[BassDigger]

thanks for the reply - I just had one question that's off topic. I have a Matrix Mstage UPA-2 that I plan on using as a preamp out to Gustard H10. - (For the very reason people saying sepeeate preamp is good vs. not good, so I want to hear it for myself if a seperate preamp would actualy improve sound quality.) Anyway, it's a technical question - do I just connect mstage to h10 using rca OUT from mstage to rca IN on h10 and everything would work fine as they should correct? I'd be able dial volume only through mstage, and h10 would only work as a amp without volume control. No need to fiddle with any other hardware settings? thanks,

 
As Olek said, the volume will always be active on the H10. The reason for this is that it's not possible to bypass the pre-amp section (containing the volume control) of the H10; it has no 'pre-in' inputs, like a dedicated power amp would have. This is quite normal.
So, if you are using the volume control on your dac, as your main volume as if the dac is also the pre-amp, you'd normally set the volume control on the H10 at maximum, because it is acting as the power amp. But, of course, you should be very careful when doing this. It's a good habit to return volume controls to zero, whenever you're not listening, and especially when switching on, or switching anything.
 
Why some people have reported an improvement (with what's often described as double amping) is still a mystery.
One theory is that the pre-input section, of the H10, is a bit fussy and needs a good signal to work at its best. Perhaps to do with impedance matching. This is not so uncommon.
But in an ideal world, double amping, or putting the signal through twice as much circuitry to do the same job, is a compromise that is only going to degrade the signal. The better solution would be a quality stand-alone dac, with a good line-level (no volume control) output.
 
What I would suggest, if you are trying this experiment, is to try a variety of volume settings on the H10. I'd start at halfway, and then gradually turn it up, and your dac down. Be careful not to overdrive the inputs of the H10. This could happen if your dac output is too high, and the H10 volume setting too low. It'd sound like typical (too loud) distortion, even though the actual loudness may be quite low.

 

[BassDigger]

"... and dont forget to opamp roll...."

 

 Have you?
                    

 

 

[pippen99]

   
As Olek said, the volume will always be active on the H10. The reason for this is that it's not possible to bypass the pre-amp section (containing the volume control) of the H10; it has no 'pre-in' inputs, like a dedicated power amp would have. This is quite normal.
So, if you are using the volume control on your dac, as your main volume as if the dac is also the pre-amp, you'd normally set the volume control on the H10 at maximum, because it is acting as the power amp. But, of course, you should be very careful when doing this. It's a good habit to return volume controls to zero, whenever you're not listening, and especially when switching on, or switching anything.
 
What I would suggest, if you are trying this experiment, is to try a variety of volume settings on the H10. I'd start at halfway, and then gradually turn it up, and your dac down. Be careful not to overdrive the inputs of the H10. This could happen if your dac output is too high, and the H10 volume setting too low. It'd sound like typical (too loud) distortion, even though the actual loudness may be quite low.

I am using the volume control on my Auralic Vega since it has a remote and is more convenient since I am always adjusting volume depending on track selection.  I set the H10 on approximately 12:00 and generally depending on the recording the Vega is at 65-80 on a 100 scale.  If I set the H10 at full volume the Vega would probably be at about 20 most of the time.  I am hesitant to try this.  The thought of my headphones plugged into any amp at full blast is a little bit frightening.  Also would the output from the Vega being so low be a good situation?
 
On the topic of a opamp rolling, I installed the 797/823 combo that Stuartmc and others found exciting.  At first listen I too found the clarity of the top end to be greatly enhanced.  Now that I've had them in for about 10 days I'm not so sure this is a good thing.  Yes there is a noticeable improvement in the top end,  but I'm beginning to feel that it has become a bit too clinical.  I'm feeling a bit of loss of soul or life that I had previously(warmth?).  Any suggestions for an opamp combo for this?

 

[jjkes]

As far as op amps are concerned, I went through the same process. I installed the 797/823 combo and initially liked the results but after about a week the sound became fatiguing so I put the stock op amps back in and haven't looked back. I believe people will get different results depending on their system.

