Going fully Wireless IEMs. Too soon? Or are we there yet?
Nov 10, 2019 at 2:52 AM Post #15,226 of 62,135
Anyone try both the Airpod Pro and the Liberty 2 Pro yet? Or L2P and WF-1000XM3?

I had a brief listen to the APP at the Apple store and was impressed by comfort, ANC, and ambient mode. The audio quality seemed a bit less than several products I own though.

So my questions are:
  1. Does the APP or WF-1000XM3 have any wind issues with ANC or when talking on the phone?
  2. Does the L2P have any wind issues when talking on the phone?
  3. Over all which has the better microphone for talking?
  4. How comfortable are the L2P as compared to the APP or WF-1000XM3?
  5. Is the audio of the L2P better or worse than the APP or WF-1000XM3 and why?
  6. Do any of these models suffer from footfall sounds when walking? Are any of them free from this noise?

I can answer some of these for the APP. Wind issues with ANC on are not an issue, with transparency on it becomes an issue (this may make it a little problematic for biking when you need to hear your surroundings and have lots of wind noise). I'm not sure what football sound are, but if you're referring to the thump sounds when walking (microphonics) then the ANC and transparency modes get rid of this, it should work the same way with the WF-1000XM3. If you turn off both ANC and transparency then I know you get the microphonics, I don't remember about wind noise.
 
Last edited:
Nov 10, 2019 at 3:11 AM Post #15,227 of 62,135
Thanks Tinyman392, I did mean sounds when walking. So the APP gets rid of wind noise and microphonics. That is good news I have talked with a WF-1000XM3 owner where I live and they suffer from wind and if they are like my WI1000X they will have a bit of microphonics so the APP is better in this regard.

So for me it will come down to the APP or forego ANC and get the Liberty 2 Pro for better Audio quality, and use one of my over ear ANC headphones like my AKG 700NC when I want noise cancelling.
 
Nov 10, 2019 at 3:11 AM Post #15,228 of 62,135
Wind noise is going to be a problem above a certain speed with any device that has ANC on because the mics will pick it up (maybe someone will come up with the option to activate Feedback only ANC one day). If you run as fast as Kipchoge for instance ! For us mere mortals it will be a problem for bike rides, be it the Sonys, the APPs, the Echo Buds, the LTA+, etc...the only fix is to turn off the mics and therefore ANC. I also noticed yesterday that the Echo Buds no longer responded to "Alexa" when riding my bike, so same problem for mics used to talk.
 
Nov 10, 2019 at 3:13 AM Post #15,229 of 62,135
Nice, some measurements with these. Looks like rtings uses an adjusted Harman Target (2017) for their compensation which calls for a 10dB bass boost and DF for the treble regions. The nice thing is that you can quickly convert this over to the DF normalization (something similar to what an Etymotic would be based off of). Granted it's more of an old school compensation, but it shows a lot of what Apple was targeting. I've adjusted the bass for the DF normalization below at some points and connected them: 3 points < 20, 20, 30, 40, ~58, 80, 100, 200. Everything after the ~200 regions is clean for DF since they use DF for everything past this point.

The right earphone looks to be having a worse seal if you look below 20Hz, though it doesn't make that big of a difference, the midrange also looks a little wonky. I drew a line at max(left, 20 Hz, 4kHz) + max(left, 20Hz, 4kHz) / 2. What does this show? From 20 Hz all the way through 4kHz, the AirPod Pros are within 2.5dB from DF neutral. More specifically, < 2k the response is about 2.5dB above that line (except for the dip at 1k) and above 2k, the response is about 2dB below that line once you hit 5k with strong spikes through to the 10k range. If they had evened out the spikeyness > 4k Hz, removed the large increase at 10k and average it out, you'd actually get something very close to the Etymotic target curve. I know there was a blog post (don't remember the source) that talked about how Etymotic originally targeted DF then found out that treble was too harsh with DF due to loudness in recordings. They lowered the treble response in their originals in twice as they were trying to get it right. This resulted in 3 IEMs, the ER-4B, ER-4S, and ER-4P which were released in that order. There curves can be seen in Rin Choi's blog.

The Harman target has really taken the audiophile community by storm in the past 5 years and with good reason, it helps further mask out the recording issues (due in part to the loudness wars) that Etymotic battled years past. Etymotic tried to do it by reducing treble, Harman does it by increasing bass. The end goal is to remove those elements of the recording that are "harmful" to the enjoyment of music while maintaining everything else. The Harman curve gets close to this and does it pretty well. That being said, Apple has never really targeted the Harman curve in their IEMs. Their ADDIEM were remarkably very close to DF like the APP are.

Very interesting. As an aside, I note in the rtings testing it says "Unfortunately, our testing dongle doesn't support Bluetooth 5.0 or interact with the H1 chip" which means that some of the tests, like latency, show the worst case possible for Apple products and probably for lots of others too. I wonder what else this affects too?
 
