GUSTARD H10 High-current Discrete Class A output Stage Headphone Amplifier

[stuartmc]

  stuart, looking forward to your ongoing review of the 797BRZs as compared to the 797ANZ

Now this is a subject I'm kind of jazzed about.   I looked at the spec sheet of the BRZ's as compared to the ANZ's and yes, there are some differences.  I'm no electrical engineer so those differences really meant nothing to me and I had assumed that the differences would be inaudible in the H10.  I bought a set from Analog Metric in Hong Kong on a lark to see if the anecdotal accounts of the BRZ sounding better were true.  Well, shiver me timbers, it IS true, at least to these ears.
 
I will assume that I got the real article from Analog Metric, because these BRZ's sound incredibly good.  I  tend to hear and differentiate soundstage and imaging characteristics more than anything else, and this is apparently right in the BRZ's wheelhouse.   There is a quite noticeable increase in the overal size of the stage -width and depth, and there is increased separation of all images. This was unmistakable for me.  I have some very familiar high res tracks that I use - mostly Chesky Binaural stuff -   and I was immediately struck by how much bigger and more 3D everything was.  The tonal balance is very similar to the ANZ's, but I would have to say that the BRZ's exhibit a more delicate and relaxed top end.  Just as much extension with a little less sibilance on the vocal parts that are often slightly annoying.   Since a direct A/B comparison wasn't possible, I am a little less solid on the top end comparison than I am on the soundstage and imaging.
 
When I installed the BRZ's, I was a little concerned that the adapters they are fitted on have eight pin ends sticking up above the tiny BRZ chip (and I do mean "tiny"..they are less than half the size of the ANZ's). These looked like little emi/rfi antennas to me, so I carefully covered the chips and antennas with some 3M AB5100s. I also took the opportunity to treat the sockets with some Stabilant 22 to insure an optimal electrical contact.  I'm so pleasantly surprised by the BRZ's performance, that now I'm thinking about trying the dual 797BRZ's in place of the AD823.
 
http://www.analogmetric.com/goods.php?id=2031  

 

[stuartmc]

  It's not so much having an axe to grind, more that I think there's stigma against speaking up against woo & snake oil, and an associated component of social ostracisation. I think it should be normal & even welcomed behaviour to bring the full force of critical skepticism to the table when discussing gear, and I'd much rather not have the threat of social shaming (or "keel-hauling" as you sort-of-but-not-really jokingly put it). If people are afraid to have their own or others' feelings hurt by criticism, it can lead to an environment where people feel like being critical is frowned upon. I think this is unhealthy.
 
I think it's good to be critical of opinions and claims. Discussions will stagnate if criticism is suppressed and I hope you can try to see the benefit of it, despite being the subject of criticism yourself in this case. It's not personal, I would have made the same comments had you been anyone else.
 
So I will continue to call bullsh** when I see it, and I hope others will do the same. Mostly I hope people do their own reading & research and come to informed conclusions that don't rely solely on trust and reputation.

No worries 'Mate.  I enjoy a good debate and objective criticism. My apologies if my form of humor made you feel the way you have described - it was not my intent.  I never object to the subject matter of disagreements or debate, just the tone.  I really don't take myself or this hobby too seriously.

 

[spaech]

  No worries 'Mate.  I enjoy a good debate and objective criticism. My apologies if my form of humor made you feel the way you have described - it was not my intent.  I never object to the subject matter of disagreements or debate, just the tone.  I really don't take myself or this hobby too seriously.

All good. One thing I would be super curious about would be to see you do a blind test of a lot of your gear: power cables, vibration pads, emf shielding, power conditioning, and of course the quantum stuff. I'm not sure if that interests you, but it'd be cool to see if any of that gear translates to noticeable differences in audio reproduction under controlled conditions. I guess that'd be a topic for another thread though.

 

[BassDigger]

@stuartmc
I really was (half) joking, with my original comment! Although I admit totally being foxed by your switch to to sarcasm. Until I reread.
But it seems that I may have been on to something.
Anyway, some OT is fine, for me (as long as it's not dacs ). And I totally agree with Spaech's general point. I just think that maybe it's a topic for another thread, if we're going to discuss your historical conduct.

I'm verrrrry interested in these BRZs! Your description suggests that they may be a little easier on the ear than the ANZ. So, what might they do in place of the 823s?

