Focal Utopia General Discussion
Feb 22, 2023 at 3:59 PM Post #19,186 of 20,602
Some thoughts. I apologize if anyone doesn't find it worth the time it took to read.

For what it's worth, I have the Utopia 2022 and the Abyss 1266TC both right here. All fed by Holo -May and Bliss KTE. I really like both cans. The Utopia fall far...very far... short of of the Abyss in terms of pure resolution. They blur details my Grado GS3000X lays out clearly. But "objectively" is the problem. To some - and I would be in that group if I wasn't paying attention - resolution is a huge thing. At flagship levels, I can't accept compromises there. Objectively, a top-shelf headphone can't miss notes, edges, emphases.

I'm also wrong. There is objective data in the bits. But the illusion is never perfect, and to me, objective measurements and their relationship to "better" is worse than pointless. What god does one defer to? I can claim to have fantastic ears. But whether or not I'm objectively better that 99.9999% of music lovers at auditory discrimination tasks, I have no authority to tell anyone else how to listen. or whether they're doing it wrong. But even the best designs have compromises which a given person either doesn't hear, doesn't base their pleasure and judgment upon, or, maybe just feels good. And I doubt the audio gods, or God as an audiophile, considers it a sin to prefer equipment with a lumpy FR, among other "flaws". And the Utopia gets the flow and impact of the music very correct, for me. And it DOES reveal a great deal. It's not a muddled headphone, at all.

But, about being "wrong"... Cognitive dissonance: The Utopia presents music in ways I disapprove of (on the Flagship Rating Scale, which doesn't exist, it gets a B for resolution. Objectively, according to me. I'm a detail freak). But it brings me more PLEASURE than the Abyss 1266TC. And, thinking of music as a whole experience, I sorta sense that the Utopia's qualities were VERY carefully considered, and that the result reflects some sophisticated understanding of how people hear music. Not how they evaluate it. How they EXPERIENCE it. And in this sense, the Utopia may be a greater engineering achievement, even if the Abyss is more resolving in some ways.

My favorite music through the Utopia FEELS better. The Abyss IS better because it reveals more.... but does it? , or does it reveal more of certain things which matter less to my audio-pleasure gland and more to my full-disclosure/truth/whole-truth/nothing-but-truth detector?
I'm selling stuff. I have too many headphones, and I can't fool myself into believing I can afford them. I've spent over a month changing my mind about what has to stay, and what can go. The Abyss is "clearly better". But I won't miss it (much). And the thought of selling the Utopia '22 made me sad, and made me think of how damned MOVING it was to hear certain pieces through it.

Come to think of it, I also LIKED the Empyrean. Which was, in an analytical mindset, a big bowl of oatmeal with berries. Nourishing moosh. One of its dealers cautioned me that it was not good for "critical listening". I disparaged that remark, since the Empyreans were pretty and I wanted them. But he was right. Without hearing the details, the gestalt ain't worth it. Not in the four digit price range. My 600 dollar Grados - not cheap - as well as the GS3000X, made the Empyreans seem muddled and confused, even if the warm hug of their sound was pleasant in itself. But I wouldn't have tolerated paying good money for concert tickets if the acoustics were as muddled as the Empyreans. And, yeah, I get it: thousands of experienced audio buffs love the Empyreans. I found the Elites to be a big jump in the right direction, while maintaining the tonal pleasantness and spatiality of the Empyreans. But still just MISSING lots of the music.

According to me. And as far as the measurement crowd goes, my own personal ears have not found the better-measuring devices to be more enjoyable or MUSICALLY communicative than the worse-measuring ones more than half the time. Measurements and "objectivity" certainly have their place in engineering; but I'm a psychologist and, by training and bad habit, a philosopher. most of the time, the word "objective" as used, is misunderstood, misapplied, or is simply a competitive or defensive way of saying that one knows better data and knows it without bias. My objective subjectivity - the clean, clear fact that it is ME experiencing a and b, and that some of you will have similar experiences, allows me to say, here's how I experienced it, here's how it made me feel and think.

