From Classical to Metal
Jul 27, 2007 at 12:51 AM Post #31 of 68
Quote:

Originally Posted by lwd /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Can you actually speak German or do you just like to drop it into your posts from time to time to make you seem intelligent? Thanks for the Musical Times quote by the way.


I just like to sprinkle foreign words liberally throughout my interactions on the music board of an online headphone forum to be thought of as intelligent. I especially like to do this when the words have entered my native tongue as loanwords, making them - in effect - English words.
 
Jul 27, 2007 at 1:11 AM Post #32 of 68
I don't think there are really many professional classical musicians that later join a metal band.

But most of the good metal comes from euro-nordic regions and I think from childhood they are more exposed to classical music and perhaps had some lessons when young, thus some classical elements creep into their metal soundscapes especially more progressive types of metal........much more than the USA culture/metal scence

There is an entire genre called symphonic metal (usually dark themed) which very directly borrows from classical themes and styles, a hybrid of the two. For instance Belioz Symphony Fantastique 4th movement could be a dark metal track if metal instruments were used instead and vocals added.

Also I find a connection between the extreme ornamented opera vocal technique and the extreme vocal styles used in dark metal, both use various enhanced/distorted vocal techniques like a musical instrument to add great atmosphere and emotion to song and not just deliver words in an obvious fashion

Anyway I find classical/metal to be a ying/yang relationship, two extremes of the pendulum swing with safe predictable pop music in the center which is fine.......but I am much more passionate about my classical and metal collections
 
Jul 27, 2007 at 2:17 AM Post #33 of 68
Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhaub /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Now that's a really intelligent reply. I just stated my opinion and my reasons, and that makes me an idiot. Why? Because I don't like the same music you like? Can you defend your comment? Probably not. And why not? Because like a lot of other sheep that can't think for themselves, rather than offering an intelligent, thoughtful response in a debate all you can do is make an ad hominem attack. Typical. Don't even bother replying, I won't be visiting this thread anymore. Go on with your self-righteous delusions that metal is the equal of Mozart or Beethoven. It's not. Really.


sorry. i just didnt feel like wasting my time writing out a long response to your first post. wasnt worth it IMO. i personally could care less what you listen to. Asmox basically stated exactly how I feel about your post. Just because you used a lot of words in your post doesnt mean it was anything near intelligent. You obviously know nothing of the metal genre. I dont pretend to be an expert of classical but I also dont go into threads throwing around very uneducated blanket statements. I'm personally a fan of Mozart thank you very much.
 
Jul 27, 2007 at 3:55 AM Post #34 of 68
This thread is interesting, and sometimes it seems more like a heated religious disucssion than a discussion about music. That's Ok though, because it shows the passion many of us have for music. We want to defend our realm, the music we individually deem significant to our own lives.

Here's a short story about music for me:

Back in 2001 I heard my first Opeth song, Bleak. I heard this song at the same time my then 15 year-old daughter slipped into a depressive state which lasted for the better part of 4 years. (*Knock wood) She is graduating Boston College this December. We've come a long way. But back to the music.

I hear this song Bleak, with the vocalist Mikael Akerfeldt trading off between a deep death growl and super clean vocals. I hear a song that lasts for almost 10 minutes, ebbing and flowing with heavy, harsh, and melodic guitar, and a clean and sometimes complicated percussion. It swept me away into that "musical" world we all enjoy. In those moments of musical bliss, the dark cloud that was over me disappeared. I felt the pressure released, and just floated away with the song. Since then, The Drapery Falls became my #1 all-time favorite song (by Opeth, of course), and then Ghost of Perdition eclipsed it.

This short story scratches the surface in what music means to me.

Sorry for the off-topic bit.

But, in the defense of my realm, I will vehemently disagree with this quote from mbhaub, "Go on with your self-righteous delusions that metal is the equal of Mozart or Beethoven. It's not. Really." I was brought up with classical piano lessons. I listened to classical music, going several times to see Arthur Fiedler and The Boston Pops. I listen to Opeth now, and hear every bit the equal to anything else that can muscially be thrown at me, classical or otherwise. I hear technical brilliance, and music with the ability to embrace me, just like classical music does to my father.

