[hottyson]

I can't really say what Grado "needs" to do. However, if they continue to produce the SR-225 and don't raise it's price, what headphone can compete with it sound wise?

For those who cannot afford a Sennheiser HD-6XX and cable upgrade they are left to choose from the Grado SR-225 and the Beyerdynamic DT-880 if they want to stay around a $200 price point. The Beyerdynamic DT-880 is more cumfortable but cost a tiny bit more. The Grado SR-225 gives up comfort but sounds better for most music. Even when the Grado SR-225 is not amplified it regularly sounds better than a Beyerdynamic DT-880 connected to a $500 headphone amplifier.

The Grado SR-225 has value written all over it. A real winner if I ever saw one.

 

[bhd812]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj.9 Cost the Whole business to change or Improve? You must be kidding...... Like I said before, if GRADO put all this work into the “new sr666” and it flopped Grado would probably be in the crapper financially Money goes to R&D, what R&D if your product doesn't change? R&D goes into a lot more then you think, for example something simple like the jacket on their headphone cords. That alone could take months if not years to find the one. Imagine all the jackets they try and try and try and try and try over and over and over just to find the rite one. That alone can cost thousands of dollars…just imagine what a entire headphone with a bunch of different pieces could cost. If they are as you say , then the company is truly doomed and will fail. It can't afford to improve and it can't afford to change. Grado won’t fail anytime soon cause John already saved the company from a bankruptcy earlier on, this guy knows how to give and take. Also every company takes a certain percentage off each product they sell and puts it back into R&D. BMW takes something like 15-20% off each car they sell (company price, not dealer price) and throws it into R&D, which explains why BMW is at the top of their game now. Grado probably puts 1 or 2% back into R&D, but you also have to remember Grado is not selling their stuff to the distributors for retail or what we pay. And also Grado does not sell as many of each product as the bigger boys do. It only bothers me that they have a product with excellent potential and they do little or nothing to improve upon it either by reducing cost or providing a better product. They are working on newer stuff, like the sr-40’s or even the latest ps-1’s. you just don’t see what they are doing, but I assure you they are. "if you look into startin up ur own headphone company and being as small as grado you would look at them in a new respect...atleast for making something that if not totally better but sonicaly on the same level as the big boys. even there lower end stuff is a good bang for the buck as far as comparing to the bigger companies." Check out the guys building headphone amps...You can barely keep up with Xin's changes/improvements and he hasn't been in business for 50 years and I would imagine he is on a tighter budget. Ok your totally thinking something different here.. First xin does not have the amount of overhead that grado does, xin is one man (I believe) grado is the two John’s , 17 other employees, hundreds of parts makers, distributors, entire assembly lines in china, lawyers..a few of them, the headquarter building itself, accountants, and etc. You can take XIN, RAY SAMS, MIKAIL, RUDISTOR, EDDIE CURRENT, AND OTHERS ALIKE and put them together and you still wont have what grado has or what they are. Your thinking two totally different ways of business. Its like comparing the ford motor company to the morgan car company… I don't think they need to make drastic or costly changes. The main complaint I see here at head-fi is comfort and build quality. These two come up in almost every Grado thread. I think these issues cost thsells. Seems that someone from Grado would be checking on the forums here to get a feel for customers likes and dislikes. Or better yet , a Grado rep could stand tall here and answer a question or two. There a small company and this would be a good opportunity for them to put there side of the story out. Maybe they do have a good excuse but I would like to here it from them. Only my opinion. Ok, ducking again...

 

[averydonovan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hottyson The Grado SR-225 has value written all over it. A real winner if I ever saw one.

Definately agree, I loved my SR225.

Grado's headphones have a distinct look and feel that is now Grado's trademark for headphones. Some like them, some don't. The Grado look I think has a rather timeless appeal. Kind of like Beyerdynamic with it's DT770/880/990 which all have a mid-80s look, simply because the DT770 and DT990 were indeed designed in the 80s and the 880 carried on that look. Their look hasn't aged quite as well, but still doesn't look overly dated. Or AKG, who has used the same look for many of its headphones for at least 25 years and that look also has a rather timeless appeal. And each company has its detractors for comfort and durability, too. For example, Beyer's "Pro" models have a vise-grip on your head that for some, even those of us with relatively small heads, find a bit uncomfortable.

