Frequencys/Songs with "effect" on the human body

[Ghoostknight]

In film sound there’s often significant content below 20Hz but that’s typically unintentional, just a by product. Films are mixed according to the sound systems in cinemas and human perception, so as a general rule, there’s nothing intentional below around 30Hz.

its pretty much not unintentional imo, just because content under 20hz isnt "audible" doesnt mean you cant "expierence" it

Also, and this really wonders me, heared it now a few times... "content under 40hz and above 10khz is barely there and doesnt matter", well i just checked the last week or so with the spectrometer of "easyeffects" and i can tell you, 20 hz content (and stuff above 10khz...) is very much "there" (and it matters...), unfortunaly i cant check under 20hz but i dont believe it it will just cut off there since i can enable a "subsonic filter" (high pass, 10hz, Q 0,7) and actually hear a difference in MANY songs, atleast my catalog has more stuff with content under 20hz than without it...

also i noticed in some movies, you have quite parts where the spectrometer is showing barely anything but you got a huge (constant) spike around 20hz, imo this is a "atmosphere" effect and nothing unintentional, it would be rather easy to set a high pass in these cases for the soundengineer

 

[71 dB]

Hang on, you stated you’re using studio monitors, there are no studio monitors that reproduce 18.98Hz, let alone 7.83Hz. Most nearfield monitors start rolling-off around 50Hz or so.

Genelec 1236A SAM according to the manufactures specs goes down to 17.5 Hz ( -6 dB ).

 

[Ghoostknight]

Hang on, you stated you’re using studio monitors, there are no studio monitors that reproduce 18.98Hz, let alone 7.83Hz. Most nearfield monitors start rolling-off around 50Hz or so.

Genelec 1236A SAM according to the manufactures specs goes down to 17.5 Hz ( -6 dB ).

to actually answer the question since i dont think i have, i use presonus eris e8 right now (stock 35hz -10db)
BUT
1. BR-port is closed
2. the room is pretty good "sealed" if i have the door closed (which i normally have) and i can actually hear the bass reducing if i open the door or a window
3. my housecurve helps bump the bass under 40 hz around 1-2db

if i remember correctly the last measurement after correction was flat to around 38hz at 85db (i have a roommode at around 40hz) and a linear decrease to 20hz at around 60db, its not flat but 20hz is "audible" in this case

 

[gregorio]

I guess we can find exceptions. Like aren't there certain recordings with organs going towards fundamental 20Hz (beyond as you say film applications)?

Yes, there can be exceptions, as I mentioned. There are a couple of organs in the world that have a pipe producing 16Hz for example, how often is that pipe used or recorded though? The lowest note on a bass guitar is “low E”, which defines the lowest pitch in nearly all rock/pop genres and equates to around 42Hz but isn’t commonly used. Much the same in an orchestra, low “C” (32Hz) being the lowest note the lowest orch instruments can go but again, it’s very rarely used. A far better/more common exception would be an orchestral bass drum (and some kick drums in pop/rock), which puts out quite a bit of energy below 30Hz but of course it’s unpitched and its sound is defined by higher harmonics. It’s commonly not removed in mixing/mastering though, so it’s probably on most recordings, even though it’s not necessary.

We recently had an exchange about how cinemas are now having some uncontrolled loudness wars....I wonder if that might also extend into subwoofer levels?

No, if anything the opposite. If loudness is what you’re after, you need to reduce sub-bass freqs and have peak levels far higher in the spectrum. If we want specifically loud bass/low sound, perhaps counterintuitively the solution is not to have more sub-bass (<40Hz) but less. This is an early lesson for engineering students, who typically want a great deal of bass/sub-bass (particularly in film sound and more recent music genres) and try to achieve it by simply adding more, with predictably poor results.

Genelec 1236A SAM according to the manufactures specs goes down to 17.5 Hz ( -6 dB ).

Which is why I asked what studio monitors. When owning/referring to studio monitors, the vast majority of consumers/audiophiles are talking about near-field monitors, which do not include sub-woofers. Few would be referring to something like the 1236A’s, which are completely inappropriate for home use, they’re even inappropriate for most studio use, they’re designed for film dubbing stages and very large recording studio control rooms. Not much point in the average audiophile’s sitting room of having 182kg monitors with a 130dB max output designed as mid/far-field monitors. And incidentally, 1236A’s are specified as 21Hz-20kHz (+/- 2dB) but will extend to 17.5Hz-26kHz (-6dB).

G
Edit: Typo weight of the 1236a monitors is 182kg, not 82kg.

 

[gregorio]

its pretty much not unintentional imo,

And what is your opinion of the intention based on? Is it based on formal training in film sound, on ever having done it professionally or even ever seeing it done, is it based on the facts of cinema sound systems or the science of psychoacoustics? Or is it yet another wild guess that deliberately ignores all the above?

just because content under 20hz isnt "audible" doesnt mean you cant "expierence" it

True but then you have to define the conditions under which it is true and then know when or even if those conditions actually exist! If you do not, then (as typical) it’s just falsehoods/nonsense!