That's how I feel. So I hope each of you, whether I personally agree with you or not, takes whatever it is that the music you listen to gives to you, and embraces it.
 
Jul 27, 2007 at 4:35 AM Post #35 of 68
They do it to wear spandex, spikes and to impress the ladies of course
icon10.gif


Seriously though, I am not aware of such a stream of classical musicians turning to metal. Although artists crossing over into different genres is nothing new, and metal is no less appealing to musicians.
Its very creative, and demands high virtuosity and command of the instrument, as well as sharing many of the musical modes, scales and motifs that are familiar to classical musicians, moreso than blues/rock players. Neo-classical metal from the 1980s is probably the easiest example to cite.
Classical musicians maybe feel their creativity is stiffled, since they largely spend their time perfecting their interpretations and playing the works of great composers. In jazz or metal, they are perhaps freer to compose and to express themselves to a greater extent and in unconventional ways with digital processors, effects etc.

As to the side-argument that has sprouted here about whether metal is as "worthy" as classical, I think this is a moot point. They are both forms of musical expression and each has its place. I think musicians in each camp have respect for and appreciate what the other does, even if they dont play that style of music.
 
Jul 27, 2007 at 4:54 AM Post #37 of 68
Quote:

Originally Posted by PSmith08 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The story, for example, goes that Pierre Boulez' second piano sonata brought Yvonne Loriod, an accomplished performer of the modern repertoire, to tears.* I could be wrong, but I doubt that most popular music of the age brings its performers to tears.


lol - we're not talking about popular music here, we're talking about metal. And tear-inducement is obviously not a universal quality in classical music (pick your own examples).

I've never seriously gotten into metal - there are too few hours in the day and dollars in my bank account - but I've certainly enjoyed some of what I've heard in the way of death and black metal, and I can definitely see aesthetic similarities: A symphony orchestra in full flight can have a tonal and visceral similarity to a metal band; Metal songs are often innovative in structure, and as observed above, the phraseology often has a lot in common with the Germanic symphonic tradition; Both genres can feature astounding virtuosity; Both genres give rise to enthusiastic commitment and aesthetic awareness unusual in most popular music.

Metal is more consistently aggressive and "heavy" in sound and subject, but "heaviosity" is not unknown in classical music. Check out Beethoven's symphonies 3, 5 and 9, all of Bruckner (starting with 4 and 9), Wagner's overtures, Holst's "Mars" (of course), Mussorgsky's "Night on bald mountain" and "Pictures at an exhibition", and then maybe some of the wilder "modern" music.

Sure, most metal is garbage, but as Theodore Sturgeon said, "90% of anything is crud", and that includes classical music. You can't judge a musical genre by the worst examples.
 
Jul 27, 2007 at 9:00 AM Post #39 of 68
Just a some thoughts:
Would Wagner fit in one of the Metal (sub) genres?
If so, (maybe seen from 19th century perspective) why would any musician cross over to another genre?
Why would we call it a cross over if a musician actually just sticks to playing the music he feels the most for?
In short, why stick a label on it?
 
Jul 27, 2007 at 2:08 PM Post #40 of 68
Another example of classical stuff mixed with Metal. This time classical with Death Metal. Actually the album is an Opera show/story varying from "barbaric" deathmetal to beautifull but hard classical to opera to electronic/rap and so on. That album is Waltari - Yeah!Yeah!Die!Die! Death Metal Symphony In Deep C. It has everything, growls, clean vocs and female opera singer etc...

Quote from metal archives: Performed a few times live in august 1995 with Avanti! Symphony Orchestra in the Helsinki Opera House, conducted by Riku Niemi, as a part of the annual Helsinki Festival.
 
Jul 27, 2007 at 8:21 PM Post #41 of 68
Im not a hardcore metal fan or anything, but didnt like 3 members of dream theater go to juilliard? you're saying they dont have talent or skill? I agree that some metal is just noise just like any genre. You're telling me a band like Isis or Pelican has little skill? They create vast landscapes of sound, that are in-one-word...awesome.

I think metal is alot like classical, where the artists can actually compose great pieces of music, that can be whatever they want it to be.
 
