[makne]

In my pro audio years, 2 reasons for balanced :
1. Noise/interference prevention.
2. Signal strength for long cable run.

That is relevant for interconnects and especially long cable rund yes, but not for a headphone cable

 

[makne]

Believable, as in a system should completely disappear leaving me completely immersed in music. Modern recordings have all the information to create this illusion effortlessly.


Thats what I want to achieve with a system. I am afraid my mojo standalone falls short of this by a good distance. Hugo 2 is better but not there completely.

This is what I perceive. If your hps has the synergy, maybe you can achieve this with hugo 2 standalone.

But I do feel utopia has quite a bit more to give than what hugo 2 gets from it.

That is still a very subjective term..

The Hugo has more than enough power to drive the Utopia properly, and a low output impedance that won’t screw with the FR. And adding another amp, while adding more power (which is unneccessary because the hugo is already plenty powerful), will also add more distortion.
In the end it’s a subjective thing and if you prefer the Hugo-Utopia with an amp in between, then absolutely go for it. But you can’t say that it’s because the Utopia’s underdriven from the Hugo, because it’s not. Adding an amp in between can however change the FR and «fine-tune» it to better suit subjective preferences, which is what’s happening here.
Personally I don’t really like the Utopia straight out of the Hugo either, not because it’s underdriven but the Hugo is very transparent and doesn’t add anything to the sound, which ends up making the Utopia a bit too lean sounding for me. Adding an Ayon HA-3 to the mix makes the Utopias way nicer and more «natural» sounding to me personally, because it makes the sound thicker and warmer. Again, not because the hugo is underdriving the Utopia, but becaue the Ayon’s presentation caters more to my personal preferences

 

[Phronesis]

^ Probably worthwhile to make a distinction between perception and subjective preference.

Perception can vary for a given individual from one time to another, and is affected by factors like how much attention we pay, how we direct our attention, volume level, mood, listening fatigue, prior knowledge and beliefs, etc. This can result in our perceiving sound to be different at different times, even when the sound is actually the same. It can also result in our perception of sound differences changing over time - for example, when I try very different headphone back to back, the sound differences can be shocking, but over time my perception adjusts and the sound of each headphone becomes more 'normal'.

Subjective preference comes down to how we'd like the music to sound, so that we can enjoy it. Some generally like more bass, others less, etc. And the preferences of a given individual can also change over time, hence many of us having multiple headphones in order to hear the music in different ways.

 

[makne]

^ Probably worthwhile to make a distinction between perception and subjective preference.

Perception can vary for a given individual from one time to another, and is affected by factors like how much attention we pay, how we direct our attention, volume level, mood, listening fatigue, prior knowledge and beliefs, etc. This can result in our perceiving sound to be different at different times, even when the sound is actually the same. It can also result in our perception of sound differences changing over time - for example, when I try very different headphone back to back, the sound differences can be shocking, but over time my perception adjusts and the sound of each headphone becomes more 'normal'.

Subjective preference comes down to how we'd like the music to sound, so that we can enjoy it. Some generally like more bass, others less, etc. And the preferences of a given individual can also change over time, hence many of us having multiple headphones in order to hear the music in different ways.

Good point, and something I haven’t really put thought into before. I guess what we’re talking about here is perception

 

[vaibhavp]

In my experience, it's difficult to get immersed in the music if I frequently direct my attention to evaluating sound quality. That task is analytical, and in conflict with enjoying music, so I need to flip a mental switch so that I pretty much ignore sound quality.

True. To get immersed first you have to have the right mindset. At the same time your system should be capable of twisting your hand into give up critical listening.

Try critical listening with new Sennheiser Orpheus.

I am not saying its impossible, some people I know even dissected that headphone system. But its a waste of energy and most importantly limited time you get to listen and get immersed.

That is still a very subjective term..

The Hugo has more than enough power to drive the Utopia properly, and a low output impedance that won’t screw with the FR. And adding another amp, while adding more power (which is unneccessary because the hugo is already plenty powerful), will also add more distortion.
In the end it’s a subjective thing and if you prefer the Hugo-Utopia with an amp in between, then absolutely go for it. But you can’t say that it’s because the Utopia’s underdriven from the Hugo, because it’s not. Adding an amp in between can however change the FR and «fine-tune» it to better suit subjective preferences, which is what’s happening here.
Personally I don’t really like the Utopia straight out of the Hugo either, not because it’s underdriven but the Hugo is very transparent and doesn’t add anything to the sound, which ends up making the Utopia a bit too lean sounding for me. Adding an Ayon HA-3 to the mix makes the Utopias way nicer and more «natural» sounding to me personally, because it makes the sound thicker and warmer. Again, not because the hugo is underdriving the Utopia, but becaue the Ayon’s presentation caters more to my personal preferences

That is still a very subjective term..

The Hugo has more than enough power to drive the Utopia properly, and a low output impedance that won’t screw with the FR. And adding another amp, while adding more

Agree. Amp section makes sound more preferable to me and more lifelike. Someone else might prefer hugo 2 standalone. Hp synergy also matters a lot.

 

[nanaholic]

In my experience, "mind blowing moments" are mostly a function of the music and my mood, rather than the equipment. And when we experience the positive emotions of those moments, it's easy to misattribute them to the sound quality. I'm not saying that sound quality doesn't matter, just that it can be difficult to determine how much our positive musical experiences are due to sound quality vs other factors, which can lead us to give too much credit to a difference in sound quality (to the extent that sometimes there's no difference in sound quality at all, but we think there is).