 

[BassDigger]

  I am using the volume control on my Auralic Vega since it has a remote and is more convenient since I am always adjusting volume depending on track selection.  I set the H10 on approximately 12:00 and generally depending on the recording the Vega is at 65-80 on a 100 scale.  If I set the H10 at full volume the Vega would probably be at about 20 most of the time.  I am hesitant to try this.  The thought of my headphones plugged into any amp at full blast is a little bit frightening.  Also would the output from the Vega being so low be a good situation?
 
On the topic of a opamp rolling, I installed the 797/823 combo that Stuartmc and others found exciting.  At first listen I too found the clarity of the top end to be greatly enhanced.  Now that I've had them in for about 10 days I'm not so sure this is a good thing.  Yes there is a noticeable improvement in the top end,  but I'm beginning to feel that it has become a bit too clinical.  I'm feeling a bit of loss of soul or life that I had previously(warmth?).  Any suggestions for an opamp combo for this?

 
It makes sense, if you're more than 'a reach' away from your H10. Also, I understand that the Vega is a dac/processor, and has no built-in amp section. You could probably use this as a pre-amp, and connect it directly to a power amp (for a speaker system). Or in the case of headphone use, set the headphone amp at a high volume, as you have.
 
You should experiment with this; I don't think that you have to be too concerned about having the Vega set too high and over-driving the H10 input; your Vega outputs appear to be line level, rather than amplified. Just experiment, not forgetting that the H10 has gain settings (dip switches) also, and find what you think has the best sound.
I would certainly suggest trying a bit less gain, with the Vega (volume), and a bit more with the H10. Just always remember that the H10 has the 'master' volume; as long as you turn that down, when switching anything, you can't do any damage.
 
Op amps:
Unfortunately, I'm not the best person to comment about these; I haven't tried any....yet.
But, I try and take note of what others have written, and it's interesting to read your comments.
The 797s have got pretty much universal praise. A few have recommended the 823, whilst one or two others, like yourself, have questioned them. Commenting, if I recall, that they can make the sound a little too analytical or lacking some of the H10's characteristic warmth, when combined with the 797. At least one person has experimented with returning the stock op-amp, and re-replacing the ad823. Another has tried an op-amp from another manufacturer.
I'm not sure what the final verdict is, with either option. But hopefully, there'll be some more op-amp updates in the near future.
 
Edit: Looks like somebody already has. 

 
 
Edit: Brain fade- I should have said that maybe you shouldn't be worried about turning up the H10. Remember that the H10 is playing the part of a power amp; they don't have a pre-section or a potentiometer (variable resistor-volume control), and are always on at 100%. Just get into the (good) habit of always returning the H10 volume to zero, and you shouldn't have any nasty surprises.
Reducing the vega volume setting shouldn't be a problem; it appears to be a good quality unit; it probably has a relatively good output section, that'll work well with the H10's input.
In the end, of course, it's your ears that decide which relative volume positions sound best. Just don't forget that there's a third element; the pre-gain dip switches (on the back of the H10).

 

[stuartmc]

  Op amps:
Unfortunately, I'm not the best person to comment about these; I haven't tried any....yet.
But, I try and take note of what others have written, and it's interesting to read your comments.
The 797s have got pretty much universal praise. A few have recommended the 823, whilst one or two others, like yourself, have questioned them. Commenting, if I recall, that they can make the sound a little too analytical or lacking some of the H10's characteristic warmth, when combined with the 797. At least one person has experimented with returning the stock op-amp, and re-replacing the ad823. Another has tried an op-amp from another manufacturer.
I'm not sure what the final verdict is, with either option. But hopefully, there'll be some more op-amp updates in the near future.
 
Edit: Looks like somebody already has. 

 

 
Because folks are taking my lead on the 797/823 combo, I think a few more words on the subject are in order.  There are no universally "right" opamps for the H10. The variables of taste and associated equipment make for many, many "personal right" opamps.  That being said, let me expound a bit on why I like the 797/823  matchup.  My principal "thing" when it comes to headphone listening is how closely I can come to hearing  a real soundstage with all the ambient cues provided by the actual recording environment and imaging within that stage that is as palpably real as I can get it. Tonal balance and micro/macro dynamics are also important to me, but I don't seem to differentiate gear as well when I'm listening for these characteristics.  
 