Jul 27, 2007 at 9:49 PM Post #42 of 68
Now this is a really, really interesting and provoking topic. Too bad it turned into a flamewar for a while, but as several people have stated, mbhaub's post showed real ignorance and lack of understanding about metal, and was sure to provoke an adverse reaction. Fortunately we are back on topic again. I personally do think that I have knowledge of both classical and metal music, just like a lot of other frequent darkest desires posters and other metal listeners on this forum do, so I try to avoid making any broad generalizations of either musical style. I even did study musicology for a few years (exploiting finnish free academic education is a bliss...).

I wouldn't say that there is a ongoing trend of classical musicians turning into metal. There are some, but I think it's more about metal bands implementing elements from western classical music and showing some will to merge with the classical music institution. In example, we have had metal operas in Finland. "Evankeliumi" was even performed in the finnish opera house. Swedish Entombed performed with ballet dancers and symphonic orchestras are often hired to play on metal albums. Of course there are also cases like Apocalyptica, where four professional cello players formed up a metal band and Tarja Turunen, who was originally a classical vocalists and ended up in a metal band. The list goes on...

Still, I think the more interesting topic is "What do metal and classical music have musically in common?". First of all, both are limited only by their instrumentation and musical institutions (or possibly art worlds). Looking at the history of western classical music, the only thing that hasn't completely changed during the times is the instrumentation, and in some cases, composers/musicians, who are connected to the classical music "scene", can also make wide sonical experimentations, like electroacoustic music from Stockhausen, Varese, Saariaho etc, and it's still considered as part of the classical music canon. Same goes for metal. It's main element has been distorted guitars, electric bass and loud drums, but the compositions and subgenres/styles have varied ernomously. Interestingly the evolution of metal music is somewhat similar to western classical music. Oldschool heavy metal (or new wave of british heavy metal) has a lot in common with baroque-era classical music. Less emphasize on harmony, more on virtuosic playing, contrasts and kind of contrapunctal composing, where we have simplified notes/chord progressions as rhytm and more expressive and lively melodies on top of them. Usually made up from a lot of short duration notes. This is most apparent in neo-classical metal. After that, a lot of metal bands started to slow down the tempo a bit (except extreme metal bands of course) and create a bit softer, more melodic approach. Just like composers of Wien-classical era did. Then we have nordic metal, which relied more on expressing (often dark) emotions than instrumental virtuosity. Nationality and cultural heritage also became frequent themes. This reminds me a lot of romantic and post-romantic era classical music. Finally we have avant-garde metal, technical metal, math-metal etc, which are musically really atonal, unharmonic, rhytmically complex and hard to listen. Some of the most complex tracks from Meshuggah differ from the works from ie. Schöenberg only by their instrumentation. Both classical and metal music in their extremes have moved further and further into composing soundscapes instead of notes. The modern atonal classical/electroacoustic music composer, Xenakis, even stated that the future of music is in composing sound, not notes.

There are even cases, where metal and classical music get so close to each other that it's hard to even categorize the music in either genre. This most often happens when metal bands abandon the metal instrumentation, and express their music with acoustic instruments. In musicology I did a short essay about Elend and why it's considered metal. I started the presentation by playing the track "La Terre N'Aime Pas Le Sang" (a very intense and chaotic piece played entirely by classical instruments) and asked the listeners, who mostly had experience only on classical music, if they could recognize the composer. Many of them thought it was a work of some composer of modern atonal art music. None of them had any idea that the track came from a band which is considered as part of the metal scene.

The idea of instrumentation being the only defining factor of a genre and musical freedom being more important than pleasing the wide audience also works for jazz and electronic music. In some cases even folk music. So why is metal closest to classical? Maybe because in a way, emotion has not been that imporant in pure electronic music, and compositions are not that complex or ambitious in jazz, which relies more on pure improvisation. Folk often favours simplicity, which may turn some classical musicians off.

Just my ideas. Feel free to comment.
 
Jul 27, 2007 at 11:45 PM Post #45 of 68
lol This entire thread is a generalization :p

Name 5 examples off the top of your head, or it's hardly a trend. I would hazard a guess there are just a many/few classical instrumentalists that changed to metal as there are those who changed to jazz, pop etc. It's not hard to come up with examples of every kind of move, from Alex Skolnick diving into jazz, or Gothenburg metallers writing pop songs which chart in the US (which has happened, but the guy's name escapes me atm).
 

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