Incidentally, with the upgraded op-amps, how would you rate the H10, in ultimate terms? What kind of 'off the shelf', brand name amp would it be best compared to?

 

[olek]

In the interest of science I would like to mention that captain's experiment was not entirely clean. At the same time as replacing ANZ with BRZ, some 3M AB5100s was added and contacts were treated with Stabilant 22. What if sonic effects were caused more by the side treatment than a swap itself? Chances of that are pretty low, but they are not zero.
 
Also, putting aside blind tests, in my current opinion AB tests are a bit too subjective, and ABAB tests are much more reliable. But who would want to open their amp multiple times for one test?

 
For now I am very happy with ANZs. H10 reigns again as a preferred amp in my stable. But it is good to know that when upgradeitis itch kicks in, there are simple 'topical' treatments available.

 

 

[stuartmc]

In the interest of science I would like to mention that captain's experiment was not entirely clean. At the same time as replacing ANZ with BRZ, some 3M AB5100s was added and contacts were treated with Stabilant 22. What if sonic effects were caused more by the side treatment than a swap itself? Chances of that are pretty low, but they are not zero.

Also, putting aside blind tests, in my current opinion AB tests are a bit too subjective, and ABAB tests are much more reliable. But who would want to open their amp multiple times for one test? :tongue_smile:

For now I am very happy with ANZs. H10 reigns again as a preferred amp in my stable. But it is good to know that when upgradeitis itch kicks in, there are simple 'topical' treatments available.  

Good point. It wasn't a "completely" clean AB. It was close though. I had AB5100s on top of of the ANZ's too. I thought I should mention it in the BRZ application because of the funky pins sticking up on the adaptor. The adapter itself is a variable that may effect how clean the comparison is. Stabilant 22 (which was the active ingredient in "Tweak" years back) has never significantly effected soundstage and imaging in my experience with many applications. But hey, you never know.

 

[mandrake50]

Good point. It wasn't a "completely" clean AB. It was close though. I had AB5100s on top of of the ANZ's too. I thought I should mention it in the BRZ application because of the funky pins sticking up on the adaptor. The adapter itself is a variable that may effect how clean the comparison is. Stabilant 22 (which was the active ingredient in "Tweak" years back) has never significantly effected soundstage and imaging in my experience with many applications. But hey, you never know.

Hey Cap, where did you get the EMI Absorber AB5100 in a quantity and price that is somewhat reasonable. Looking at the top hits in a search, there is a minimum quantity order from suppliers that is in excess of $1300. I wouldn't mind playing with some, because I do like to tinker. At $1300+ I think I will have to pass.
 
BTW I have a set of the 797BRZ from the same place. I have not yet installed them. Your description is some motivation to get them plugged in and tested.
Thanks!

 

[stuartmc]

Hey Cap, where did you get the EMI Absorber AB5100 in a quantity and price that is somewhat reasonable. Looking at the top hits in a search, there is a minimum quantity order from suppliers that is in excess of $1300. I wouldn't mind playing with some, because I do like to tinker. At $1300+ I think I will have to pass.

BTW I have a set of the 797BRZ from the same place. I have not yet installed them. Your description is some motivation to get them plugged in and tested.
Thanks!

I was looking for the other guy who got them from Analog Metric...and here you are!...cool. By all means, get them installed and give me a sanity check, lol.

There was a guy selling individual 8x10 sheets of 5100S on eBay and he even joined us here and bought the H10. I can't remember his name now. He is no longer selling them and that's a real shame because his price was fantastic. I bought three sheets from him and was able to completely shield the transformers in the H10, amongst other things. I think it is effective enough to give you nearly the equivalent of an outboard power supply.

 

[stuartmc]

@stuartmc
I really was (half) joking, with my original comment! Although I admit totally being foxed by your switch to to sarcasm. Until I reread.
But it seems that I may have been on to something.
Anyway, some OT is fine, for me (as long as it's not dacs

). And I totally agree with Spaech's general point. I just think that maybe it's a topic for another thread, if we're going to discuss your historical conduct.

My "historical conduct" is boring as heck, and not worthy of another thread.

