[Steve999]

Very nice. I've got my Foobar running now, with your suggested settings. Pat Martino / Joey DiFrancesco (sp)? I want to thank you all again for turning me on to Foobar. I've never been into the "computer as source" scene before, but this is pretty nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakked1 If you're running this through Foobar or something similar, I recommend a little EQ fun... -6 @ 10Khz, +6 at 14Khz, 0 everywhere else. Try it for an album or two and you might never go back..

 

[sxr71]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmbennett Never mind! Found this link: http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showt...&highlight=880and it appears that the differences between "old" and "new" are aesthetic only.

In the most negative way IMHO.

 

[Steve999]

Okay! Day six with the DT880s is more or less complete!

First, I apologize for harping on the treble. The thing is, there is nothing else to talk about. The bass and the midrange are as close to perfect as I've ever heard. There is really nothing to discuss about it, other than to heap praise. The comfort is great, the build quality is great.

I did some more comparing other headphones with my DT880s today. I decided that the DT880s are keepers. My other headphones are pretty much a trash heap at this point. The SR60s might be fun once in a while. Or I might use the V6 or HD280 for some isolation. I might listen to my HD580s just out of curiosity when the next head-fi "veil" thread pops up. Or I might pull something out a portable can drive easily. But generally, the bass and mids of the DT880s sound much nicer than anything else I have. It's hard to exaggerate the difference.

A filter was developed by my friend today that apparently eliminates the DT880 resonant behavior at 9 khz, and also improves treble performance above 9 khz because in addition to creating the spike at 9 khz, the resonant behavior caused some nulls above 9 khz. It will probably be a while before I get to hear it. I was sent some graphs of measurements and it seems as though it does smooth out the highs and improve treble extension. The resonant spike is reduced to nearly inaudible levels. The filter is made of a thin slice of high-grade acoustic foam with a centered hole in it and is apparently easily and non-invasively installed. I can do about the same thing with EQ, but eliminating the resonance with the filter is a more precise way of doing things, since the physical cause of the spike (the resonance) is actually being reduced or eliminated. We're playing around with the idea of having a few filters for me, to reduce the resonance to lesser or greater degrees, because the 9 khz resonance spike does result in a very live and luminescent effect -- it's part of the charm of the headphone.

I've been reading threads about the DT880s, of course. I've read a few comments about the rise between 4 and 6 khz. It's centered at about 5.2 khz. It might not measure perfectly, but for actual music listening I don't find that rise to be very much of a coloration. To me the biggest coloration is the spike at 9 khz. This adds brilliance and sparkle and emphasizes things like triangles and drum cymbals and ambient details. It also makes the perceived level of bass response just a bit less than it would otherwise be. The treble spike at 9 khz is due to a resonance. The rise at 5.2 khz is just part of the transducer's response characteristics (it's not due to a resonance). 5.2 khz is just above the highest musical notes of non-precussive musical instruments -- just out of the midrange and into the treble and harmonics. If overdone that area can result in midrange or low treble harshness, which does not seem to occur in the DT880s.

Because the biggest coloration is a 6 to 8 db spike at 9 khz (IMHO), virtually anything with a treble control can reduce the coloration. Treble controls are usually centered somewhere between 8 khz and 12 khz, often right at 10 khz. I find that even just turning down the treble 3 db with such a tone control is a large improvement, mildly taming the effects of the resonance, while preserving the brilliance and ambiance of the transducers.

An equalizer slider at 8 or 10 khz can be quite effective too and a little more focused. Again, as little as -3db can really bring the sound quality to an amazing, perhaps unsurpassed, level of fidelity, IMHO. But keep in mind, I only half know what I'm talking about. I learn as I go.

Thanks all for your observations and comments. I'm really enjoying it.

 

[konstantinos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjf http://graphs.headphone.com/ WE NEED A DT880 SMILEY:

w00t! Thanks!

 

[Steve999]

Well tonight I had an interesting experience. I'll call the DT880 treble spike at 9 khz "the spike." I get rid of it at the touch of a button with my DEQ2496 digital equalizer (turning the "bypass" of the parametric equalizer on and off). The more I have been listening, with and without the spike, the more I consider the spike a serious deficiency, and serious coloration. I will just reiterate that the mids and bass on the DT880s are, to me, perfect. However, the spike can cause the perceived amount of bass to be less than what the phone is really putting out.

Tonight, I listened to Wynton Marsalis's Live at Blues Alley (1986), and had to get rid of the spike. The sound was not acceptable with the spike. I had Jeff "Tain" Watts' cymbals crashing all over the place. So I got rid of the spike with my DEQ2496, and voila, world's greatest headphone appears (not exaggerating, by the way).

