GUSTARD DAC-R26 Balanced Decoder R2R+1Bit Dual Native Decoding Music Bridge
Feb 25, 2023 at 9:04 PM Post #4,726 of 8,835
Hello all,

Its been fascinating wading through a 300+ page topic on what seems like a pretty special DAC and I was hoping someone could assist with a couple of technical(ish) questions re the R26 DAC

So my understanding of r2r dacs are that bit wise they’re limited due to the technical challenges of getting precise resistors above 20 bits, I believe the higher end denafrips as well as the HOLOs are 24 bit DACs. Firstly I, for the life of me cannot find the bit rate of the R26 even though I’m sure I used to see 20+1 bit (the plus one being the DSD Processor) in the marketing description. Can someone confirm.

Secondly provided the r26 is a 20 bit DAC and I’m listening to music at a 24 or 32 bit rate I’m assuming those additional bits when played on a 20 bit track are just ignored. Is that correct? What affect does that usually have on the music? Is the information carried in those last 4 or 12 bits superfluous to the music and the most important bits of information are in the first 20 or 16 bits?

Thanks everyone
Your understanding is solid. There is alot to go into here, but I’ll attempt to give you a solid short answer.
Converting the signal to noise ratio of the R26, we land at about 16bit.
So when you listen to a 24bit or 32bit resolution track, those remaining bits are truncated (quantization noise), then noise shaped to the higher frequencies outside of the audible band.

It’s important to know that bit depth is about noise. The difference between bit depths is not the accuracy of a waveform, but the limit before digital noise interferes with the signal. You can’t hear a difference in bit depths themselves. What you hear is less noise from the higher bit rate.

In the analog world, a 22bit depth exceeds the capabilities of the best audio A/D and D/A converters as well as human hearing.
A snr of 120db equals 20bits. Some of the best equipment is barely capable of 16bit. The second best measured DAC ever on ASR was the Gustard x26 with a snr of 122db.

Where these higher rates come into play is in the digital realm. A 32bit signal sent to a Dac (like the R26) first hits oversampling, interpolation and the digital filters. The higher digital bit rate can help these processors by preventing noise due to roundoff errors (quantization noise)
Does it?
Turn on NOS on the R26, bypass all the filters and hear the difference.
 
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Feb 25, 2023 at 10:10 PM Post #4,727 of 8,835
Your understanding is solid. There is alot to go into here, but I’ll attempt to give you a solid short answer.
Converting the signal to noise ratio of the R26, we land at about 17bit.
So when you listen to a 24bit or 32bit resolution track, those remaining bits are truncated (quantization noise), then noise shaped to the higher frequencies outside of the audible band.

It’s important to know that bit depth is about noise. The difference between bit depths is not the accuracy of a waveform, but the limit before digital noise interferes with the signal. You can’t hear a difference in bit depths themselves. What you hear is less noise from the higher bit rate.

In the analog world, a 22bit depth exceeds the capabilities of the best audio A/D and D/A converters as well as human hearing.
A snr of 120db equals 20bits. Some of the best equipment is barely capable of 16bit. The second best measured DAC ever on ASR was the Gustard x26 with a snr of 122db.

Where these higher rates come into play is in the digital realm. A 32bit signal sent to a Dac (like the R26) first hits oversampling, interpolation and the digital filters. The higher digital bit rate can help these processors by preventing noise due to roundoff errors (quantization noise)
Does it?
Turn on NOS on the R26, bypass all the filters and hear the difference.

camrector, thank you so much. That's helped me understand the whole digital realm so much better. You've alleviated my concerns re the R26 and how it would handle higher bit rate files. I've organised a comparison at my local dealer between the A26 and the R26 and will definitely remember to ask them to switch between NOS and OS modes on the R26. Cheers mate
 
Feb 25, 2023 at 10:39 PM Post #4,728 of 8,835
I recently got into HQPlayer for first time with the Gustard R26. Figured I would share my thoughts after a couple days for people new to this or people that want to try something different. This is in regards to my recommended PCM settings as I haven't tried DSD yet.