But no independent data will ever carry more authority than that experience, that phenomenology. What it is like to BE ME, listening to this music through this equipment. The Abyss 1266TC is "objectively" a better set of headphones than the Utopia... until I play music through them and make note of how I feel. And then the Utopia is objectively better, because the pairing of ME + Utopia results in a more fulfilling musical experience much more often than the ME + Abyss1266TC combo. That is an objective fact about my musical subjectivity, which will closely resemble that of many other people. Measurements which do not agree can only do so by referring to an inhuman, non-musical standard which simply will not and cannot have any bearing on a living listener's experience, except to make them wonder whether their own experience is incorrect, whether they should feel and hear differently, defer to the math.
Have you auditioned the Susvara with a proper amp? More resolving and spacious than the Utopia, without the tuning issues and clunky ergonomics of the 1266TC. Outside of estats, Utopia is probably my second favorite headphone overall, but I sold mine because I never reached for it after getting a Susvara. The thing I love most about the Susvara and Utopia is their correctness of timbre, and hence versatility across all genres of music. FWIW.
 
Feb 22, 2023 at 7:34 PM Post #19,187 of 20,602
My favorite music through the Utopia FEELS better. The Abyss IS better because it reveals more.... but does it? , or does it reveal more of certain things which matter less to my audio-pleasure gland and more to my full-disclosure/truth/whole-truth/nothing-but-truth detector?
This pretty much sums up why I'm [relatively] convinced Utopia is "the best headphone in the world", at least *for me*. I know other headphones might be "better" at specific things, but overall does any of them offer a better overall experience than Utopia? So far, no.
 
Feb 22, 2023 at 7:50 PM Post #19,188 of 20,602
Some thoughts. I apologize if anyone doesn't find it worth the time it took to read.

For what it's worth, I have the Utopia 2022 and the Abyss 1266TC both right here. All fed by Holo -May and Bliss KTE. I really like both cans. The Utopia fall far...very far... short of of the Abyss in terms of pure resolution. They blur details my Grado GS3000X lays out clearly. But "objectively" is the problem. To some - and I would be in that group if I wasn't paying attention - resolution is a huge thing. At flagship levels, I can't accept compromises there. Objectively, a top-shelf headphone can't miss notes, edges, emphases.

I'm also wrong. There is objective data in the bits. But the illusion is never perfect, and to me, objective measurements and their relationship to "better" is worse than pointless. What god does one defer to? I can claim to have fantastic ears. But whether or not I'm objectively better that 99.9999% of music lovers at auditory discrimination tasks, I have no authority to tell anyone else how to listen. or whether they're doing it wrong. But even the best designs have compromises which a given person either doesn't hear, doesn't base their pleasure and judgment upon, or, maybe just feels good. And I doubt the audio gods, or God as an audiophile, considers it a sin to prefer equipment with a lumpy FR, among other "flaws". And the Utopia gets the flow and impact of the music very correct, for me. And it DOES reveal a great deal. It's not a muddled headphone, at all.

But, about being "wrong"... Cognitive dissonance: The Utopia presents music in ways I disapprove of (on the Flagship Rating Scale, which doesn't exist, it gets a B for resolution. Objectively, according to me. I'm a detail freak). But it brings me more PLEASURE than the Abyss 1266TC. And, thinking of music as a whole experience, I sorta sense that the Utopia's qualities were VERY carefully considered, and that the result reflects some sophisticated understanding of how people hear music. Not how they evaluate it. How they EXPERIENCE it. And in this sense, the Utopia may be a greater engineering achievement, even if the Abyss is more resolving in some ways.