But, then I listened to Wynton Marsalis's Black Codes (From the Underground) (1985), and felt that the studio-recorded sound absolutely required the spike. The sound was too dead without the spike. The result with the spike was superior to my ears. So maybe there is some merit to the spike.

Incidentally, back then (in 1985 and 1986) it was difficult to get a handle on how good Wynton Marsalis's playing was because it was surrounded by so much hype and accusations that he was stilted or unemotional or overly technical. This had an effect on my ability to enjoy his recordings. 20 years down the road now the playing sounds fiery and brilliant and not dated on minute. But I digress...

I would be fascinated to know what Beyer was thinking with that large 9 khz spike in their premier headphones. It seems such an obvious flaw. It can apparently be eliminated almost completely with some inexpensive moderate unobtrusive damping (see two posts above). I wonder if the spike was an aesthetic decision, similar to the decision in the opposite direction that Senn used in its shelved-off treble in the HD580, HD600 and HD650 and to a lesser extent in the HD555 and HD595. The more I think about it, it's hard to believe that the 9 khz treble spike was just some sort of technical problem that Beyer did not know how to work around for a headphone that costs $200+ per with nearly perfect bass and mids. Just one of those things, I suppose.

 

[konstantinos]

Steve! You're nearing the "obsession" point!

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve999 I would be fascinated to know what Beyer was thinking with that large 9 khz spike in their premier headphones. It seems such an obvious flaw.

Steve, not everyone finds it subjectively "large." The word 'large' is relative and arbitrary. An elephant is large, but compared to the planet earth it's very tiny. The earth is large, but compared to the sun it's miniscule, and so on.

As I stated, I don't notice anything amiss with the treble 99% of the time, and I'd have no reason to lie to you. You seem to have zeroed in on this one aspect and blown it waaaaayyy out of proportion in your mind.

Suggestion: Take that EQ out of the chain[size=xx-small] and smash it[/size], and just listen to music for awhile. Let your ears accommodate to "the spike" and the normal sonic signature of the headphones, like everyone's does (when let alone to listen to music). You are literally analyzing your headphones to death. This is not the way to enjoy the music. Are you an aspiring headphone designer/engineer, or are you wanting to listen to music?

Thank God nobody talked me into going the Behringer/Foobar EQ route... I'm really grateful for that, and I know now to avoid it like the plague. What a way to turn the simple (spiritual) act of listening to music into "audio hell."

 

[Elephas]

I also like the DT880 very much, and thought it had a bit too much treble brightness. After recabling with Cardas, I think its treble is slightly smoother and warmer compared to a DT880 with stock cable.

 

[Max Minimum]

I think you've done the DT 880's justice in your representation of them, Steve999. They are truly excellent headphones, but not perfect. I was excited to hear your explanation of the spike causing nulls in the frequencies above it because I thought the dip right after the spike was an odd thing. The only explanation I came up with was that there was some cancellation going on! And this seemed to match what I was hearing. I had tried to attenuate the slightly harsh (to my ears) treble by eq'ing it down a bit at the spike, and then I tried to bring the 'dipped' frequencies up by making them higher relatively (all eq'ing was subtractive, though). This basically traded one harshness for a slightly different one. In the beginning I was eq'ing pretty drastically - -8 db at the spike and +8 db at the dip. Where I wound up was -4 db at the spike, -2db at 4 or 5 khz (I'm not at home and don't remember now exactly where), and +1 at the dip, again relative to the average ( I have the very lowest frequencies at zero, with a wide swath thereafter at -2).

With these settings they are wonderful! They can be detailed, clear and airy with that kind of music and they can be head-traumatizing basshead cans when that's called for. All the while they never lose their composure.

I'd been comparing them to the HD595's, to which they compared very favorably when eq'ed. But then I realized that wasn't entirely fair, because I wasn't eq'ing the Senns. So, again using the headroom graphs as a starting point, I raised the 'dipped' frequencies with a bit of eq and then adjusted by ear to what sounded best to me, and again raised the absolute lowest frequencies just a tad where both 'phones just begin to roll off slightly (though really, there isn't much musical information down there). The 595's already admirable details improved slightly as did the soundstage, and they seemed to have better impact in the bass, too. The bass improvement I wasn't really expecting. Maybe it's that there are harmonics down there that were brought out, but really I think it's that sometimes good response (without being overbearing) on one end of the spectrum helps the other end, too - sort of like how light colors next to dark ones look even lighter and vice versa. Anyway, the two phones then sounded, predictably I suppose, much more like one another than before, with the Beyers maintaining the upper hand. The midrange and the midbass seemed a little bit more prominent with the Senns, which can be nice sometimes, but extension, detail, impact, soundstage and quickness all went to the Beyers. It kind of reminded me of the way people compare the 595 and the 555. Basically, from what I've read, it sounds like the 555's are 7/8ths versions of the 595's, with a bit more bass but a bit less extention and details on both ends. That would be a good way to describe the way the 595's matched up to the 880's, both eq'ed.