Gustard R26 Setting: Make sure PCM Nos is turned on in settings
HQPlayer Settings:
Dac Bits: 16 - based on what Jussi said about this DAC in November. Should give us plenty of dynamic range in audio band with high rate and noise shaper designed for this purpose. Jussi did say still has to measure it on test bench at some point - not sure if Jussi did that yet. Let me know if someone knows different. Thanks!
Default Output Mode: PCM
PCM Defaults Filter:
Non Orchestra music filter: poly-sinc-gauss - incredible layering/depth to soundstage and clarity.
Orchestra music filter: poly-sinc-ext2 - more dynamic and emotional.
Orchestra music filter: sinc-M - easier to listen to, great soundstage.
Note: I haven't tested Jazz yet.
Dither: TPDF
Sample Rate Limit: 768k
Vol Min: -60dB, Vol Max: -3dB

I can't believe how good this sounds so far for the music I've tested so far. It really does matter to pick different filters based on genre imo at least when it comes to orchestra. These settings are after reading multiple posts from others and trying a bunch of things last couple days. I didn't test everything so take this with a grain of salt. Also of course, I wouldn't be surprised if this depends on headphones/audio setup people have. Just wanted to share what I think so far in case someone else falls in love like I did.
 
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Feb 25, 2023 at 11:11 PM Post #4,729 of 8,835
I recently got into HQPlayer for first time with the Gustard R26. Figured I would share my thoughts after a couple days for people new to this or people that want to try something different. This is in regards to my recommended PCM settings as I haven't tried DSD yet.

Gustard R26 Setting: Make sure PCM Nos is turned on in settings
HQPlayer Settings:
Dac Bits: 16 - based on what Jussi said about this DAC in November. Should give us plenty of dynamic range in audio band with high rate and noise shaper designed for this purpose. Jussi did say still has to measure it on test bench at some point - not sure if Jussi did that yet. Let me know if someone knows different. Thanks!
Default Output Mode: PCM
PCM Defaults Filter:
poly-sinc-ext2 - for non orchestra music.
sinc-M - for orchestra music. Note: I haven't tested Jazz yet.
Dither: LNS15
Sample Rate Limit: 768k
Vol Min: -60dB, Vol Max: -3dB

I can't believe how good this sounds so far for the music I've tested so far. It really does matter to pick different filters based on genre imo at least when it comes to orchestra. These settings are after reading multiple posts from others and trying a bunch of things last couple days. I didn't test everything so take this with a grain of salt. Also of course, I wouldn't be surprised if this depends on headphones/audio setup people have. Just wanted to share what I think so far in case someone else falls in love like I did.
Dude you read my mind!
I’ve spent all day setting this up too.
I’m very close to your settings as well.
 
Feb 25, 2023 at 11:23 PM Post #4,730 of 8,835
Dude you read my mind!
I’ve spent all day setting this up too.
I’m very close to your settings as well.
Try poly sinc gauss hi res and sinc l and m. They sound v good to my ears in pcm and dsd. Dsd direct on is also excellent for dsd 512 upsampling
 
Feb 26, 2023 at 4:00 AM Post #4,731 of 8,835
camrector, thank you so much. That's helped me understand the whole digital realm so much better. You've alleviated my concerns re the R26 and how it would handle higher bit rate files. I've organised a comparison at my local dealer between the A26 and the R26 and will definitely remember to ask them to switch between NOS and OS modes on the R26. Cheers mate
You need the unit on the loan for a week or two. Delta-Sigma type attract users with clean details, but these are artificial efects of noise shaping with dominant tones cleaned up, on expense of what happening during fast transients. It can lead to a reproducing subtle false harmonics and this is what cause fatigue in our brain over extended listening session. We frequently don't realise such change, but we reach for the stop button when it happen.

On the other side R2R DAC carries transitions instantly, harmonics are coherent over wide range of frequencies, instantly noticed in the top frequency range. However the entire soundscape can be blocked in our brain if you don't attend live performance regularly. It needs a time to detoxify, it can be a week. Also the amplification is critical. What sounds good with a smoothed sound of DS DAC it may not give maximum performance with R2R DAC, expecially in NOS mode. For example a popular nested-feedback amps like thx 789 show their limitations. Check what amps dealer have, request for a demonstration for non-feedback class A amp or a tube amp.
 
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Feb 26, 2023 at 4:26 AM Post #4,732 of 8,835
You need the unit on the loan for a week or two. Delta-Sigma type attract users with clean details, but these are artificial efects of noise shaping with dominant tones cleaned up, on expense of what happening during fast transients. It can lead to a reproducing subtle false harmonics and this is what cause fatigue in our brain over extended listening session. We frequently don't realise such change, but we reach for the stop button when it happen.

