[JaZZ]

I will come to intoart's defense. He may have come across as troll in other threads (i.e. the various K 701 bashing feasts), but this thread seems to have been launched out of serious interest. And the fact that a (halfways) established member of this board comes to such a radical conclusion is nothing short of interesting.

Now I don't share intoart's point of view at all. To me the different headphones all sound significantly different, and most of the cheaper ones have a sonic signature that I would categorize as inferior to the more expensive ones. But not without exceptions: I like the K 701 better than big shots like R10, O2, HE 90 and K 1000. Of course not with all criteria, but in the sum or essence of them.

That's why I have some understanding for the OP's approach. There are simply no clear objective quality criteria for headphones. That said, I would concede that a PortaPro can't be rated as a real contender for the high-end class save for individual sonic preferences such as the fun it provides in comparison to the more analytical characteristics of the «technically superior» headphones. In this case I would go so far as to speak of objective technical superiority in almost all criteria – because that's what I clearly hear. In less obvious cases, though, I reserve the right to dispute a general, universal (technical/sonical) superiority, e.g. of the R10 with respect to the K 701.

Well, to be honest, the OP's radical approach may also be the consequence of a relatively low sensitivity to sonic differences, let alone subtleties. After all that's what the original post indicates, stating just marginal differences with actually quite different designs. Or (later) the pretended nonexistence of sonic differences among CDPs. That's where I believe to detect a gap between entitlement and reality.

I still think a civil discussion about the subject should be possible.
.

 

[intoart]

Just to clarify, the relatively affordable phones that I enjoy are quite good quality phones. At no point have I suggested that truly cheap/poor quality phones sound as good as everything else, far from it. Affordable but excellent phones (eg HD280, DT770) are by no means comparable to earbuds and the like!

The lack of audible differences between (decent) CDPs is far from imaginary, it is simply a fact. It has been proven in several trials. Unfortunately, these cannot be discussed in detail here.

It is not possible that I have a "low sensitivity to sonic differences". My hearing has been tested (recently) and found to be the auditory equivalent of 20/20 vision. In fact, I have the best hearing of anyone I know by a pretty wide margin. (People at work often express astonishment at the things I hear from a distance that they can only confirm by moving closer.)

No, the truth is that the "night and day" differences between headphones claimed by some simply do not exist. Instead, the differences are subtle at best, even between phones at drastically different price points.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by intoart /img/forum/go_quote.gif The lack of audible differences between (decent) CDPs is far from imaginary, it is simply a fact. It has been proven in several trials. Unfortunately, these cannot be discussed in detail here.

You interpret too much into these test results. They only show that the test person(s) could not identify the test subjects under the given circumstances. (To me they also show the dubiety of those tests.)


Quote:

It is not possible that I have a "low sensitivity to sonic differences". My hearing has been tested (recently) and found to be the auditory equivalent of 20/20 vision. In fact, I have the best hearing of anyone I know by a pretty wide margin. (People at work often express astonishment at the things I hear from a distance that they can only confirm by moving closer.)

You interpret too much into these test results. Everyday noises is not music reproduction.


.

 

[olblueyez]

Not when your skeptical.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by intoart /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, the truth is that the "night and day" differences between headphones claimed by some simply do not exist. Instead, the differences are subtle at best, even between phones at drastically different price points.

Here's a prime example of the arrogance I was referring to in my earlier post. I agree that sometimes the differences between headphones, some at different price points, are subtle at best, and often exaggerated here on this forum, but that's often due to the imperfections of the written word when people are trying to explain what they hear. You, yourself, have taken to exaggeration when trying to explain the qualities of the DT770s in posts that I remember well. It's also sometimes due to inexperience and/or enthusiasm of people posting impressions of something new to them without wide frames of reference. We've all engaged in this at some point to some degree, but these posts tend to be tempered by further posts by other members, and a collective wisdom regarding any one anything appears. It's that collective wisdom you continue to disregard, though you've been around long enough to know better. You have every right to talk about what you know (comparing the headphones you have listened to) and talk about their similarities and differences, post controversial opinions if you have them, and even express doubts that there is something better, or even very different, out there. That's all fine, but when you extrapolate your limited experience and start making statements about things you know nothing about, I'm calling b.s.

Since you have made your claim that no night and day differences exist, and are subtle at best, across the board, please detail your impressions and comparisons of the following headphones:

Similar Pricepoints:

Sony Qualia vs Sony R10
ATH-L3000 vs Grado HP2
Grado 325 vs. Senn HD650
AKG K1000 vs. Ultrasone Edition 9
Grado SR80 vs. Senn HD595
Beyer DT880 vs Denon D2000
Stax O2MK1 vs Denon D7000

Different pricepoint:

Sony Qualia vs. Denon D2000
Grado HP2 vs. Ultrasone HFI780
Senn HE90 vs. Grado SR80
Sony CD3000 vs. Senn HD280
Stax O2MK2 vs Beyer DT 770/80

If you can back up your statement Quote:

Originally Posted by intoart /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, the truth is that the "night and day" differences between headphones claimed by some simply do not exist. Instead, the differences are subtle at best, even between phones at drastically different price points.

by providing detailed impressions of the above (listing the components you used so that we who have heard the listed headphones can understand your references), you might be able to provide an alternate, yet valuable perspective to this forum, even if I disagree with it. If you can't, I'll hope you stop posting "truths" that are nothing more than provocative assertions meant to frustrate and or incite this whole board. It's either planned trollism or the worst kind of arrogance, and either are getting really old around here.

 

[mbd2884]

One thing to discuss is.