My favorite music through the Utopia FEELS better. The Abyss IS better because it reveals more.... but does it? , or does it reveal more of certain things which matter less to my audio-pleasure gland and more to my full-disclosure/truth/whole-truth/nothing-but-truth detector?
I'm selling stuff. I have too many headphones, and I can't fool myself into believing I can afford them. I've spent over a month changing my mind about what has to stay, and what can go. The Abyss is "clearly better". But I won't miss it (much). And the thought of selling the Utopia '22 made me sad, and made me think of how damned MOVING it was to hear certain pieces through it.

Come to think of it, I also LIKED the Empyrean. Which was, in an analytical mindset, a big bowl of oatmeal with berries. Nourishing moosh. One of its dealers cautioned me that it was not good for "critical listening". I disparaged that remark, since the Empyreans were pretty and I wanted them. But he was right. Without hearing the details, the gestalt ain't worth it. Not in the four digit price range. My 600 dollar Grados - not cheap - as well as the GS3000X, made the Empyreans seem muddled and confused, even if the warm hug of their sound was pleasant in itself. But I wouldn't have tolerated paying good money for concert tickets if the acoustics were as muddled as the Empyreans. And, yeah, I get it: thousands of experienced audio buffs love the Empyreans. I found the Elites to be a big jump in the right direction, while maintaining the tonal pleasantness and spatiality of the Empyreans. But still just MISSING lots of the music.

According to me. And as far as the measurement crowd goes, my own personal ears have not found the better-measuring devices to be more enjoyable or MUSICALLY communicative than the worse-measuring ones more than half the time. Measurements and "objectivity" certainly have their place in engineering; but I'm a psychologist and, by training and bad habit, a philosopher. most of the time, the word "objective" as used, is misunderstood, misapplied, or is simply a competitive or defensive way of saying that one knows better data and knows it without bias. My objective subjectivity - the clean, clear fact that it is ME experiencing a and b, and that some of you will have similar experiences, allows me to say, here's how I experienced it, here's how it made me feel and think.

But no independent data will ever carry more authority than that experience, that phenomenology. What it is like to BE ME, listening to this music through this equipment. The Abyss 1266TC is "objectively" a better set of headphones than the Utopia... until I play music through them and make note of how I feel. And then the Utopia is objectively better, because the pairing of ME + Utopia results in a more fulfilling musical experience much more often than the ME + Abyss1266TC combo. That is an objective fact about my musical subjectivity, which will closely resemble that of many other people. Measurements which do not agree can only do so by referring to an inhuman, non-musical standard which simply will not and cannot have any bearing on a living listener's experience, except to make them wonder whether their own experience is incorrect, whether they should feel and hear differently, defer to the math.
since you've quoted my post, i feel compelled to provide some context. i posted it in response to a poster who is in the habit of describing his favourite headphone(s) in absolute terms e.g., 'the best' and in this instance 'objectively superior', when what he is actually doing is expressing his personal preference, which is subjective.
 
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Feb 23, 2023 at 8:35 AM Post #19,189 of 20,602
How much different is the OG Utopia vs 2022? I had the OG, and it was my favorite headphone. Thinking of picking up another and wondering if 2022 is worth the difference in pricing on the used market.
 
Feb 23, 2023 at 8:40 AM Post #19,190 of 20,602
How much different is the OG Utopia vs 2022? I had the OG, and it was my favorite headphone. Thinking of picking up another and wondering if 2022 is worth the difference in pricing on the used market.
There's plenty if information on this on the 2022 thread(s). The consensus is that the new one isn't worth double what you could potentially get the old one for. But that if you found the old one too treble-fatiguing, the new one could work well for you.
 
Feb 23, 2023 at 10:53 AM Post #19,192 of 20,602
a poster who is in the habit of describing his favourite headphone(s) in absolute terms e.g., 'the best' and in this instance 'objectively superior'
I hope you are not talking about me, because what you are writing is absolutely not true.
I actually tend to describe the defect of my headphones and what I would like to improve..I use eq with all my cans..
for sure I am not a fan boy
 
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Feb 23, 2023 at 11:46 AM Post #19,194 of 20,602
I wouldn't say the differences between Utopia OG and Utopia 2022 very small. Especially in character, yes both noticeably a Focal Utopia, but still with really difference presentation from treble to bass and also how the headphone "reacts" to lesser recording quality (the 2022 is more forgiving).