 

[Steve999]

Thanks Max Minimum. That was a great contribution to the thread and very interesting to me. I really appreciate it. I've learned a ton by getting these headphones and it's all pretty fascinating.

Actually, I've been a little concerned that maybe I should have gotten the HD595s. In fact, if I were making a choice based on using a phone with no EQ I probably would have gone for the HD595s, over any other headphone out there. I am not entirely convinced that I will be able to keep myself from getting the HD595s in the long run. With EQ, the Beyer's shortcomings (obvious peaks in the treble rather than the HD595's complex dips in the treble) are much easier to correct, and post-EQ the Beyer's extra bass extension and smoothness in the midrange and energy in the treble pay off, from what you are saying, so that's really good to hear. I am not entirely convinced I am going to be able keep myself from getting a pair of HD595s in the long run, though. It's great to see that to one pretty good pair of ears the post-EQ the Beyers hold the edge... I feel just a little more secure about my decision.

One comment you made I have found to be very true -- that improving one part of the audio spectrum greatly benefits the presentation of the other parts of the audio spectrum.

The explanation, I think, as to the peaks and nulls, is that the modal resonance that causes the 9 khz spike also causes nulls higher up the the frequency spectrum. (I don't really understand the concept of a modal resonance but that never stopped me.) As I understand it, the folds in the ears cause treble presentation in headphones to be very prone to uneven response due to modal resonances and other interactions with the ears. The folds in the ears have the natural effect of accentuating high frequencies. I suppose you could look at it as our ears being designed to hear things at a bit of a distance, and to capture the highs with a little extra facility, rather than to have transducers blaring into our ears. That's why the treble gets so jagged with nearly any headphone. Diffuse field equalization was supposed to make headphones sound flat if executed properly, but I don't think the state of the art is really there yet as far as the treble being smooth goes (or if it is, there sure is scant evidence of it). Beyer and Senn have nailed the bass and mids though, IMHO.

I think you can be satisfied that you are getting an extraordinary level of fidelity from your gear. I find that pretty satisfying, to consistently hear something pretty close to replicating what's on the CD. It's not been very long that this level of performance was in reach at all, much less using only moderately expensive consumer grade gear. It's a great time to be an audio enthusiast.

Obsessed? Who's obsessed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Minimum I think you've done the DT 880's justice in your representation of them, Steve999. They are truly excellent headphones, but not perfect. I was excited to hear your explanation of the spike causing nulls in the frequencies above it because I thought the dip right after the spike was an odd thing. The only explanation I came up with was that there was some cancellation going on!... ...With these settings they are wonderful! They can be detailed, clear and airy with that kind of music and they can be head-traumatizing basshead cans when that's called for. All the while they never lose their composure. I'd been comparing them to the HD595's, to which they compared very favorably when eq'ed. But then I realized that wasn't entirely fair, because I wasn't eq'ing the Senns... Basically, from what I've read, it sounds like the 555's are 7/8ths versions of the 595's, with a bit more bass but a bit less extention and details on both ends. That would be a good way to describe the way the 595's matched up to the 880's, both eq'ed.

 

[Steve999]

Well, after what, 11 days with the DT880s, I feel very good about my assessment of how they sound and why they sound that way. As far as EQ goes, I am settling in on just knocking down the 9 khz treble spike by about 3db wth my DEQ2496. This leaves the treble a little bit tipped up to get all the atmospherics and details. Just bringing it down 3 db makes a very big improvement to my ears. Using a 10 khz slider on a computer or a treble knob on receiver and just shaving off about 3 db yields a similar improvement. This moves me from very good sound to nearly ideal sound with a wide variety of music, for my personal taste.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Minimum Where I wound up was -4 db at the spike, -2db at 4 or 5 khz (I'm not at home and don't remember now exactly where), and +1 at the dip, again relative to the average ( I have the very lowest frequencies at zero, with a wide swath thereafter at -2). With these settings they are wonderful! They can be detailed, clear and airy with that kind of music and they can be head-traumatizing basshead cans when that's called for. All the while they never lose their composure.