[sahmen]

   
Check this out, it's good reading:
 
http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_MP_White_Paper.pdf
 
One of the Grace Design folks linked it a while back on MassDrop. It's not written by them but it might as well have been. It helped me understand what the m9XX filters are "theoretically" doing, even if it's hard to detect by ear. In the document they talk about F1 to F4 in order. After reading it, I settled on F4.

Well, after reading it, the F4 setting seems to be a no-brainer.  Thanks for pointing me to the document.

 

[fjrabon]

 Well, after reading it, the F4 setting seems to be a no-brainer.  Thanks for pointing me to the document.

the thing that white paper fails to mention, which this "white paper" is more of an ad than a white paper, is that the ringing is at the Nyquist frequency, and thus isn't directly audible.  Theoretically in certain systems (especially down line tube amps when the m9xx is being used as a DAC) the nyquist frequency ringing can cause distortion, and thus you'd hear the effects of the ringing even if you don't hear the ringing itself.  However, if you're using the m9XX as both a DAC and amp, this doesn't seem to be an issue.
 
This article talks several times like you can hear the pre and post echo directly, which just isn't true unless you're listening to music with a sample rate below 40kHz.  As the lowest sample rate any of us really listen to music is 44.1 kHz, you can't hear the pre and post echo.  People keep talking like the echoes are echoes in the sense of what we think about when yelling in the woods.  It's more properly called ringing, as it's at a single (inaudible) frequency.  
 
The paper also completely ignores the disadvantages of non-linear phase.  With non-linear phase, the higher frequencies are delayed tiny amounts more than the lower frequencies, which can make for a less powerful sound.  its not that big of a deal, but it's weird that they don/t even mention that, while they harp on pre-ringing like it's audible.
 
Basically with these filters, they attempt to solve two problems if needed: aliasing distortion and intermodulation distortion.  
 
The sharp roll-off filters (F1 & F3) solve issues with aliasing distortion and the minimum phase filters (F3 & F4) solve issues with intermodulation distortion.  If you have neither of those problems F2 is very marginally the best technical performer, as it retains time coherency.  However, you won't hear much of an audible difference between these filters unless you're using them to solve a problem.  If you aren't having aliasing and intermodulation distortion, you won't really hear a major difference. 

 

[Zachik]

m9xx owners - I am surprised no one has asked, yet, so I will:  

I am in the market for a $500 DAC/amp combo, and just by reading - the 2 leading candidates are the m9xx and the new Schiit Joty (with the DAC module).  Both priced at $500.
The Joty is SE and Balanced, but I do not care for balanced.
I am going to connect it to powered speakers (through RCA pre-amp outputs) as well as various headphones (HD600, 400i, m50x, Audeze Sine). No sensitive IEMs.
 
I understand this thread is m9xx-biased, but would still love comparisons to the new Schiit Joty, which on paper seems like a better product (and better value).
 
Thanks in advance!

 

[fjrabon]

m9xx owners - I am surprised no one has asked, yet, so I will:  
I am in the market for a $500 DAC/amp combo, and just by reading - the 2 leading candidates are the m9xx and the new Schiit Joty (with the DAC module).  Both priced at $500.
The Joty is SE and Balanced, but I do not care for balanced.
I am going to connect it to powered speakers (through RCA pre-amp outputs) as well as various headphones (HD600, 400i, m50x, Audeze Sine). No sensitive IEMs.

I understand this thread is m9xx-biased, but would still love comparisons to the new Schiit Joty, which on paper seems like a better product (and better value).

Thanks in advance!

I'll be doing a head to head tomorrow. Will report back. I'm a bit of a crossfeed fanatic so I'd give the m9XX some points on that. If it matters to you, m9XX will also do DSD and accept optical. They're comparable in a lot of ways, but also do different things. Sound quality comparison will be interesting.

 

[Zachik]

I'll be doing a head to head tomorrow. Will report back. I'm a bit of a crossfeed fanatic so I'd give the m9XX some points on that. If it matters to you, m9XX will also do DSD and accept optical. They're comparable in a lot of ways, but also do different things. Sound quality comparison will be interesting.

 
I will definitely look forward to your comparison!
I do not care about DSD - do not have anything in that format  
My setup would be PC->DAC/amp->speakers (RCA) and headphones.
No optical needed in my setup.  USB from PC to DAC/amp.
 
Thanks again, and looking forward to your comparison.

 

[eeagle]

  m9xx owners - I am surprised no one has asked, yet, so I will:  

I am in the market for a $500 DAC/amp combo, and just by reading - the 2 leading candidates are the m9xx and the new Schiit Joty (with the DAC module).  Both priced at $500.
The Joty is SE and Balanced, but I do not care for balanced.
I am going to connect it to powered speakers (through RCA pre-amp outputs) as well as various headphones (HD600, 400i, m50x, Audeze Sine). No sensitive IEMs.
 