On the other side R2R DAC carries transitions instantly, harmonics are coherent over wide range of frequencies, instantly noticed in the top frequency range. However the entire soundscape can be blocked in our brain if you don't attend live performance regularly. It needs a time to detoxify, it can be a week. Also the amplification is critical. What sounds good with a smoothed sound of DS DAC it may not give maximum performance with R2R DAC, expecially in NOS mode. For example a popular nested-feedback amps like thx 789 show their limitations. Check what amps dealer have, request for a demonstration for non-feedback class A amp or a tube amp.

Thanks sajunky will do. There's a few Class A SET amps I'm looking at currently and will definitely ask the dealer to test with one. Good thing is they have quite a few tube amps on sale so shouldn't be too difficult. Unsure whether a weeks loan would viable with these guys but I still see a decent amount of live shows and have been surrounded by musos and their instruments for most of my life. Im hoping a one off test will be enough for me to detect the differences between the two
 
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Feb 26, 2023 at 7:02 AM Post #4,733 of 8,835
The difference between the internal clock of the R26 and the LHY OCK-1 is best heard when playing the piano. The internal clock gives a slight ringing of the piano, an unnatural sustain, as if the tones are thickened and last longer. With an external clock, the piano sounds perfect.
Thanks for the recommendations.
 
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Feb 26, 2023 at 1:18 PM Post #4,734 of 8,835
I got my mesh system. Anyone having internet issues. - I strongly recommend a mesh wifi system (of course you need to have the speed coming into the home to start). This thing is incredible night and day difference.

So I have my laptop and Gustard R26 connected to one of the mesh things with lan seperately. I haven't done any of the fancy cleanup cable work or even paid attention to what Lan cables I'm using yet. What I do know is - I was having random pops in my music upscaling through hqplayer with USB to the Gustard. So I wonder if it was a limitation of my usb cable or the usb implantation on the dac or how apple talked to the usb hub thing. Either way, it's so nice to get rid of the pops, I have the upscaling working like it should. : )
 
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Feb 26, 2023 at 10:09 PM Post #4,735 of 8,835
With regards to HQPlayer, I have had good results with upsampling to DSD512 [DSD Direct OFF].
Currently trying out PCM and taking notes on how it compares with DSD. I like the sound stage and 3D nature of the PCM but the DSD512 seems to have a bit more slam or texture with certain songs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Again, thanks to all the helpful folks here going the extra mile with friendly advice and suggestions. Cheers!
 
Feb 27, 2023 at 5:51 AM Post #4,737 of 8,835
The difference between the internal clock of the R26 and the LHY OCK-1 is best heard when playing the piano. The internal clock gives a slight ringing of the piano, an unnatural sustain, as if the tones are thickened and last longer. With an external clock, the piano sounds perfect.

Thats interesting. EE design says a clock should be as close to the DA as possible, ie internal. If an external clock is better, an EE might say Gustard really messed up the design. That could put a lot of potential buyers off. Gustard must hate this thread:
  • humming transformers
  • buzzing display
  • firmware updating debacle
  • internal clock deficiencies
Are we all meant to be beta testers?
 
Feb 27, 2023 at 6:23 AM Post #4,739 of 8,835
Are we all meant to be beta testers?

Aside from the usual variables: time, budget, market, available resources, competition, company philosophy etc. Bare in mind how saturated it is at this price bracket by various Chinese brands (Topping, SMSL, Matrix, Shanling, Quloong..or anything "Shenzen" :upside_down: ). And in China, where copying and reverse engineering are not only normal but a science and an art. Therefore I think its understood there will be hiccups along the way, especially their first try integrating a streamer on their DACs. Rest assured other Chi-Fi brands will follow suit (except for Matrix). But for now, as shown by the results, their gamble paid off.
 
Feb 27, 2023 at 10:22 AM Post #4,740 of 8,835
The beta tester line I think is a bit harsh. I have zero problems with the DAC so far connected to my mesh unit with Lan. I did have some issues with USB, but I'm guessing that is a problem on my usb dongle, laptop or OS side as no one else seemed to report that issue I had with pops during upscaling through hqplayer. Basically this DAC is amazing. If there were tons of users reporting issues, I think it would be pretty apparent here. I don't look at firmware updates over time as a negative or beta tester approach. I look at it like a company that cares about making their product as perfect as possible and giving the end user the best experience. I would much rather have that than a company that says - here is our product, see ya later.

Granted, all my testing has been with PCM. How many people have had issues with DSD with latest firmware?
 
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