Also, and this really wonders me, heared it now a few times...

If you wonder about it, then what you should do is either ask or research the reliable evidence. What you should NOT do (in this subforum) is simply make up nonsense or regurgitate marketing BS!

"content under 40hz and above 10khz is barely there and doesnt matter",

No one said content below 40Hz and above 10kHz doesn’t matter! In most music recordings content below 40Hz almost never matters (~30Hz in film) but content above 10kHz almost always does matter. Above 16kHz it almost never matters and above 20kHz it definitely never matters.

well i just checked the last week or so with the spectrometer of "easyeffects" and i can tell you, 20 hz content (and stuff above 10khz...) is very much "there" (and it matters...)

And how did you check? Was this controlled testing or just sighted/uncontrolled?

G

 

[71 dB]

to actually answer the question since i dont think i have, i use presonus eris e8 right now (stock 35hz -10db)
BUT
1. BR-port is closed
2. the room is pretty good "sealed" if i have the door closed (which i normally have) and i can actually hear the bass reducing if i open the door or a window
3. my housecurve helps bump the bass under 40 hz around 1-2db

if i remember correctly the last measurement after correction was flat to around 38hz at 85db (i have a roommode at around 40hz) and a linear decrease to 20hz at around 60db, its not flat but 20hz is "audible" in this case

The hearing threshold of 20 Hz is around 70-80 dB. Whenever people say they "hear" 20 Hz, it is time to ask if they actually hear the harmonics (40 Hz, 60 Hz, 80 Hz,...). Our hearing is able to reconstruct the fundamental frequency from the harmonics. Reproducing 20 Hz at audible levels without much harmonic distortion is quite challenging and a totally hopeless task for a small speaker such as your Presonus Eris E8, bass reflex port sealed or not.

Which is why I asked what studio monitors. When owning/referring to studio monitors, the vast majority of consumers/audiophiles are talking about near-field monitors, which do not include sub-woofers. Few would be referring to something like the 1236A’s, which are completely inappropriate for home use, they’re even inappropriate for most studio use, they’re designed for film dubbing stages and very large recording studio control rooms. Not much point in the average audiophile’s sitting room of having 82kg monitors with a 130dB max output designed as mid/far-field monitors. And incidentally, 1236A’s are specified as 21Hz-20kHz (+/- 2dB) but will extend to 17.5Hz-26kHz (-6dB).

G

Genelec 1236A SAM is 182 kg, not "only" 82 kg, but yes, it is for the largest studios while home studios/small studios are likely to use much smaller speakers such as Genelec 8030C (47 Hz, -6 dB) or maybe even something like Genelec 8341A (38 Hz, -6 dB). So, without powerful subwoofers talking about infrasonic frequencies at levels that matter is pretty useless. Speakers that go under 20 Hz are rare, big and expensive, but they do exist.

 

[gregorio]

Whenever people say they "hear" 20 Hz, it is time to ask if they actually hear the harmonics (40 Hz, 60 Hz, 80 Hz,...)

Yep, typical audiophile assumption. The audiophile world would look a lot different if they actually tested how much dynamic range and how high and low they can hear. Frequency and dB are abstract concepts to most audiophiles and they just assume they can hear lots of them.

Speakers that go under 20 Hz are rare, big and expensive, but they do exist.

But that’s the reason we don’t mix for them. Cinemas make their profits from drinks and food/snacks/candy, ticket prices barely cover the construction and operating costs of most cinemas. So, all but a few “tent pole” cinemas could even afford such speakers. If you consider the costs of trying to acoustically deal with very low freqs and the perceptual issues anyway, it simply doesn’t make any sense. We mix films for the ~200,000 cinema screens that do make sense. Hence why the low freq intentional limit when mixing is around 30Hz. BTW, I say “intentional” because most of what we’re doing down there at high levels is unpitched, broadband sounds; explosions, rumbles, artillery fire, etc. So we’re going to have a spread of freq content around (inc. below) our desired freqs.

G

 

[gregorio]

Master and Commander … You can tell the attention to detail when they went and recorded various period canons for the movie.

Are you referring to the DVD extras? I used to use the sound design extras about the period cannon recording in some of my lectures. It’s one of the best examples of why the “real thing” can be useless and what we actually want is something very significantly different. The period cannon actually sounded like a fairly small bell being hit incredibly hard with a stick, not even vaguely like we’d expect a cannon sound, just a mid freq very loud short “crack” with a long “bell ring”. They had to tightly wrap the cannon with a carpet to stop the ring and then use a bunch of different mics, up to half a mile away, mixed together to get the signature cannon “boom”.