   The only part that is germane to the ongoing Gustard discussions, is the fact that I completely left the field of high-fi journalism and did not write a thing or participate on any forums for nearly 15 years.  The primary reason for the hiatus was my displeasure with the haughty, obsessive compulsive nature of many people that I dealt with coupled with runaway pricing that made it very difficult for average people to truly enjoy the hobby.  My return has been in baby steps and started right here on head-fi with the people on this very thread.  Decent headphone audio has been way more affordable ( I started with a Fio X1 and Havi B3's!) and the people have been gracious and just plain fun. The emphasis for me is on the FUN part.  I'm having my own personal journey of discovery and it's all about my personal enjoyment.  Sharing that journey with others of like mind seems to add to my pleasure. I don't wish to shape opinions, manipulate my status, or get into lengthy debates that kill my fun buzz.  The whole silly Capt. Guinea Pig of the SS Gustard thing has evolved naturally and is hopefully self-deprecating enough to keep me, and those I interact with, from becoming dreaded Hi-fi Pharisees. 
 

I'm verrrrry interested in these BRZs! Your description suggests that they may be a little easier on the ear than the ANZ. So, what might they do in place of the 823s?

Incidentally, with the upgraded op-amps, how would you rate the H10, in ultimate terms? What kind of 'off the shelf', brand name amp would it be best compared to?

 
My comments above should make it easier for me to answer this.  I really don't know what they will do, or sound like in place of the 823s. If in dual mode the 797BRZ's  sound like they do in single mode, I think there is a good chance that they would sound better to me than the 823s. Since I'm such a soundstage/imaging whore, perhaps I can go even further in the same direction the single BRZ's have taken me.
 
Since all my past experience with amplifiers has been in my downstairs listening room with full size loudspeakers, I can't give you any good examples of headphone amps that compare to the sound I'm getting now with the H10.  In the headphone category, I have only listened to the amp section of the Aune S16, the Ifi Ican and a small portable SMSL amp.  None of these compare at all with the H10.  I have auditioned and reviewed non-headphone amps of all powers and topologies and know the kind of sound I like, but it wouldn't be very helpful to say for instance that the H10 reminds me of the Blue Circle BC2's ..ha ha, and despite the years and the death of many brain cells, it actually does.  That was a hybrid 6SN7tube/bipolar transistor monoblock that I had in the summer of 1996.  It hit all my hot buttons and I guess the reason I'm reminded of it is because in the headphone arena, the H10, as currently configured, does too. http://www.bluecircle.com/page135.html  ....This was the only place I could find my old review of the BC-2 and unfortunately, it has no paragraph breaks.  It looks like one huge run-on sentence.

 

[olek]

 I thought I should mention it in the BRZ application because of the funky pins sticking up on the adaptor.

 
 
Thank you for clarifying!
 
BTW - for those that would like H10's sound in a more portable setup, I finally had good luck with Apogee Groove. DAC is performing almost on the level of DACMini, and based on my (unreliable) memory a step above original Bifrost, which is minor miracle in itself. Amp section creates H10-like sound with IEMs - warm and musical. With 300 Ohm HD600 Groove is starting to obviously lose its stance and grain is finding its way into sound, but still, not bad at all for 'whistle'-sized device. With 600 Ohm DT880 H10 gets definite and clear advantage, but hey, can one really demand from 5V 500ma amp to drive THAT very well? Still drives them loud, just not as clear as stationary setups. Advantage is small size and usb-only power. While it is not advertised to support this particular usage, I was able to plug Groove into my Samsung S5, and with phone in one pocket, DAC in another pocket, was able to walk around my neighbourhood enjoying top-notch sound. Who cares that I looked super-geeky with usb cable in my pant's belt loops?

 
Oh, and almost forgot to mention - both H10 and Groove are pairing exceptionally well with Hifiman RE-600 IEMs, with H10 having an edge of course. Very undervalued phones in my experience - they sound very sad when driven by lesser gear (cough, cough, smartphones), but they wake up and stand their ground when driven by something more capable. Extremely revealing as well - I found that simply extending their (short-ish) cable with 3.5mm extension altered sound very significantly (belkin cable sounded like crap), and forced me to get better extension cable. Unfortunately, majority of people reviewing IEMs only test them with smartphones, and that gives phones like those a bad rep.
 
There you go, whole bunch of OT, but all of it somehow tied in with H10

 

[stuartmc]

  I was able to plug Groove into my Samsung S5, and with phone in one pocket, DAC in another pocket, was able to walk around my neighbourhood enjoying top-notch sound. Who cares that I looked super-geeky with usb cable in my pant's belt loops?