Nov 10, 2019 at 3:26 AM Post #15,230 of 62,135
Wind noise is going to be a problem above a certain speed with any device that has ANC on because the mics will pick it up (maybe someone will come up with the option to activate Feedback only ANC one day). If you run as fast as Kipchoge for instance ! For us mere mortals it will be a problem for bike rides, be it the Sonys, the APPs, the Echo Buds, the LTA+, etc...the only fix is to turn off the mics and therefore ANC. I also noticed yesterday that the Echo Buds no longer responded to "Alexa" when riding my bike, so same problem for mics used to talk.
I suspect that too a bit. I am a hard walker and slow jogger so no real speed wind for me but I live in a very windy area. So wind is a major issue for me. But I also really liked the ambient mode of the APP one thing the L2P is missing. Really wish Anker had added that one more feature...
 
Nov 10, 2019 at 3:34 AM Post #15,231 of 62,135
Yes the APPs ambient mode is the best I've ever heard, as close as "transparent" as it gets. The Echo Buds do well too but it feels more processed, same as the 65Ts that would probably be a tad behind.
If you live in a very windy area and get winds of 20kph+ I suspect you'll get the same wind noise I got on my bike yesterday :wink:
 
Nov 10, 2019 at 3:39 AM Post #15,232 of 62,135
Not sure I understand.
left is set to noise control and right is Siri? If so, Siri still works for me.
iPhone Settings - Bluetooth - Press the (i) behind Airpods Pro
At the bottom you can choose which microphone to use. Automatic - always left - always right
If I pick automatic or right, "Hey Siri" does not work. I have to pick left manually.
I use iPhone X with 13.2.2 - Have tried everything! Reset Siri several times, reset the APPs twice, tried different languages etc...

Anyway... Have tried all three tips, also played around with filling the tips with foam from a Symbio Mandarine tip.
Whatever I do, when moving the mouth/chewing/walking (and touches the APPs) I get changes (like "fluctuations" - I'm Norwegian so it's difficult to find the words to describe :) ) in the sound, typical on high details like hi-hat/cymbals.
The tips that give me seal and the least changes in the sound is small on the left, medium on right. (Edit: the Ear Tip Fit Test says I don't have a seal on the left with small tip :frowning2: )
I just think this is another proof that my ears always react to something negative with silicone tips. (vacuum feel, sound changing while chewing, thumping when moving/running etc)
Edit2: This sound change is ONLY with ANC on.
 
Last edited:
Nov 10, 2019 at 3:40 AM Post #15,233 of 62,135
We frequently have wind well over 20km/hr so really think I am going try the L2P instead. It helps that I also own the MTW so can use them for at work :)
 
Last edited:
Nov 10, 2019 at 3:51 AM Post #15,234 of 62,135
I suspect that too a bit. I am a hard walker and slow jogger so no real speed wind for me but I live in a very windy area. So wind is a major issue for me. But I also really liked the ambient mode of the APP one thing the L2P is missing. Really wish Anker had added that one more feature...

I work outside with the L2P and I haven’t noticed any problem with wind noise yet, I say yet because it hasn’t been that windy since I’ve had them. The seal on these in my ears is good so I do hear my footsteps a bit, i think this is down to the seal and our own bone structure, how we walk etc, I’m quite heavy footed. My primary priority for these was comfort and SQ and ease of use. Comfort is great, I forget I’ve got these on, these have never disconnected when in use and connect the instant the box is open. I have no other TW to compare these to SQ wise but i am amazed at the SQ of these, if there are other TW with better SQ than these, I’d be interested in getting them.
 
Nov 10, 2019 at 4:19 AM Post #15,235 of 62,135
I have been using the TFZ B.V2 for a week and this device has a very sweet tonality but lacks enough volume, which can be overcome by boosting software volume slightly.

@Bartig Which tws would you suggest from the sub 100/50$ category which is fairly clean and balanced sounding without boosted bass/trebles?
 
Last edited:
Nov 10, 2019 at 9:40 AM Post #15,238 of 62,135
Very interesting. As an aside, I note in the rtings testing it says "Unfortunately, our testing dongle doesn't support Bluetooth 5.0 or interact with the H1 chip" which means that some of the tests, like latency, show the worst case possible for Apple products and probably for lots of others too. I wonder what else this affects too?

Granted that not everyone has a device that can utilize the H1 chip, but I have to say it's kind of unfair for them to score the latency since if they can't completely test it to its fullest, and worst, potentials. It's like having a performance/sports car review where the reviewer had the car stuck in its "comfort"/"normal" mode and saying that the suspension is sloppy, the steering is too loose and uninformative, and the throttle response is non-existent when all of those issues would be solved by getting out of "comfort"/"normal" mode.

I'm not sure if it would affect the actual measurements they supplied though It's possible, but I doubt it.
 
Nov 10, 2019 at 9:45 AM Post #15,239 of 62,135
Nov 10, 2019 at 10:39 AM Post #15,240 of 62,135
I am sure this has been discussed, but it's quite hard to find proper links. Which IEMs would you recommend? $100-$200 range or so for daily use (cycling, walking, etc)

I am currently considering Melomania 1 and Sony WF1000XM3. What else?
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top