There is a difference between better and diminishing returns. I believe after the $350 pricing there is diminishing return which makes it less likely for consumers to spend more. Why spend more if you can get the HD600, HD650, DT880 and K701 all for less than $350?

Now I don't think that these headphones are the best. The HE90 for one, the R10, AD2000, A2000X, DX1000, and others all I'm sure are more expensive for a reason. But their price is just not worth it for the majority of Headphone listeners to buy them. Because at those prices, I personally start thinking what speakers I could buy instead with that money!

 

[olblueyez]

There will always be a group of cheapsters knocking what they don't have/haven't tried. They should be ignored with diligence. Doubting Thomas's who reject any way of thinking aside from their own are not the best people to get advice from, unless you want to make lateral moves in order to be cheap.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbd2884 /img/forum/go_quote.gif One thing to discuss is. There is a difference between better and diminishing returns. I believe after the $350 pricing there is diminishing return which makes it less likely for consumers to spend more. Why spend more if you can get the HD600, HD650, DT880 and K701 all for less than $350?

No one is going to disagree with you on this point. What's worth it to one person will differ greatly from what's worth it to another, and opinions will often be based lifestyle and choices that have little to do with with what someone hears. That topic becomes very personal and every person will always be right based on their own choices. If you said that you were happy with stock earbuds and a mp3 player, I'd be happy for you, and if my lifestyle changed, I could be happy with that as well if I had to. That was not the topic of this thread, which is why I've challenged some of the posts as I have. There's a big difference in the arrogance of asserting there are no significant differences between headphones of different pricepoints without having the experience to make such a claim, and the very real point of saying that you prefer something or choose something based on your own tastes and life choices.

 

[olblueyez]

Stick the Browning in his face Boo!

 

[intoart]

Congrats Boo, you have the rare honor of making my ignore list! I don't really give a damn what you declare to be B.S.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by intoart /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't really give a damn what you declare to be B.S.

You don't seem to give a damn about what anyone other than you, with your very limited experience, has to say about gear you've never heard, which is why I and others have called your posts trollish. Please remember that others read this board for information, and if you're posting bs., which you are, others will call you out on it. You've posted conclusions about gear you've never heard, and call them "truths." Rather than offering any evidence for your claims, you put me on ignore for challenging your fluff. If that's not arrogance, I don't know what is.

 

[Nerull]

Quote:

Stick the Browning in his face Boo!

This reminded me of something from awhile ago.

"Go for the eyes Boo! Go for the eyes!" *squealing*

Baldur's Gate, heh.

~Thomas

 

[grawk]

So to summarize:

Q: does better exist?
A: yes

Q: does that have to matter, if you are happy with what you have?
A: only if you want it to

 

[subtle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here's a prime example of the arrogance I was referring to in my earlier post. I agree that sometimes the differences between headphones, some at different price points, are subtle at best, and often exaggerated here on this forum, but that's often due to the imperfections of the written word when people are trying to explain what they hear. You, yourself, have taken to exaggeration when trying to explain the qualities of the DT770s in posts that I remember well. It's also sometimes due to inexperience and/or enthusiasm of people posting impressions of something new to them without wide frames of reference. We've all engaged in this at some point to some degree, but these posts tend to be tempered by further posts by other members, and a collective wisdom regarding any one anything appears. It's that collective wisdom you continue to disregard, though you've been around long enough to know better. You have every right to talk about what you know (comparing the headphones you have listened to) and talk about their similarities and differences, post controversial opinions if you have them, and even express doubts that there is something better, or even very different, out there. That's all fine, but when you extrapolate your limited experience and start making statements about things you know nothing about, I'm calling b.s. Since you have made your claim that no night and day differences exist, and are subtle at best, across the board, please detail your impressions and comparisons of the following headphones: Similar Pricepoints: Sony Qualia vs Sony R10 ATH-L3000 vs Grado HP2 Grado 325 vs. Senn HD650 AKG K1000 vs. Ultrasone Edition 9 Grado SR80 vs. Senn HD595 Beyer DT880 vs Denon D2000 Stax O2MK1 vs Denon D7000 Different pricepoint: Sony Qualia vs. Denon D2000 Grado HP2 vs. Ultrasone HFI780 Senn HE90 vs. Grado SR80 Sony CD3000 vs. Senn HD280 Stax O2MK2 vs Beyer DT 770/80 If you can back up your statement by providing detailed impressions of the above (listing the components you used so that we who have heard the listed headphones can understand your references), you might be able to provide an alternate, yet valuable perspective to this forum, even if I disagree with it. If you can't, I'll hope you stop posting "truths" that are nothing more than provocative assertions meant to frustrate and or incite this whole board. It's either planned trollism or the worst kind of arrogance, and either are getting really old around here.

A truly excellent post.

Regarding the part I put in bold, I'd say it's definitely a mixture of both. That, plus his apparent need for attention.

In all my time on this forum, I can't say I've ever seen anyone else so truly blinded by their own ignorance. I used to get mildly frustrated with intoart, but now I simply get amusement out of almost everyone of his posts. His ability to troll is on a level I never imagined possible. He's the type that would never admit openly here on the forum that he was wrong, if he ever had the opportunity to try any of the truly high end in headphones. It must be terribly lonely going through life not ever meeting someone that come close to knowing as much as you.

 

[Epicfailman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by intoart /img/forum/go_quote.gif Congrats Boo, you have the rare honor of making my ignore list! I don't really give a damn what you declare to be B.S.

I am pretty sure Boo going on your ignore list just made his day...just throwing that out there. Anyways, back to watching!