good. And you'll end up at the other side of coin, which would be an overwhelming amount of choices.

So, how to go about it? I'd recommend setting a budget for headphones, an amp and source. Then read up on what falls in your budget and buy used. If you don't like it, you can usually get your money out.

Also, the road to knowing more is a good time. There's always something more to do or try, so it doesn't get old. And (of course) you get to talk about it here, which is half the fun.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OpusRob /img/forum/go_quote.gif After reading several recent threads, and after a few weeks of deciding on headphones followed by a few weeks of considering amps, I find myself asking a deep question. It seems as though many people here move through lots of different equipment in their journey, learning as they go and fine-tuning their ears along the way. While there is a greater expense to this model, it seems as though people actually refine their tastes and their listening skills doing this. It also seems as though something might be lost by skipping this process and jumping to the "best of all possible worlds," to quote Voltaire. Being an independent school music teacher, I don't have endless funds to devote to this hobby, which is really an extension of my greatest hobby and love, music itself. But, as an educator, I wouldn't want to miss out on learning experiences that could help to refine my already detail-oriented ears. These ears tell me a lot already, but I kind of think that I would be missing something if I were to skip the learning process and jump to a set up that I haven't earned through trial and error. So, to the question: Do those of you who have experimented over the years with a variety of equipment feel that that journey has been worthwhile, or has it just been a frustrating struggle to find you knew you were looking for all along. I guess I am asking, If you knew then what you know now, would you make the same journey, or would you just jump to the best thing you could conceivably afford, given the advice of knowledgeable people you trust, and just be done? I would love some feedback on this from all of you who have been here a while. I have read with great interest many posts and bits of advice you've offered, and have admired your commitment to finding and sharing what you love about music and its expression through high end audio equipment.

Hi OpusRob

Very interesting points you bring up.

And here's some wrinkles that I've encountered during my journey:

... In order to be able to properly evaluate good headphones, you need an amp capable of driving them to close to their potential and in order to hear the differences between good amps, you need headphones capable of allowing you to discern their subtle differences.

... And, as your audio descriptor skill set develops, the sound you might understand today, as full and rich, could very well become classified as "syrupy", or what you might now classify as clean and clear, may some day be understood as "analytical". These are just examples, but I'm sure you see what I mean.

... It was difficult for me to adjust to this concept, but there is probably no single "perfect" headphone - amp combination for all music and all systems. So in that respect, part of the journey is to discover and accumulate your own component synergies for the different types of music you listen to.

Regards

USG

 

[drarthurwells]

My headphone system gives me a level of natural and realsitic sound that I never thought was possible even just a year ago.

I would gladly spend thousands more on one component that offered an improvement but I suspect it would give me a slightly different sound but not better.

My HP system would not have been possible 18 months earlier since some parts of it were not available before then. So your system has to evolve to some extent to keep up with the new tech and better products.

Beware of who you listen to.

Don't trust any evalution of sound quality that was not made over intensive evaluation as in actual ownership and prolonged use.

Don't go all solid state in a preamp/amp but do go all SS in your source. Use a tube preamp and solid state amp (or hybrid amp) or an all tube integrated amp. Select tube setups with as much care as you select acomponent.

Many have more money than sense and this is reflected in what they think is best. Price is not always an indicator of best quality.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OpusRob /img/forum/go_quote.gif After reading several recent threads, and after a few weeks of deciding on headphones followed by a few weeks of considering amps, I find myself asking a deep question. It seems as though many people here move through lots of different equipment in their journey, learning as they go and fine-tuning their ears along the way. While there is a greater expense to this model, it seems as though people actually refine their tastes and their listening skills doing this. It also seems as though something might be lost by skipping this process and jumping to the "best of all possible worlds," to quote Voltaire. Being an independent school music teacher, I don't have endless funds to devote to this hobby, which is really an extension of my greatest hobby and love, music itself. But, as an educator, I wouldn't want to miss out on learning experiences that could help to refine my already detail-oriented ears. These ears tell me a lot already, but I kind of think that I would be missing something if I were to skip the learning process and jump to a set up that I haven't earned through trial and error. So, to the question: Do those of you who have experimented over the years with a variety of equipment feel that that journey has been worthwhile, or has it just been a frustrating struggle to find you knew you were looking for all along. I guess I am asking, If you knew then what you know now, would you make the same journey, or would you just jump to the best thing you could conceivably afford, given the advice of knowledgeable people you trust, and just be done? I would love some feedback on this from all of you who have been here a while. I have read with great interest many posts and bits of advice you've offered, and have admired your commitment to finding and sharing what you love about music and its expression through high end audio equipment.