I have gone completely bonkers in my efforts to minimize emi/rfi and power related issues.   I am triple teaming the power conditioning with a Tice Power Block, Quantum Octave strip and a Quantum Symphony unit. I am using very effective (and yes, expensive) power cords throughout and the juncture of power cords to IEC sockets are covered with Yamamura Sleaves.  The insides of every component has been carefully treated with 3M AB5100S emi/rfi shielding material. Shakti stones are perched on top of USB-DDC and Dac and vibration isolation is done with black diamond cones on  Golden Sound DS squares on top of Townsend Seismic Sinks. In other words, I have gone about as far as I can go to eliminate the kinds of things that produce treble grain and edginess and generally muck up the subtle ambient cues in the soundstage.
 
My preferred headphones are a highly modified pair of Hifi-man He-560's that are optimized for smooth treble and the largest possible soundstage. I use the ALO Audio Reference 16 headphone cable because of its amazing transparency and tonal balance.
 
This is the environment in which I do my op-amp "swabbing."   My system can withstand the most extended and detailed treble I can throw at it. In fact, it seems to thrive on it.  The 797/823 combo brings it better than any of the others I tried.  
To my ears, they just mop the floor with the stock op-amps.  Now, this is not to say that the stock opa134/5532 sound bad. We all know they sound wonderful and Gustard probably selected them because they sound that way in the vast majority of systems.  They just happen to be a little on the warm and smooth side of things. To my ears, the 797/823 combo has a much more neutral tonal presentation and its top end and detail give me a much more realistic listening experience.   Goosebumps come in the little details that ride just above the noise floor. When these details come through more clearly, its a goosebump-a-palooza.  I'm getting this quite regularly with the 797/823's
 
So, in someone else's system could the 797/823 combo be a little too much? Could the  pendulum swing too far over to the etched, clinical electron microscope side of things? Sure it could... particularly if you have not addressed the treble gremlins that I have described above. Not to worry, the 823's will only set you back about $13 and you can try the opa2604's and a whole host of others in its place.

 

[jjkes]

I agree 100% with you Stuart. Different strokes for different folks and different systems. For me personally I never got along with power conditioners. They seem to drain all the dynamics out of the music. I Prefer to run a dedicated AC line if possible. I also prefer Soundquest Isolpads over spikes or cones. They seem to give a larger soundstage. But then again that's in my system. That's half the fun of this hobby. Fine tuning until you get a sound that you like not what some reviewer likes. You have to experiment and then just sit back and listen to the music.

 

[olek]

Agreed, tastes differ.
 
For me, I was about to sell my H10, since its sound was not really doing it for me anymore, it was falling into "no man's land" between BH Crack and DACMini and I just was not using it, since it always felt to me like H10 was losing too much of musicality of Crack without gaining much precision of DACMini.
 
Getting 797 changed that dramatically. Now I see H10 amp more as a (slightly) tweaked DACMini, with just a little warmth and musicality added to its precise, but dry sound.
 
Ain't selling H10 just yet

 
I will try 823 eventually, but if it takes sound too much in direction of 'dry', I am likely to revert that. But who knows, my taste have evolved/changed significantly in last year, it may/will change again. And, with my damaged hearing, harsher treble may not be noticeable if it is sufficiently high

 
For now, I admit that DACMini's presentation is most truthful and detailed, but somehow music is losing its appeal with it. BH Crack is most definitely not as precise and 'correct', but somehow it conveys emotions/texture so much better. And H10 is in between - but somehow before the mod it was taking on too much of shortcomings from both sides... and now it feels like it takes on more strength from both sides. I know, it is all wishy-washy, and subjective, but somehow I do not feel disappointed anymore switching from Crack to H10 - it is just a bit different kind of sound, but equally good to my ears.
 