I simply prefer Focal 2022 due to smoother, more liquid treble/upper mid combine with more kick on the bass, and can play various of recordings nicely. Whether it deserve the increase in price tag or not would be very subjective answer for each person.
 
Feb 23, 2023 at 7:08 PM Post #19,195 of 20,602
I hope you are not talking about me, because what you are writing is absolutely not true.
I actually tend to describe the defect of my headphones and what I would like to improve..I use eq with all my cans..
for sure I am not a fan boy
:rolling_eyes: no, i wasn't referring to you
 
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Feb 24, 2023 at 3:19 AM Post #19,197 of 20,602
*sigh* it's not strange - it's an honest mistake. i assumed that my post (which @mortcola quoted) was in reply to another poster with whom i have had similar exchanges in the past. i have now checked and found that it was actually in response to your post - sorry. i repeat that i was not referring to you in my reply to @mortcola's post. ok?
 
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Feb 26, 2023 at 9:43 PM Post #19,198 of 20,602
Some thoughts. I apologize if anyone doesn't find it worth the time it took to read.

For what it's worth, I have the Utopia 2022 and the Abyss 1266TC both right here. All fed by Holo -May and Bliss KTE. I really like both cans. The Utopia fall far...very far... short of of the Abyss in terms of pure resolution. They blur details my Grado GS3000X lays out clearly. But "objectively" is the problem. To some - and I would be in that group if I wasn't paying attention - resolution is a huge thing. At flagship levels, I can't accept compromises there. Objectively, a top-shelf headphone can't miss notes, edges, emphases.

I'm also wrong. There is objective data in the bits. But the illusion is never perfect, and to me, objective measurements and their relationship to "better" is worse than pointless. What god does one defer to? I can claim to have fantastic ears. But whether or not I'm objectively better that 99.9999% of music lovers at auditory discrimination tasks, I have no authority to tell anyone else how to listen. or whether they're doing it wrong. But even the best designs have compromises which a given person either doesn't hear, doesn't base their pleasure and judgment upon, or, maybe just feels good. And I doubt the audio gods, or God as an audiophile, considers it a sin to prefer equipment with a lumpy FR, among other "flaws". And the Utopia gets the flow and impact of the music very correct, for me. And it DOES reveal a great deal. It's not a muddled headphone, at all.

But, about being "wrong"... Cognitive dissonance: The Utopia presents music in ways I disapprove of (on the Flagship Rating Scale, which doesn't exist, it gets a B for resolution. Objectively, according to me. I'm a detail freak). But it brings me more PLEASURE than the Abyss 1266TC. And, thinking of music as a whole experience, I sorta sense that the Utopia's qualities were VERY carefully considered, and that the result reflects some sophisticated understanding of how people hear music. Not how they evaluate it. How they EXPERIENCE it. And in this sense, the Utopia may be a greater engineering achievement, even if the Abyss is more resolving in some ways.

My favorite music through the Utopia FEELS better. The Abyss IS better because it reveals more.... but does it? , or does it reveal more of certain things which matter less to my audio-pleasure gland and more to my full-disclosure/truth/whole-truth/nothing-but-truth detector?
I'm selling stuff. I have too many headphones, and I can't fool myself into believing I can afford them. I've spent over a month changing my mind about what has to stay, and what can go. The Abyss is "clearly better". But I won't miss it (much). And the thought of selling the Utopia '22 made me sad, and made me think of how damned MOVING it was to hear certain pieces through it.

