[Epicfailman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donunus /img/forum/go_quote.gif its still subjective actually. someones grandma may like the earbuds better and thatll be the end of it. I believe something 100% better should be better for 100% of all people in the world hehehe

If your grandmother likes a broken-down oldsmobile better than a Saleen, that doesn't change the fact that the Saleen is a better car. Her opinion of the cars and their actual quality are two different things. So no, it is not subjective. Does that mean your grandmother is stupid for liking the one over the other? Not at all. It just means that the better one is not her preference.

 

[Epicfailman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif A statement can be subjective and fact at the same time. But usually, here we are not expressing absolute facts, we are expressing our opinions of what we hear. Some of these opinions can be determined to be fact, and some of them can not. Either way, really the premise is that everyone is expressing their opinion, which is subjective. With that known, people will talk as if they are expressing facts, it is unavoidable. If I think the AKG 501 is better than the Grado RS-1, I am going to say it...without going through the trouble of explaining to someone that it is a subjective opinion rather than absolute fact. Where I agree with "lucky" though, is that a lot of times people try to override other's "subjective" opinions, expressing their own as fact(when in most cases, it is merely opinion and not fact).

Excellent point.

 

[hifidk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epicfailman /img/forum/go_quote.gif So if I say that a pair of R10s is better than a pair of apple earbuds you would tell me that is subjective? That is not subjective at all...without a doubt AT ALL the R10s are better, no matter what anyone says. They are more reliable, they are engineered leagues beyond the apple earbuds, and they use much higher quality parks. The only thing that can be said is that people's opinion of them are subjective, which frankly is quite self explanatory....opinion=subjective. So no, if I say that R10s are better headphones than apple earbuds, that is not subjective at all; it is simple fact.

That may look very obvious to us, but to other non-audiophiles, that might not be. For example, my girlfriend might think that Apple earbuds are better than R10 because they are much smaller to carry around, much more fashionable, works with her ipod better and it gets job done way she wants.

 

[Epicfailman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hifidk /img/forum/go_quote.gif That may look very obvious to us, but to other non-audiophiles, that might not be. For example, my girlfriend might think that Apple earbuds are better than R10 because they are much smaller to carry around, much more fashionable, works with her ipod better and it gets job done way she wants.

Aye, but that is where subjectivity really comes into play. Which is better, a 100-gallon tank of fresh water, or $10 million dollars? Many would say the money because you could buy that tank of water and still have $9.99 million left over. But what if you are stranded on a desert island...the water would be far superior. So situation can really make all the difference in the world. Very good point, hifidk. My point here is not that which headphones are better than others is an objective argument, but rather that it is not a subjective one. It is a mixture of the two, and anyone that claims it is all subjective is just as much a fool as someone who claims it is all objective. However, at the end of the day, the subjectivity really is what people hinge their decisions on I think.

 

[hifidk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epicfailman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Aye, but that is where subjectivity really comes into play. Which is better, a 100-gallon tank of fresh water, or $10 million dollars? Many would say the money because you could buy that tank of water and still have $9.99 million left over. But what if you are stranded on a desert island...the water would be far superior. So situation can really make all the difference in the world. Very good point, hifidk. My point here is not that which headphones are better than others is an objective argument, but rather that it is not a subjective one. It is a mixture of the two, and anyone that claims it is all subjective is just as much a fool as someone who claims it is all objective. However, at the end of the day, the subjectivity really is what people hinge their decisions on I think.

Oh, I wasn't really commenting on objectivity vs. subjectivity. I just thought that R10 example wasn't appropriate (?) I guess. To be honest, I don't have personal opinion on this whole objectivity vs. subjectivity thing but I think that we all should know that most of the information and impressions of headphones/gears on this board is "subjective" matter, even if that was not indicated by the person who is providing that information.

 

[tenzip]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epicfailman /img/forum/go_quote.gif However, at the end of the day, the subjectivity really is what people hinge their decisions on I think.

So how can those decisions be invalid? Your subjectivity may say differently, but it's just as valid as their subjectivity, but not for each other.

(Hi! Remember me?)

 

[donunus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epicfailman /img/forum/go_quote.gif If your grandmother likes a broken-down oldsmobile better than a Saleen, that doesn't change the fact that the Saleen is a better car. Her opinion of the cars and their actual quality are two different things. So no, it is not subjective. Does that mean your grandmother is stupid for liking the one over the other? Not at all. It just means that the better one is not her preference.

The thing of it is... "BETTER" is a subjective term. Technically Superior is the term you should use I think. Then we can say the sony r10 is technically superior to apple ibuds... but not better to everyone.