That is how I hear it. I am sure that there will be plenty of people with genuinely different experiences. After all, not only our ears are all different, but our hearing is conditioned differently. Reminds me of a story of one guy that was stuck in the basement of a radio company sorting through and cataloguing (vinyl) records of Gregorian Chant for couple weeks. Then he walked in the office of his colleague and gasped - 'what is that cacophony you are listening to'? I turned out to be J.S. Bach 

Its just that his sense of musical aesthetics got totally reset during couple weeks spent listening to monks chanting...

 

[mmlogic]

Just received an email from Bruson Audio says their new generation SS op-amp is coming, 30% smaller and less power hunger.
and Gustard H10 owners we'll be offered 20% introductory promotional discount.
 

 

[GioF71]

Hello @mmlogic, very interesting news.
But there is still no info on their website, am I right?
 
Thanks!
 

  Just received an email from Bruson Audio says their new generation SS op-amp is coming, 30% smaller and less power hunger.
and Gustard H10 owners we'll be offered 20% introductory promotional discount.
 

 

[tretneo]

  Just received an email from Bruson Audio says their new generation SS op-amp is coming, 30% smaller and less power hunger.
and Gustard H10 owners we'll be offered 20% introductory promotional discount.
 

 
I received the email as well since I was one of those folks who took advantage of their H10 promotion a couple of months ago. One thing that caught my attention was regarding how "power hungry" the Gen 4 SS Op-Amps are. The wording got me wondering if it has somehow gotten back to Burson that the Gen 4 Op-Amps aren't a good fit for the H10 after all or if this is just trying to promote the advances in Gen 5. I'll quote the relevant portions below:
 

 As you know, the Gen 4 SS Op-Amp didn't really fit the Gustard units.  It was a little too big and it was a little too power hungry for the Gustard.
 
The Gen 5 is 30% smaller and 3 times less power hungry.  It fits into your Gustard units perfectly as since it is less power hungry, it reaches peak performance with less voltage and current draw.  The bottomline is that it sounds even better than our Gen 4.

 
Either way, I do know the heat production has gone way up since installing the Gen 4 SS Op-Amps. I'm sure the new version will help with that. I haven't seen much discussion here about the pairing, still curious to see what others think.

 

[genclaymore]

  Just received an email from Bruson Audio says their new generation SS op-amp is coming, 30% smaller and less power hunger.
and Gustard H10 owners we'll be offered 20% introductory promotional discount.
 

Looks like they been playing way too much Tetris with the way they designed that. I hope it isn't huge other wise your gonna be playing it as you try to slide that into the gustard H10 trying to make it fit.

 

[BassDigger]

 
I received the email as well since I was one of those folks who took advantage of their H10 promotion a couple of months ago. One thing that caught my attention was regarding how "power hungry" the Gen 4 SS Op-Amps are. The wording got me wondering if it has somehow gotten back to Burson that the Gen 4 Op-Amps aren't a good fit for the H10 after all or if this is just trying to promote the advances in Gen 5. I'll quote the relevant portions below:
 
Either way, I do know the heat production has gone way up since installing the Gen 4 SS Op-Amps. I'm sure the new version will help with that. I haven't seen much discussion here about the pairing, still curious to see what others think.

 
You're right. I don't recall so much input about the sound of the Bursons.
 
Has anyone done any comparisons with integrated op-amps, such as the AD797?

 

[Rhamnetin]

   
You're right. I don't recall so much input about the sound of the Bursons.
 
Has anyone done any comparisons with integrated op-amps, such as the AD797?

 
I don't think anyone has.  I have seen some comments about the Burson opamps in the H10, and it's said to be very detailed and analytical. 

 

[tretneo]

   
You're right. I don't recall so much input about the sound of the Bursons.
 
Has anyone done any comparisons with integrated op-amps, such as the AD797?

 
I have the Bursons and just ordered a pair of AD797s from digi-key (I hear they're reputable, no fakes... any conflicting experiences?) so I'd be happy to report my impressions once I give them a good listen.