G

 

[bigshot]

Also, and this really wonders me, heared it now a few times... "content under 40hz and above 10khz is barely there and doesnt matter", well i just checked the last week or so with the spectrometer of "easyeffects" and i can tell you, 20 hz content (and stuff above 10khz...) is very much "there"

Let’s see your spectrum. What is the level of 10kHz and above compared to the octave below? I bet it was significantly lower- most likely over 30dB lower except in cymbal crashes where it would be masked. It’s audible a little bit, but it doesn’t impact sound quality.

 

[71 dB]

Yep, typical audiophile assumption. The audiophile world would look a lot different if they actually tested how much dynamic range and how high and low they can hear. Frequency and dB are abstract concepts to most audiophiles and they just assume they can hear lots of them.

True...

But that’s the reason we don’t mix for them. Cinemas make their profits from drinks and food/snacks/candy, ticket prices barely cover the construction and operating costs of most cinemas. So, all but a few “tent pole” cinemas could even afford such speakers.

Cinemas don't need "such" speakers, because they use massive subwooders. I remember how some 30 years ago we did an excursion to a THX certified movie theatre in Helsinki as part of an acoustics course and we where told the specs of their sub: two 18 inch drivers, 2 kW of amp power and about 2000 litres of cabinet space. -6dB response frequency around 15 Hz. I don't know if I remember these specs correctly, but they shouldn't be far off. Subwoofer systems like this are much cheaper than speakers with similar bass capabilities because very large cabinet, 18 inch drivers and a lot of amp power takes you far.

If you consider the costs of trying to acoustically deal with very low freqs and the perceptual issues anyway, it simply doesn’t make any sense. We mix films for the ~200,000 cinema screens that do make sense. Hence why the low freq intentional limit when mixing is around 30Hz. BTW, I say “intentional” because most of what we’re doing down there at high levels is unpitched, broadband sounds; explosions, rumbles, artillery fire, etc. So we’re going to have a spread of freq content around (inc. below) our desired freqs.

G

Yes. A lot of music doesn't do much below 50 Hz let alone 30 Hz.

 

[gregorio]

I remember how some 30 years ago we did an excursion to a THX certified movie theatre in Helsinki as part of an acoustics course and we where told the specs of their sub: two 18 inch drivers, 2 kW of amp power and about 2000 litres of cabinet space. -6dB response frequency around 15 Hz.

THX certified theatres were fairly rare things and even rarer these days.

I think you might have got those specs a bit wrong or rather they might be right but unless it’s a very small cinema there would usually be several of them. A medium/large cinema would likely have >20kW of sub power and very big ones double that!

The LF range of cinema subs can vary, quite a few are specified to 27Hz or 28Hz but can produce 20kHz (with lower output levels), some are specified to 18Hz or 19Hz. Some specialist ones go to 12Hz or 13Hz but they’re very rare. Hence why it’s safer to not intentionally go below 30Hz, besides the acoustic/psychoacoustic issues.

G

 

[bigshot]

Theaters where I live have really good sound systems.

 

[Ghoostknight]

The hearing threshold of 20 Hz is around 70-80 dB. Whenever people say they "hear" 20 Hz, it is time to ask if they actually hear the harmonics (40 Hz, 60 Hz, 80 Hz,...). Our hearing is able to reconstruct the fundamental frequency from the harmonics. Reproducing 20 Hz at audible levels without much harmonic distortion is quite challenging and a totally hopeless task for a small speaker such as your Presonus Eris E8, bass reflex port sealed or not.

well
1. i saw the measurement and
2. i still "hear" (probably better say feel) 20hz and can hear/feel a difference if i set the subsonic filter to 30hz instead of 10hz for example
of course its not as good as a flat speaker at 20hz and just because i dont hit your 70-80db "hearing threshhold" (which i guess actually just refers to HEARING instead of feeling it) doesnt mean infrasonic is "non existent" on my speakers...
i also played around with a (two) sinewave generator as i tried monaural beats and solfeggio frequencys and a pure 18 to 20hz sinewave was still -noticable-

we could also argue about the reports of infrasonics being very unpleasent and unhealthy, i dont think those reports talk about very high levels

tho what i noticed, as i tweaked my system (right power plug direction, AC power filter, new dac/opamp, room treatment and speaker placement to name a few with impact on bass performance) i noticed that bass performance vastly increased (deeper harder punching bass) which funny enough also gave binaural/monaural beats more impact which i dont noticed in this extend before

 

[Ghoostknight]

Let’s see your spectrum. What is the level of 10kHz and above compared to the octave below? I bet it was significantly lower- most likely over 30dB lower except in cymbal crashes where it would be masked. It’s audible a little bit, but it doesn’t impact sound quality.

yes content over 10 to 15khz most of the time had a slope but that doesnt mean it doesnt matter "AT ALL" it can still make a difference

 

[redrol]

I got a song but you need some big speakers and a lot of SPL:

This will rearrange your organs.