Grado and Sennheiser are the most polarizing makers of high-end headphones, and they are also on oppossite sides of the business size scale. Grado is a small company in New York City that has no major operations outside of there. Their products cover a relatively limited market segment targeted to audio enthusiasts and audiophiles. Sennheiser is a vast company with major operations in many countries that targets a huge array of markets, from pro audio to consumer audio and everything in between. AKG and Beyerdynamic are kind of in-between, bigger than Grado but smaller than Sennheiser. Ultrasone may be the only somewhat major headphone manufacturer smaller than Grado, and many of the parts they use can be found on other products from other manufacturers (e.g. the headband on their headphones), while Grado does nearly everything in-house.

Grado seems to be focused on getting the best products they can make in-house (except maybe the SR-40) out to customers, and that has limited their growth but at the same time gave them a devoted following and their small company status has helped there. I read many posts here about a Head-Fi member calling up John Grado on the phone, but I never read anything about someone calling up Sennheiser's, AKG's, or Beyerdynamic's CEO. It seems John Grado wants to expand his market a bit but without selling the soul of his company, something he should be commended for.

 

[MuZI]

I love the way they look, but i hate how their so fragile!

 

[adhoc]

they're not fragile - just poorly built.

the headband on my ms-2 came with glue leaking out of the seams and threads attempting to escape from the stitches!

not bad at all for a $299 dollar 'phone, eh?

 

[kunwar]

there is something that has to be pointed out here.
Grado headphones have been a revealation to me.
Before listening to them, I didn't know music could sound so intimate, so beautiful, just pure magic.
Whatever anyone says, I will not be buying any other brand of headphones or for that matter any other model.
For me it will only be the RS-1/MSPro or the PS-1 from now on.

 

[intlplby]

i think the fact that the company is only 17 people speaks for itself as to why these issues aren't addressed

i have come across very very few small companies with truly talented in house marketing and quality control.

The don't have the structure set-up to really change. I doubt they hire many new people very often. As such I doubt there is anyone there really trained or knowledgeable in better business practices for quality function deployment, structured quality control (e.g. Six Sigma, structured new product development and good marketing techniques.

It sounds like a bunch of people who produce really really good audio, but are fairly clueless about better business practices

there's incredible amounts of room for improvement. They could really benefit from hiring some hotshot business MBA graduate who will also respect the need for superior sound over everything else.

If they hired someone like that today, I would bet you that they could increase profitability 500% in 5 years without comprimising on the Grado look and the grado sound.

At the same time increase the comfort for us and build quality.

They have the pro sound, but their business practices are reak of 'amateur'

 

[iGig]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Permonic You can read more about it: http://www.gradolabs.com/reviews/forbes.htm http://www.gradolabs.com/history.html

Thanks for the links, it was an interesting read. I loved the picture of John with his two sons, maybe the next Grado generation can build my perfect phone.
The iG225 --> thicker foam, less highs and more bass. I’ll check with them in a few years.

No bitter lemonade for me, I don’t want sugar either. Keep those artificial sweeteners away from me and use Splenda: low cal and made from real sugar. I’ll pay extra for being it “specialty”

This is probably not cost effective and there’s not enough demand for it, so that leaves me drinking water, even if it costs as much as lemonade.

 

[Jahn]

let me just say that not all top of the line headphones give you that magical bonding experience the first time you hear them.

of course it depends on the context.

the first time i slapped on a pair of audiophile-quality cans on my head was yesterday, at J&R Music in NYC. big mistake. the Senn 600s i tried on had a broken cable - you had to sort of hold it in place to avoid loss of signal and crackling. plus, some sonys were being overdriven nearby, so the sound bleed into the senn cans was unavoidable. finally, it seemed like the sonys were sucking up all the juice, because the senn 600 was way underpowered - it was barely driven and sounded like a ghostly echo.

did i mention the outside mesh looked like some bum with brass knuckles took a shining to em?

ok, not the most ideal setting. but the headband was also fake green marble plastic, and the overall atmosphere was not a serene one. plus i was wondering how many species of head lice were crawling out of the wrinkled pads into my ear canal and feasting on my wax. not good thoughts while you are trying to listen to the tinny tunes of mauled Mahler.

so i look forward to falling in love with a pair of phones like you folks have. *looks at serviceable ear buds* i can't wait!