I understand this thread is m9xx-biased, but would still love comparisons to the new Schiit Joty, which on paper seems like a better product (and better value).
 
Thanks in advance!

Great conversation starter.
 
Both made in the US and use the same DAC chip the AK4490, the Jotunheim AMP has a good bit more power and can even provide balanced output, but the m9xx manages to drive the high impedance/planar HPs I have fine.  Grace has some nice features, the filters and crossfeed, and they seem to know the AK4490 in depth IMO.
 
I like the modular idea Schiit has come up with too, which sort of future proofs the device at least for a few years  
 
Will be interesting hear from the lucky individuals who have had the pleasure of both.

 

[WilliamLeonhart]

I have not heard the Joty myself but one of the guys I know have bought it and he says the DAC is only comparable to Modi 2. Which is rather not surprising to me because I was quite unhappy with the Bifrost Uber (though not as much as the Bimby) and the Modi2 Uber, while very good for the price, is still leagues behind the Bifrost Uber. The Joty is another example of the "DAC chip is not everything" rule that I have come to realize.

That all said, I would still need to hear the Joty myself.

 

[Psalmanazar]

I have not heard the Joty myself but one of the guys I know have bought it and he says the DAC is only comparable to Modi 2. Which is rather not surprising to me because I was quite unhappy with the Bifrost Uber (though not as much as the Bimby) and the Modi2 Uber, while very good for the price, is still leagues behind the Bifrost Uber. The Joty is another example of the "DAC chip is not everything" rule that I have come to realize.

That all said, I would still need to hear the Joty myself.

Jotun 4490 might be worse than the Modi 2U given that the integrated Jotun DAC is essentially a balanced Fulla. I actually prefer the old Modi 2 Uber with the AK4396 to both the current M2U 4490 and the Bifrost 4490. The AK4396 has a more neutral tonal balance with none of AKM's "Velvet Sound" bloom bs.

The only time I would use an AK4490 based DAC is if I were traveling and then I would get the Grace M9XX simply as it's more transportable. Jotunheim being fed by a better DAC chip like the Schiit multibits, old AKMs, AD1955, WELL-DONE Sabres (not glare filled dongles and the ODAC) will probably just kill the Grace M9XX but each piece of gear fulfills different niches. Actually I would take the old Apogee MiniDAC back when Apogee was actually good over the Grace M9XX for travel but the Grace's amp section is probably better even if the DAC is worse.

 

[Michgelsen]

  Actually I would take the old Apogee MiniDAC back when Apogee was actually good over the Grace M9XX for travel but the Grace's amp section is probably better even if the DAC is worse.

 
While I can't compare the m9xx to the Apogee MiniDAC directly, since I sold the latter a long time ago, I do remember that I found the MiniDAC unimpressive, because it was not an improvement over the CDP I had back then, which was a NAD C542. All equipment I have owned since then, including the m9xx, I find better sounding.

 

[Psalmanazar]

   
While I can't compare the m9xx to the Apogee MiniDAC directly, since I sold the latter a long time ago, I do remember that I found the MiniDAC unimpressive, because it was not an improvement over the CDP I had back then, which was a NAD C542. All equipment I have owned since then, including the m9xx, I find better sounding.

Well yeah the amp in the MiniDAC sucked but the DAC part was excellent and better than the M9XX, which is much better for its intended purpose as a transportable headphone rig. The Apogee MiniDAC was just a feature-filled, transportable AD1955-based pro DAC with some weak amp inside for monitoring with closed studio cans.

 

[Zachik]

I'll be doing a head to head tomorrow. Will report back. I'm a bit of a crossfeed fanatic so I'd give the m9XX some points on that. If it matters to you, m9XX will also do DSD and accept optical. They're comparable in a lot of ways, but also do different things. Sound quality comparison will be interesting.

 
@fjrabon  - did you have the chance (and time) to do the m9XX vs. Joty head-to-head?
 
Thanks again.  Looking forward to hear your opinion...

 

[Michgelsen]

  Well yeah the amp in the MiniDAC sucked but the DAC part was excellent and better than the M9XX.

 
I do not agree: I found the DAC unimpressive. I never used the integrated amp, not of the MiniDAC, and not of the m9xx, because I always use electrostatic amp and headphones. My opinion of the m9xx is solely based on its DAC function, which I find very good.