Frustrating.. I spent 3,000 on Audio.. Made over a grand back due to selling my items.. For 2 grand my set up should sound awesome..Maybe my expectations are just set to high.. I know on excellent recordings my set up shines, but excellent recordings are hard to come by.. Same with DVD's.. Out of my entire DVD collection, only 5 give me that tingly sensation.. Especially, the background music in Xmen2 when Wolverine fights the chick in my avatar..(her name eludes me at the moment)

Basically.. I'm looking to get a used DAC1 or a used BC2.. AT5000/AKG1000/STAX 404/ & Extreme/HR-2/Cordia Pre head II.. & if this doesn't do it for me, I'm in the wrong hobby, cause nothing will satisfy me..

 

[OpusRob]

Thanks for all your feedback so far. I find the journey intriguing, the same way I found my path into photography worth the experimentation. I think moderation and careful purchasing, along with a healthy dose of skepticism can act as a foil for my current rampant curiosity about amps, headphones, and the like.

 

[euclid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells /img/forum/go_quote.gif Don't go all solid state in a preamp/amp but do go all SS in your source. Use a tube preamp and solid state amp (or hybrid amp) or an all tube integrated amp. Select tube setups with as much care as you select acomponent.

see thats where this hobby is frustrating, my system has evolved to all solid state and i am very satisfied with it, but its very revealing of the source. if you have a crapty front end then even good recordings will sound bad. tough to explain but 'crap in'/'crap out'. some people dont believe that and just cover 'crap in' with 'colored out'.

 

[Asr]

You raise a good point OpusRob. It's been brought up before, so you're not the first.

There are plenty of advantages to experiencing the "journey" and other advantages to going straight for the end (for those who can succeed). IMO though, it's more fun experiencing the journey, starting out with inexpensive components, gradually replacing them, and then finding the one component that you can settle on. Sure it's a lot more expensive to go that route, but then you get to experience all the fun of different sound sigs, whether from sources, or amps, or cables. You might end up doing something completely differently than you originally planned - that's what ended up happening to me. I started here on Head-Fi looking for circumaural closed cans. But pretty soon I'll own absolutely no closed cans.

However, if you already know what your ears like, you don't really need to go down the road towards the journey. Just read a lot of reviews and take the short path.

 

[granodemostasa]

what i don't understand is how can people even know what the "end" will be... that's what makes it fun. for me, i love the journey.

 

[chesebert]

For me the end is discovering speaker and what a great set can do.

 

[OpusRob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by euclid /img/forum/go_quote.gif see thats where this hobby is frustrating, my system has evolved to all solid state and i am very satisfied with it, but its very revealing of the source. if you have a crapty front end then even good recordings will sound bad. tough to explain but 'crap in'/'crap out'. some people dont believe that and just cover 'crap in' with 'colored out'.

It's hard (as I am starting out) knowing just how my source fits in in the larger world here. When I bought it, it was the best cd player I could afford, and I really, really liked it sonically and in terms of the build quality, and it has served me well. But in the larger world, does it hold up as a decent source? It's hard to know. (Marantz CC-65SE).

Also, along the lines of making the journey and learning along the way, is there anywhere that explains in at least a rough way how things like amplifiers and DAC's work? I am interested in knowing more, but don't come from an engineering background. I am smart enough to understand stuff, and find myself wishing there was a section of head-fi that assist the curious in this way.