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Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I understand the logic but it makes almost no sense from a business standpoint, especially when you consider that we are individual people on a forum, not a corporation, business, etc.
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IF you understood the logic, you would understand that from a business standpoint 100 members with money in hand = a corporation or business. Money is money. What a contracting company wants is guaranteed sales for something like this. Money in hand, up front is such a guarantee. I agree with you regarding Grado - they are about the only one I could think of that would consider such an experiment.
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Originally Posted by braillediver /img/forum/go_quote.gif
But there’s no source for high-end headphones to be used with the high-end headphone amps. What are the people using the high-end headphone amps with?
The total number of truly high-end headphones owned worldwide is fixed and diminishing as time goes by. And that number is what (?) 10,000 or less- probably a lot less. Is the proliferation of high-end headphone amps just filling the market need of the current owners of those limited high-end headphones? Does that mean the amp market will cease when the current owners get a nice amp?
If there’s no market for a $2000-$4000 headphone why are amp makers continuing to design and build expensive headphone amps?
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Exactly. Folks are continually throwing money at amps, bigger and badder amps as it were. Save for spending $15k on and amp for R10's...most headphones seem to have awesome partners with much more humble amps...Melos (even Maestrobated) with the HP-1000's, RS-1's with the EAR, PS-1's with Melos or the EAR...nothing breaking $5k USD for Grados is necessary. HD650's seem to have a partner in the upper end Emmeline amps or the Headroom amps not to metion the Headamp ones...save for the balanced Blockhead or new Max, everything is under $5k. I don't know what people are spending their money on or rather, what headphones they are partnering their mega buck amps with save for R10's and HE90's. Still, it is happening and this as Mitch points out, indicates that there is a at least some correlation between folks that have/want pricey amps with those that own/want pricey headphones. By pricey, sadly, I mean the best, because the best costs in this hobby most of the time.
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I don’t know of many or any big manufacturers making high-end headphone amps it’s all the small guys filling the niche. Does this mean only the small guys can take the chance of making a high-end headphone? |
Either they are the only ones filling the niche or the only ones able to, on the fly, address the last 1% that some of the members can afford. Only the likes of Headroom and EAR have a standard $4000 amp as a mainstream player in the market, and only EAR would apply as someone that is outside of "headphones only."
Someone like Mikhail, who hand builds everything can easily throw in exotic parts whereas other folks would have to do redesigns particularly since most other companies are doing solid state. This alone permits the little guy from doing something like this on a case by case basis. Even then, we know that in the past (or present) these one off items have had a hard time reaching their customers in a timely fashion. So even for the little guy, it doesn't seem to be an easy thing to do.
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I think the 2-channel speaker market just starts to get interesting in the $2000 to $5000 range.
For me once I broke through the mental barrier of paying over $1000 for a pair of headphones the benefits became obvious and desirable. The way they scale with system improvements and the subtle nuances in sound with those upgrades was amazing.
People say there is no market for a high end headphone but why is there so many high end headphone amps being developed, made and sold?
I’m just trying to make sense of a senseless market. |
Agreed with speakers and the same goes with headphones. The really interesting headphones are all now at the $1k or above mark. That goes for vintage RS-1's, HP-1000's, PS-1's, the high end Audio Technicas, the top Ultrasones, AKG K1000, Qualias and the R10's. The grand electrostats are all >1.5k. The market is healthy enough to support a small batch of premium headphones. No doubt folks are willing to spend money on the HP-1000's based on sonics and build quality. The PS-1's sell equally as well these days, so there is no reason to think, that for a company like Grado, if they were to release something with the features of the HP-1000's (screws etc) and the sonics of something at least on par with the two, that people would be willing to spend in the 1.5k range, perhaps more depending on the design. As you say Mitch, folks are throwing down the cash on big amps, and they are devouring old classic headphones for outrageous prices. Something that is current and at least as good as the "classics" would do a few things:
1) bring more people into the top tier of the headphone hobby because of the readily available units
2) drive sales of amps
3) drive down prices of older models, which would be a welcomed thing for many.
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Originally Posted by Varma /img/forum/go_quote.gif
How about moving this thread to Headphones Forum instead of Hi-End Forum, so that more people will be aware of this thread.
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Let's keep it in the Hi-End for now, because well, this is about the Hi-end and exactly the reason we made a separate forum. There is no reason however that we couldn't have a sibling thread in the general headphone section polling and linking to this discussion.
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Originally Posted by Beagle /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Which is the equivalent to $50 to $100 range in headphones, as far as sonics go (which is why we're here). The SR60 has as much or more resolution than probably any speaker <$10,000.
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Exactly.
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I'm sure there are audiophile multi-billionaires who'd pay a king's ransom for the perfect loudspeaker if it could be done. But it can't be done. Me, rather than a whole new design, I'd like to have John Grado design a PS-1 with GS1000 drivers that uses the bagel pads. It should clamp a little tighter than the GS1000 and have good weight distribution. I've never been convinced that the mahogany is the best material for all types of music. I think metal (with the isolation provided by bagels) might be it. |
I think this is a good point. At least in terms of a Grado, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, how about improving on it. We know people adore both the HP-1000's and the PS-1's. We know that overall the HP-1000's are the best built headphone ever but we also know that many people appreciate the niceties of the R10's for instance...lamb skin pads, plush, comfy. Trying out something other than the foam pads could be a real winner, of course, given the Grado sound, the foam pads seem to be at least minimally required. Also, as many an R10 owner has discovered, replacing worn R10 pads is very costly. Still, there is no doubt that Metal Grados really garner a lot of fanfare around here, more so than the woodies (though the vintage RS-1's are suddenly on par with the HP-1000's and PS-1's). As such, sticking with a metal design, with screws, leather etc etc, and switching up the drivers may be what people would be willing to shell out 1.5k+ for.
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Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif
start a new thread and link to this one or page 3 of this one, as that's when the discussion started to take place.
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Agreed.
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I actually see it the other way around. think it makes more sense to find out if something like this would even be considered by a manufacturer and if so under what conditions. once you have parameters in place, then it is easier to gauge real interest. |
I don't know if it matters either way. Although, I believe that if we had a sound number with a firm "here's my money, do with it as you please" upfront when first discussing this with manufacturer, it might lend quite a bit more weight to the initial negotiations.
For a company like Grado, they already did the HF-1's, they do the Alessandros and they did the PS-1's. Doing small numbered runs doesn't seem to be outside their realm of possibilities. I do know that the HF-1's were sold at a cost less than the 225's but cost more to make. They also took up quite a bit of the staff's time from their regular orders so this would have to be considered here as well. Time lines would likely need to be pretty flexible and again, some assurance of money upfront would be good. I can't recall if the HF-1's had pre-orders or not, but if they did, was likely the firm reason for going through with the second round which wasn't initially planned.
Regardless of how we go about this, first and foremost, we would need to decide on a manufacturer to approach. Certainly the folks participating in this thread are at least interested in Grados and/or own their top models. Many won't be interested. I don't much care about the overall feel of the membership, and again I wouldn't care if the manufacturer made a mint off a run of the units, so long as there was an initial run of something great where folks were pleased as punch and guaranteed their phones.
I will say that approaching Grado is a more likely bet than any other manufacturer at this time, and if all went well, others might take a keen look at the experiment and go along with future investigations by members.
The key is this...Grado is privately owned, Sennheiser, Sony and perhaps AT are publically traded companies...doing experiments like this are simply not an option without a lot of red tape. My vote would then be to figure out overall interest and approach Grado as they are my rational choice for success on this.