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller Just for curiosity, it will be useful to know which other good headphones have you tried before the Grados? Because the same happen to me with the CD3000....and it is not a Grado...

And that is why there exists such a thing as personal preference. Down boy with the thread crapping...

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by intlplby i think the fact that the company is only 17 people speaks for itself as to why these issues aren't addressed i have come across very very few small companies with truly talented in house marketing and quality control. The don't have the structure set-up to really change. I doubt they hire many new people very often. As such I doubt there is anyone there really trained or knowledgeable in better business practices for quality function deployment, structured quality control (e.g. Six Sigma, structured new product development and good marketing techniques. It sounds like a bunch of people who produce really really good audio, but are fairly clueless about better business practices there's incredible amounts of room for improvement. They could really benefit from hiring some hotshot business MBA graduate who will also respect the need for superior sound over everything else. If they hired someone like that today, I would bet you that they could increase profitability 500% in 5 years without comprimising on the Grado look and the grado sound. At the same time increase the comfort for us and build quality. They have the pro sound, but their business practices are reak of 'amateur'

They are indeed a 17 people company, but one company that was founded about 50 years ago, they are not kids, and for sure they know what they are doing about marketing, or they won't survive, they are in bussiness far before those "talented guys", you want they to hire, were in kinder, and they had survived for many years in NY, not in HK, or China, or any other place which labor is cheaper, and even with an expensive labor, they are still there, so please do not underestimate their marketing practices. IMO they base their practices in an old fashion family way, but it had worked for them for 50 years....

BTW I do not consider their marketing practices amateur at all, I feel they could and need to improve their QC, as many had stated, and maybe the look, if they want to be at the same level of bigger companies, but they have their place in the audio market, established for years and years, and I think they will keep on selling unless the audio quality decline, which I seriously doubt....if one thing they know, is how to make this things sound good...

 

[Edwood]

Oh, c'mon, he hasn't fully shoved the CD3K's down his throat yet.

My headphone journey was not linear with one company. I went from HD600 to Ety's to K1000, to R10.

I just don't happen to like Grados. And I have listened to them all.

Although admittingly, I would probably like the SR60's for work headphones as my "cheap" pair that I don't mind using and abusing. Although, the lack of ergonomics and ancient sliding post hangers design of the Grados doesn't do it for me. Plus I wear glasses so, I would have to stretch the headband to the point that they would just fall off my head if I move it.
But they are more "stealthy" looking. Heheh, I would get alot of strange looks wearing my K1000's or R10's at work.

But the HP1000's are pretty to look at. I like the shiny........

-Ed

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood Oh, c'mon, he hasn't fully shoved the CD3K's down his throat yet.

No sorry this was not my intention at all, and sorry not thread crapping intended here, it was just an example, but sorry to be repetitive...LOL...

But anyway, nevermind, I will go with my music to another place now.....

 

[intlplby]

Quote:

They are indeed a 17 people company, but one company that was founded about 50 years ago, they are not kids, and for sure they know what they are doing about marketing, or they won't survive, they are in bussiness far before those "talented guys", you want they to hire, were in kinder, and they had survived for many years in NY, not in HK, or China, or any other place which labor is cheaper, and even with an expensive labor, they are still there, so please do not underestimate their marketing practices. IMO they base their practices in an old fashion family way, but it had worked for them for 50 years....

the marketing somewhat non-existent...... you really only find grados in audio specialty stores.... i can't think of any major chains that carry them where i live.....

there is one store in raleigh that carries them to the best of my knowledge, Audio Advice..... but that is a true hi-fi store (linn, musical fidelity etc)

Definition:
Marketing - delivering customer satisfaction at a profit.

yes they are making a profit, but they could be making a lot more with better marketing.....

4p's of marketing:

Product, Placement, Promotion, Price

They have a great product, but it lacks on some key issues such as comfort and build quality for some of the lower end models.