 
 

 
Outstanding. I'm getting quite the mental image right now.... but of course it didn't really happen unless there's a picture. 

   Take one for the swabbies...c'mon, I know you want to.

 

[tretneo]

Hey Cap'n, I wanted to get your honest opinion of discrete Op Amps. I haven't looked to hard but don't recall you discussing them much if at all.
 
I bought the Burson 4th Gen SS set a month or so ago and have been using those daily since then. Last week I ordered the AD797/AD823 (ANZ) combo via Digi-Key and have about 50 hours on them so far, I'm looking forward to giving them an in-depth listen. Do you have any advice on what I should listen for / focus on to pinpoint differences in these setups?

 

[MLegend]

Hello everyone! I just want to thank you all for discussing,in great detail, and reviewing the Gustard H10.You persuaded me fairly quickly haha. I am now an owner of the amp thanks to pollychen0306 who was extremely helpful and had no issues answering questions about the amp or shipping. Definitely recommend ordering from them.
 
I am using PM3s and a  Mad dog 3.2 at the moment until I can get a pair of paradox slants. If anyone wants to know how those two pair just let me know and i'll do my best to describe how they sound, though the H10 has only been burning in for about 20hrs so the amp might not be fully showing itself considering how many of you guys have said it really does need a lot of burn in.
 
I do have one question though for anyone who wants to answer. I am using an ODAC RevB with my H10 and it sounds.......well it works haha. It sounds pretty good, however, I am coming straight from my onboard sound on an Asus Z97-A so I would assume any plain old dac would be better. 
 
I was curious to know if anyone has this same paring or has had it before and what they think of it. Is there anything that would be worth spending money on to give the H10 better performance? I'm not looking for a new dac right now since I literally JUST got both amp and dac in like 3 days ago so I don't need to buy anything for awhile. Any thoughts or recommendations are appreciated.
 
Also....is there anything about impedance matching or pairing I should know about when using unbalanced. It says ODAC is 100k output and H10 input is 68k. Are there specific loads I should be matching for the best performance or does that not really matter. Thank you again for the discussion.

 

[stuartmc]

Hey Cap'n, I wanted to get your honest opinion of discrete Op Amps. I haven't looked to hard but don't recall you discussing them much if at all.

I bought the Burson 4th Gen SS set a month or so ago and have been using those daily since then. Last week I ordered the AD797/AD823 (ANZ) combo via Digi-Key and have about 50 hours on them so far, I'm looking forward to giving them an in-depth listen. Do you have any advice on what I should listen for / focus on to pinpoint differences in these setups?

I haven't tried any discreet op-amps, so I'm not qualified to give a personal opinion. I suspect that they would provide yet another "flavor" that some might prefer. The EE's out there will say that there is really no reason at all that discreet would be better. In fact, I've read some opinions that the compact design of op-amps has some advantages. There are many things I hear that don't fit the pure objectivist paradigm, so I keep an open mind (and ears) on this stuff. I would love to try the Bursons.

Your second question is really great and I want to share my thoughts on it in much more depth than I might ordinarily. Right now I'm sipping a fine whiskey and watching football with friends whilst attempting to write coherent sentences on my cell phone.. I think maybe I should wait till I get home.

 

[tretneo]

I haven't tried any discreet op-amps, so I'm not qualified to give a personal opinion. I suspect that they would provide yet another "flavor" that some might prefer. The EE's out there will say that there is really no reason at all that discreet would be better. In fact, I've read some opinions that the compact design of op-amps has some advantages. There are many things I hear that don't fit the pure objectivist paradigm, so I keep an open mind (and ears) on this stuff. I would love to try the Bursons.

Your second question is really great and I want to share my thoughts on it in much more depth than I might ordinarily. Right now I'm sipping a fine whiskey and watching football with friends whilst attempting to write coherent sentences on my cell phone.. I think maybe I should wait till I get home.

 
Understood, thank you for relaying what you've read on the matter. PM me, perhaps I can loan you my Burson set while I'm giving the 797/823 combo some extended ear-time. This way you can give them a try and provide the community here with your first-hand impressions
 
Ah, sounds like a lovely way to spend a Sunday!