[Kazz123]

I have recently seen an Apogee Mini-Dac, released around the year 2000 for ~1000$, sold for around 200$. I'm not sure how to gauge whether or not that price is low or high by modern standards.

Of course, back in early 00-s a DAC that supports 192kHz streaming over USB was a huge deal. These days most basic sub-100$ DACs can do 192kHz easily, be it dedicated DACs like the recent Topping D10, or ones built into entire AD/DA systems like a 2in/2out audio interfaces from Steinberg/Focusrite/Motu/etc.

Would the sound quality of those differ much from a real professional piece of gear like the Apogee? Or with something equally old and high-end like Benchmark DAC-1.

 

[Voxata]

Most material doesn't even saturate high bitrates. It's mostly about distortion and other measurement data now. However, I still believe in the age old "does it sound good" technique as well as supporting measurements. There are still some incredibly overpriced DACs out there. More often than not though, your money could be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Kazz123]

Most material doesn't even saturate high bitrates. It's mostly about distortion and other measurement data now. However, I still believe in the age old "does it sound good" technique as well as supporting measurements. There are still some incredibly overpriced DACs out there. More often than not though, your money could be better spent elsewhere.

Yep, that as well of course. That's why I feel like something that performs as well as 85$ Topping D10 in terms of noise floor and distortion, as well as linearity, would be at least 500$+ in 2002. And because of that, I'm not sure what to think of the Apogee Mini-DAC in context to that.

Of course, Apogee is a known company in the pro audio world, and their stuff is tried and true. But they're also known to overprice their products because of that reputation. Something they make will mostly likely cost 2x more than a comparable-spec product from the competition. Unless it's another higher-price-because-of-reputation company like Neumann, SPL or RME.

Because of that I agree with you that it's probably best to look elsewhere and not consider buying a 20-year old piece of digital hardware for this much, despite the fact that it's considerably cheaper than when it came out.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Usually Pro stuff is more about connectivity and solid build than absolute sound quality. It has to be able to take a beating, be repairable, etc. A lot of Pro gear doesn't have a good feature set for hifi use. It really depends on the specific piece of equipment you're talking about.

Specific to an old DAC is whether there is USB support at all. If you can live with coax or optical it doesn't matter. But a lot of people are running right off a PC and you need good USB support and devices that old may not have anything reasonable and maybe not USB at all.

 

[Voxata]

I'm not sure they had the ability to test gear into such depth during development as they do now in modern day. There is a far better focus on implementation. I will say this though, as an owner of the Topping D50 I felt it sounded a bit bleached or bright in comparison with the D70. Measurements show audible improvements could be made on the D50 but the difference was fairly stark in my listening. The D10 I've no experience with though. Are you looking to move up or just doing some thinking about how far things have come?

 

[Kazz123]

Are you looking to move up or just doing some thinking about how far things have come?

I saw that DAC and it looked interesting, so I wanted to read about it a bit. Not really interested in getting it as a replacement to my current setup, was more interested in how things have changed over the years. I think a lot of people here have more knowledge on that, and can compare.

 

[sajunky]

I'm not sure they had the ability to test gear into such depth during development as they do now in modern day. There is a far better focus on implementation. I will say this though, as an owner of the Topping D50 I felt it sounded a bit bleached or bright in comparison with the D70. Measurements show audible improvements could be made on the D50 but the difference was fairly stark in my listening. The D10 I've no experience with though. Are you looking to move up or just doing some thinking about how far things have come?

Topping DACs are tuned for measurements, that look especially good on the sponsored websites. A proper listening tests are not performed on these websites. It is good to have a low noise floor, but it doesn't matter if things are already 20dB well below any detection levels. Other things matter. I have the same experience with Topping D30 $130 which sounds like a s$i#. A Realtek chip in a Sony Vaio laptop sounds better.