The placement is limited.... unless you go out looking for grados you probably won't find grados.... it lacks proximity to the customer.... as far as placement in the market... they are very very welled placed in a niche market.

Promotion - also very very limited.... they could do a lot more for promotion...... trunk shows are a good way to promote without losing that personable feeling of a small family owned company....

Price - for the sound you are getting grado's price is unmatched... as someone said the SR225 for sound is an absolute steal..... as far as comfort for price they are hurting...... and as far as build quality for price it's a toss up--- awesome for their high end phones and in the middle for the lower end phones



With the increasing upward mobility of US consumers it behooves Grado to market to luxury consumers, and comfort and build quality are key...... for the first time ever the middle range price points are disappearing (e.g. mid-range dept stores going bankrupt).... most markets only have room left to be profitable at the budget and the luxury price points..... moderate price points are become more and more inexistent in many many markets.....

the number of individuals, couples and families grossing more than $100k a year has never been higher

The hi-fi market really has never been in a better position to attract people with no prior hi-fi experience...

Most people don't get better audio because they've never experienced better audio

you want a great example of premium audio marketing... look at Bose..... Bose isn't great but they are marketing geniuses... grado could go the same route and make $texas, bank, chedda etc

they could do so and keep the same quality and improve..... the only risk they have is getting so overwhelmed that they can't keep up with production (their current production doesn't allow for a lot of growth.

yes they have been in business over 50 years, but they've hit hard times.... they did well in the 80s and hit a slump hard in the early 90s

as far as quality... defects such as stitch problems, leaking glue and other such things should never leave their small factory for headphones in the 150+ range

also regarding the hot shots... i am not talking about audio hotshots, i'm talking about business strategy hot shots, new product development hot shots, quality control hotshots


Since the Japanese automobile first introduced a true quality controll system and applied it later to eletronics you can see the importance of quality..... with methodology such as six sigma you have the tools, techniques and statistical power to mass produce products with a theoretical and realizable goal of JUST OVER 4 DEFECTIVE PRODUCTS PER MILLION...... that is mass production.... if that is possible with mass production it definitely should be possible at a small one building operation........

As far as Quality Function Deployment..... the fact that they don't listen and react to customer complaints about issues that cost them sales shows that they haven't a clue what QFD even is... if they did then these issues would be resolved in many cases before there are even complaints


the business strategies are out there... they aren't being used, most likely because the arent aware of them.....

just look at the top management .... Joe Grado - master watchmater, master headphones maker, master cartrige maker... but he does not have a mastery in better business practices...... (i think he dropped from high school and went to vocational school if i am correct)

same goes for John Grado who has more formal education and probably knows more about business than Joe, but still no real mastery of better business practices......

i would recommend they get someone who knows their stuff ... "always surround yourself with good people." ... john and joe know their audio stuff but they should get someone who knows the business stuff.....the best leaders know when they need to get outside help instead of succumbing to pride.....

they could also go learn these things themselves..... it's not uber-complicated stuff......

i would recommend they read "Design and Marketing of New Products" Glen Urban & John Hauser

the "Art of War" by Sun Tsu isn't a bad read either..... as i rise through the corporate ranks i'm going to require that all my subordinates have read it


just because it has worked for them for 50 years doesn't mean it is the best way or that it will continue to work...... that's a fallacious conclusion

they should adopt a strategy of continuous improvement. - 'adaption'/'evolution'

 

[elnero]

Has it occured to any of you that maybe Grado is reasonably happy with the way things are? Like any other high-end audio manufacturer they have a distributer and dealer network that relies mainly on specialized shops. Trying to go after a chainstore type market opens a whole other can of worms that would require a complete change in not only philosophy but in the product itself. No longer would they be handmade because the manufacturing process would have to be automated which in turn would mean the product itself would have to change to accomodate the change.

Also has it occured to you that maybe there are quite a few people who find Grado's perfectly comfortable? You just don't hear from them because they aren't on here complaining about it. I'm one of those people, I find the RS-1's to be the lightest, most comfortable headphone I've had. I'm also quite taken with the retro styling, it gives it a unique look for a unique product.