 

[Kernmac]

Of course opinions are subjective. So to are the words "better" and "best" and the like.
What is not subjective are those things that are tangible, measurable, fact and are therefore objective. That one headphone is capable of reproducing higher frquencies than another is objective, it can be measured and proven. That someone pefers that headphone more than another is subjective. Before anyone states that headphone A) is better than B), they should define "better". Generally "fit for a purpose" means a lot more than better. For example, the ESW9 is a "better" portable headphone than the HD650 because it leaks less and is a more practcal size, and can be driven easier. Now of course this statement is still subjective, as someone else may state that despite the size, and the sound leaking, they prefer the sound of the HD650, so to them the Senn might still be a "better" portable. Having said all that, express your opinion, and if you use the words "better" and it offends someone stupid enough to not understand the difference between subjective opinions and objective facts, then tough luck to them.

That's my opinion.

 

[KONAKONA]

Postin' in a troll thread. Also, everything after about page 3 was TL;DR.

The correct answer has already been stated but apparently it needs to be restated. Everything in audio is subjective. Someone can prefer ibuds over a well amped K1000 just as much as they can prefer the k1000 to the ibuds. OP likes his hd 280 and DT770s, but he just loves to post threads like this to tell us all that they are better than all other headphones. To my ears (and other people, might I add) the HD 280 and DT770 are NOT the best headphones one can buy (In fact, I prefer unmodded portapros over both of them myself). Just as much as I think both of them are rubbish, the probably sound perfect to OP. If we all had the same preferences, then the headphone recommendation thread whatever would only have one set of headphones for each price point, instead of nice lists of them. Head-fi would also be a good bit smaller as well.

Threads like these really need to be locked+deleted, and someone needs to make a sticky on the whole subjective bit.

 

[hifidk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kernmac /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of course opinions are subjective. So to are the words "better" and "best" and the like. What is not subjective are those things that are tangible, measurable, fact and are therefore objective. That one headphone is capable of reproducing higher frquencies than another is objective, it can be measured and proven. That someone pefers that headphone more than another is subjective. Before anyone states that headphone A) is better than B), they should define "better". Generally "fit for a purpose" means a lot more than better. For example, the ESW9 is a "better" portable headphone than the HD650 because it leaks less and is a more practcal size, and can be driven easier. Now of course this statement is still subjective, as someone else may state that despite the size, and the sound leaking, they prefer the sound of the HD650, so to them the Senn might still be a "better" portable. Having said all that, express your opinion, and if you use the words "better" and it offends someone stupid enough to not understand the difference between subjective opinions and objective facts, then tough luck to them. That's my opinion.

Exactly what I wanted to say. I just didn't have enough skills!

 

[Epicfailman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenzip /img/forum/go_quote.gif So how can those decisions be invalid? Your subjectivity may say differently, but it's just as valid as their subjectivity, but not for each other. (Hi! Remember me?)

I do remember you

That argument last night was great fun. my point I guess was that if you make an opinion on something that you do not have sufficient experience with, than that opinion should be held worth a grain of salt....maybe even less. unless of course they make clear that their opinions are only initial impressions, then you have the right perspective. But when someone makes opinions about something that they do not have the experience to make the opinion on, and they share that opinion without mentioning the fact that their opinion is only initial, they can harm someone else's opinion before they even experience that thing for themselves. Look at racism. Most of the things, like when people said that african americans were dirty came from ignorance; not from any truth. And people spread those opinions onto their children, who in turn believed it without any experience because their parents told them. Obviously, blemishing a headphones name is not even close to as problematic as blemishing the name of an entire race, but you can see what harm that can cause.

 

[tenzip]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KONAKONA /img/forum/go_quote.gif Postin' in a troll thread. Also, everything after about page 3 was TL;DR. The correct answer has already been stated but apparently it needs to be restated. Everything in audio is subjective. Threads like these really need to be locked+deleted, and someone needs to make a sticky on the whole subjective bit.

WHAT!? And ruin this splendid time-waster? Such lovely fun. If I really enjoyed it that much, though, I'd spend time in the sound science forum. This is just a lark. Nobody's forcing you to read it, and most here are having fun.

If the OP is just a troll, add him to your ignore list, then you won't be forced to read this thread.

 

[Epicfailman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donunus /img/forum/go_quote.gif The thing of it is... "BETTER" is a subjective term. Technically Superior is the term you should use I think. Then we can say the sony r10 is technically superior to apple ibuds... but not better to everyone.

Actually the word "better" is a relative term.

 

[Kernmac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KONAKONA /img/forum/go_quote.gif Postin' in a troll thread. Also, everything after about page 3 was TL;DR. The correct answer has already been stated but apparently it needs to be restated. Everything in audio is subjective. .

"Everything in audio is subjective?" You're wrong. And that is a fact.

 

[tenzip]

I still don't see how one person's opinion can possibly be less valid than another's, regardless of experience, when we're talking about something that is completely subjective, as picking a pair of headphones is, based on sound preference.