 

[holospringfan]

I think there are simply much more manufacturers playing the DAC game
competition is good/healthy

Topping DACs are tuned for measurements, that look especially good on the sponsored websites. A proper listening tests are not performed on these websites. It is good to have a low noise floor, but it doesn't matter if things are already 20dB well below any detection levels. Other things matter. I have the same experience with Topping D30 $130 which sounds like a s$i#. A Realtek chip in a Sony Vaio laptop sounds better.

supposedly topping E line (E30) will be much better than previous D line. so far very good reviews

 

[sajunky]

I think there are simply much more manufacturers playing the DAC game
competition is good/healthy


supposedly topping E line (E30) will be much better than previous D line. so far very good reviews

Topping do not belong to them. I am sure that E30 will be 'topping' on the heavily sponsored websites.
One thing you must know before ordering. A DAC reviewed may be not the same as a DAC you received. My D30 substantially differs from the reviewed unit on ASR. The expensive SiTime oscilators had been replaced with a cheap no-name parts I found on AliExpress for $0.30 each and I suspect opamps are fake, as they sound not like original OP2134. You can see photos on the ASR D30 teardown test. Since the people started to complain, Amir do not do Topping teardown reviews anymore.

 

[holospringfan]

My D30 substantially differs from the reviewed unit on ASR. The expensive SiTime oscilators had been replaced with a cheap no-name parts I found on AliExpress for $0.30 each and I suspect opamps are fake, as they sound not like original OP2134. You can see photos on the ASR D30 teardown test. Since the people started to complain, Amir do not do Topping teardown reviews anymore.

That's pretty sad to hear. I guess fakes are always a concern though, in china

 

[sajunky]

That's pretty sad to hear. I guess fakes are always a concern though, in china

This is not fake. I repeat, my D30 is not fake. Read users response to the ASR teardown test thread. This is what Topping is doing to the customers. Reviewed product use high quality components, then shortly a product receives new revisions of PCB (which is understood, it may be improvements), but on the occasion it get populated with cheap or even fake components like opamps like in my case. You will not be able to distinguish fake opamps other than by a sound it make. For oscilators it is easy check. Open your D30 and see whether you have three SiTime oscilators as in reviewed unit. These are in black enclosure, different from other brands, not a shiny metal cans like these no-name parts. For a $130 product such practice is not acceptable.

 

[bagwell359]

Well around 2000-2004 the only two DAC's I could tolerate were a Krell and an ARC - both in the $18-20k area. I'd bet they are selling for $4-6k and much of that is for the snob appeal. I thought when I heard the Gumby in 2015 it was their equal and it cost what $1395. I have no way to conduct a full study of new DAC's running $400-1000, but I'd bet there are a few that would beat out the old guys and probably the Gumby too.

 

[ThanatosVI]

Well around 2000-2004 the only two DAC's I could tolerate were a Krell and an ARC - both in the $18-20k area. I'd bet they are selling for $4-6k and much of that is for the snob appeal. I thought when I heard the Gumby in 2015 it was their equal and it cost what $1395. I have no way to conduct a full study of new DAC's running $400-1000, but I'd bet there are a few that would beat out the old guys and probably the Gumby too.

I might dream of a dCS Bartok, but in reality it will be a Gumby that keeps me happy in the upcoming decade

 

[sajunky]

On the beginning of 2000's I was dreaming about ECD1 DAC, but settled down for some modded CD player with PCM63 converter. Before, I didn't tolerate any DAC or CD player I could afford.

Today I can afford Audio GD R2R11 and I don't really need anything better - things are changed. On the road there is a $42 Nobsound 8x TDA 1387 DAC/HPA, not really a high-end piece (and an old tech), but it gives very musical R2R sound and is quite acceptable on a desktop too.

 

[Koei]

Topping DACs are tuned for measurements, that look especially good on the sponsored websites. A proper listening tests are not performed on these websites. It is good to have a low noise floor, but it doesn't matter if things are already 20dB well below any detection levels. Other things matter. I have the same experience with Topping D30 $130 which sounds like a s$i#. A Realtek chip in a Sony Vaio laptop sounds better.

Show me one review with a proper listening test of a DAC you like. Just one.