 

[Psalmanazar]

   
I do not agree: I found the DAC unimpressive. I never used the integrated amp, not of the MiniDAC, and not of the m9xx, because I always use electrostatic amp and headphones. My opinion of the m9xx is solely based on its DAC function, which I find very good.

Ah I can imagine how the AK4490 would synergize better with estats. MiniDAC was better for Sennheisers and powered monitors.

 

[fjrabon]

Got to spend a little bit of head time on Sunday with the m9XX and the Joty head to head.  And the results were more or less as you'd expect.  Joty is very clearly a more capable amp than the m9XX.  It's not night and day, but the difference is there.  A bit more dynamic.  However, the DAC on the m9XX was a bit better, IMHO.  Both units sound to me very neutral.  The m9XX is maybe a smidge smoother, and the Joty a bit more detailed, but that difference is fairly miniscule.  I'd say they're very similar units on the whole tonality wise, just with different capabilities.  I still love the crossfeed capabilities of the m9XX, and not needing a wall wart can be a plus for the m9XX in certain situations.
 
Overall, I'd say if you need amping versatility, go with the Jotenheim; it can drive everything from IEMs to the HE6 well.  It may not be the best amp in the world for every headphone, but it will acquit itself well with anything you throw at it.  If you have exclusively medium to easy to drive single ended headphones, go with the m9XX, as the better DAC will shine, and it has more features and more versatility use wise.  
 
I think of the Joty as a near TOTL desktop amp that has a capable DAC slapped on.  I think of the m9XX as a transportable all in one solution.  They serve different needs to me, although their use cases can overlap.  
 
While it might seem that I have poo-pooed the DAC on the Joty, it is a very good DAC, and CERTAINLY worth the $100.  Unless you are a vinyl person, I would absolutely bet the built in DAC with it, just so you could use it for those times when maybe you're gonna spend some time at a hotel, and don't want to carry a ton of extra stuff.  It's not like the ODAC, which makes me cringe for something better.  It's maybe a smidge better than the DAC in the regular Modi.  
 
I think of it like the m9XX is a $500 DAC with a $200 amp and the Joty is a $550 amp with a $150 DAC.  Both I think are still great values, just depends on what you need/want.  I personally don't need the Joty, so despite the temptation I probably won't get one, but I love that Schiit is making it, as hopefully it really brings some of these competing manufacturers to realize the need they have to step their game up or be relegated to irrelevance.  
 
Schiit is really bringing the thunder with their last 2 offerings (Joty and MoMBy) and hopefully disrupting the market, similarly to how Apple did with the original iPhone.

 

[Zachik]

  Got to spend a little bit of head time on Sunday with the m9XX and the Joty head to head.  And the results were more or less as you'd expect.  Joty is very clearly a more capable amp than the m9XX.  It's not night and day, but the difference is there.  A bit more dynamic.  However, the DAC on the m9XX was a bit better, IMHO.  Both units sound to me very neutral.  The m9XX is maybe a smidge smoother, and the Joty a bit more detailed, but that difference is fairly miniscule.  I'd say they're very similar units on the whole tonality wise, just with different capabilities.  I still love the crossfeed capabilities of the m9XX, and not needing a wall wart can be a plus for the m9XX in certain situations.
 
Overall, I'd say if you need amping versatility, go with the Jotenheim; it can drive everything from IEMs to the HE6 well.  It may not be the best amp in the world for every headphone, but it will acquit itself well with anything you throw at it.  If you have exclusively medium to easy to drive single ended headphones, go with the m9XX, as the better DAC will shine, and it has more features and more versatility use wise.  
 
I think of the Joty as a near TOTL desktop amp that has a capable DAC slapped on.  I think of the m9XX as a transportable all in one solution.  They serve different needs to me, although their use cases can overlap.  
 
While it might seem that I have poo-pooed the DAC on the Joty, it is a very good DAC, and CERTAINLY worth the $100.  Unless you are a vinyl person, I would absolutely bet the built in DAC with it, just so you could use it for those times when maybe you're gonna spend some time at a hotel, and don't want to carry a ton of extra stuff.  It's not like the ODAC, which makes me cringe for something better.  It's maybe a smidge better than the DAC in the regular Modi.  
 
I think of it like the m9XX is a $500 DAC with a $200 amp and the Joty is a $550 amp with a $150 DAC.  Both I think are still great values, just depends on what you need/want.  I personally don't need the Joty, so despite the temptation I probably won't get one, but I love that Schiit is making it, as hopefully it really brings some of these competing manufacturers to realize the need they have to step their game up or be relegated to irrelevance.  
 
Schiit is really bringing the thunder with their last 2 offerings (Joty and MoMBy) and hopefully disrupting the market, similarly to how Apple did with the original iPhone.

 
Thanks!!