Come to think of it, I also LIKED the Empyrean. Which was, in an analytical mindset, a big bowl of oatmeal with berries. Nourishing moosh. One of its dealers cautioned me that it was not good for "critical listening". I disparaged that remark, since the Empyreans were pretty and I wanted them. But he was right. Without hearing the details, the gestalt ain't worth it. Not in the four digit price range. My 600 dollar Grados - not cheap - as well as the GS3000X, made the Empyreans seem muddled and confused, even if the warm hug of their sound was pleasant in itself. But I wouldn't have tolerated paying good money for concert tickets if the acoustics were as muddled as the Empyreans. And, yeah, I get it: thousands of experienced audio buffs love the Empyreans. I found the Elites to be a big jump in the right direction, while maintaining the tonal pleasantness and spatiality of the Empyreans. But still just MISSING lots of the music.

According to me. And as far as the measurement crowd goes, my own personal ears have not found the better-measuring devices to be more enjoyable or MUSICALLY communicative than the worse-measuring ones more than half the time. Measurements and "objectivity" certainly have their place in engineering; but I'm a psychologist and, by training and bad habit, a philosopher. most of the time, the word "objective" as used, is misunderstood, misapplied, or is simply a competitive or defensive way of saying that one knows better data and knows it without bias. My objective subjectivity - the clean, clear fact that it is ME experiencing a and b, and that some of you will have similar experiences, allows me to say, here's how I experienced it, here's how it made me feel and think.

But no independent data will ever carry more authority than that experience, that phenomenology. What it is like to BE ME, listening to this music through this equipment. The Abyss 1266TC is "objectively" a better set of headphones than the Utopia... until I play music through them and make note of how I feel. And then the Utopia is objectively better, because the pairing of ME + Utopia results in a more fulfilling musical experience much more often than the ME + Abyss1266TC combo. That is an objective fact about my musical subjectivity, which will closely resemble that of many other people. Measurements which do not agree can only do so by referring to an inhuman, non-musical standard which simply will not and cannot have any bearing on a living listener's experience, except to make them wonder whether their own experience is incorrect, whether they should feel and hear differently, defer to the math.
Interesting post because I own the same headphones and have completely different impressions. For me, the utopia is the reference in tonality, an instrument sounds like I’d believe an instrument sounds. It creates a lovely 3d space where I can locate each and every instrument and if I focus, I know what is being played by violins , horns, whatever. This refers to classical music, obviously. The abyss is a very entertaining “bang, take this” epic theater, grand with bass and slam. But tonally accurate it is not, at least that’s what I think. I also don’t find it more revealing besides certain frequency ranges which are cranked up by the abyss (distorted) ranges. So, for me utopia is the revealing reference and the abyss the (suspected) tonally inaccurate fun presentation.

But each to their own. And I am happy to own both, whereas the utopia is my goto headphone for classical, nothing is better in that department.
 
Feb 26, 2023 at 11:57 PM Post #19,199 of 20,602
Perhaps the resolution/transparency lovers are actually the subjectivists, and the more natural, emotionally engaging headphones are actually the more objective ones? Assuming music is primarily used for emotional response, ultimate resolution aside. Maybe we've had it backwards this whole time, or maybe it's simply different stimuli that lead to emotional engagement from one person to another. Food for thought, coming from an admitted detail junkie.
 
Feb 27, 2023 at 10:31 PM Post #19,200 of 20,602
Interesting post because I own the same headphones and have completely different impressions. For me, the utopia is the reference in tonality, an instrument sounds like I’d believe an instrument sounds. It creates a lovely 3d space where I can locate each and every instrument and if I focus, I know what is being played by violins , horns, whatever. This refers to classical music, obviously. The abyss is a very entertaining “bang, take this” epic theater, grand with bass and slam. But tonally accurate it is not, at least that’s what I think. I also don’t find it more revealing besides certain frequency ranges which are cranked up by the abyss (distorted) ranges. So, for me utopia is the revealing reference and the abyss the (suspected) tonally inaccurate fun presentation.

But each to their own. And I am happy to own both, whereas the utopia is my goto headphone for classical, nothing is better in that department.
The OG Utopia is - currently - the most natural sounding headphone.
 

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