I agree. State of mind absolutely plays a huge part in perceiving what you are currently hearing as well. Not long ago I went to a live concert and afterwards got home to listen to the same songs on my system, and I was so immersed in the playback - more so than usual - and I was noticing things in the composition which I didn't before, most likely because I was still having a rush/having call backs to the live performance which was influencing my enjoyment of the studio recorded CD source, even when absolutely nothing in my system has changed for the past 6 months. Mood most definitely play tricks to what you are hearing.

Anyway, what I find is there is a tendency by people when the system isn't sounding pleasing to their ears to jump to conclude that the amp isn't "driving the headphone properly", I'd also argue that 95% of the time it is the first reason that gets thrown around when someone seeks for advice. Ironically while we usually have very detail measurements and frequency sweeps for both DAC/DAPs and headphones such that we can get a general picture of the sound signature, we don't have them for amps, which can lead to very frustrating and costly journey when it comes to system building when amps are often quickly prescribe as the "cure" yet we don't have much (if any) information to go by to make such judgements.

 

[vaibhavp]

I agree. State of mind absolutely plays a huge part in perceiving what you are currently hearing as well. Not long ago I went to a live concert and afterwards got home to listen to the same songs on my system, and I was so immersed in the playback - more so than usual - and I was noticing things in the composition which I didn't before, most likely because I was still having a rush/having call backs to the live performance which was influencing my enjoyment of the studio recorded CD source, even when absolutely nothing in my system has changed for the past 6 months. Mood most definitely play tricks to what you are hearing.

Anyway, what I find is there is a tendency by people when the system isn't sounding pleasing to their ears to jump to conclude that the amp isn't "driving the headphone properly", I'd also argue that 95% of the time it is the first reason that gets thrown around when someone seeks for advice. Ironically while we usually have very detail measurements and frequency sweeps for both DAC/DAPs and headphones such that we can get a general picture of the sound signature, we don't have them for amps, which can lead to very frustrating and costly journey when it comes to system building when amps are often quickly prescribe as the "cure" yet we don't have much (if any) information to go by to make such judgements.

System matching has always been a difficult and expensive exercise. Availability of measurement has not made things any easier.

With introduction of mojo, hugo etc ppl assume its least distortion so should be the best for every situation. They don't go on a journey to find best synergy, most lifelike sound they can percieve.

 

[Phronesis]

System matching has always been a difficult and expensive exercise. Availability of measurement has not made things any easier.

With introduction of mojo, hugo etc ppl assume its least distortion so should be the best for every situation. They don't go on a journey to find best synergy, most lifelike sound they can percieve.

Personally, I prefer that amps be clean and uncolored, and then I choose headphones to get the sound signature I want for a given track and mood. If you get an essentially uncolored amp with enough power, all such amps will sound about the same (i.e., much less variation than the variation between headphones and tracks), so that takes one variable out of the equation and you don't have to worry about synergy between amps and headphones. Choosing between headphones is already plenty challenging for me (I don't think there can really be such a thing as an 'uncolored' headphone, but some will certainly sound more 'natural' for a given track than others).

 

[Phronesis]

I agree. State of mind absolutely plays a huge part in perceiving what you are currently hearing as well. Not long ago I went to a live concert and afterwards got home to listen to the same songs on my system, and I was so immersed in the playback - more so than usual - and I was noticing things in the composition which I didn't before, most likely because I was still having a rush/having call backs to the live performance which was influencing my enjoyment of the studio recorded CD source, even when absolutely nothing in my system has changed for the past 6 months. Mood most definitely play tricks to what you are hearing.

Yep, many people don't realize that perception is an active process in which we actively select which sensory information to pay attention to, and we use that selected subset of sense data to actively construct a simulated 'model' of physical reality, similar to what happens when we use virtual reality gear. All of this of course happens very quickly in real time, mostly at a subconscious level 'behind the scenes'. Those active processes of selection and construction are influenced by numerous psychological factors, and there's even a degree of mental 'filling in blanks' involved, in order make the model/simulation seem coherent and complete, resulting in our sometimes perceiving things which aren't there in the physical world. It's fascinating stuff, and super relevant to head-fi.

 

[nanaholic]

System matching has always been a difficult and expensive exercise. Availability of measurement has not made things any easier.

With introduction of mojo, hugo etc ppl assume its least distortion so should be the best for every situation. They don't go on a journey to find best synergy, most lifelike sound they can percieve.

"Synergy" though can be quantified - of which measurements most certainly helps. If your headphone sounds thin, look for a warm amp, if you headphone is low impedance and sensitive, make sure you don't get an amp with high output impedance etc. The "synergy" you are talking about isn't really that mysterious, yet the issue is while we get plenty of info on the headphones and even DACs/DAP themselves, amp measurements are hardly ever made available for people to make such value based judgements, and yet again, amps are often (if not nearly always) offered as the first "cure" to sound signature issues. Do you not see the issue with that?

 

[gLer]

"Synergy" though can be quantified - of which measurements most certainly helps. If your headphone sounds thin, look for a warm amp, if you headphone is low impedance and sensitive, make sure you don't get an amp with high output impedance etc. The "synergy" you are talking about isn't really that mysterious, yet the issue is while we get plenty of info on the headphones and even DACs/DAP themselves, amp measurements are hardly ever made available for people to make such value based judgements, and yet again, amps are often (if not nearly always) offered as the first "cure" to sound signature issues. Do you not see the issue with that?

Oh if only it were that simple. The ‘rules’ are useful, yes, but there are so many anomalies that you often just have to try different combinations for yourself - and your own ears. For instance I paired my ZMF Atticus with an OTL amp because that’s what the ‘rules’ said was best for a 300ohm dynamic transducer, but lo and behold I found it to sound best out of a low impedance solid state $350 all-in-one, and one that’s warm of neutral too (also apparently not ideal for the already warm Atticus). You just never know what your ears will like. So yes, follow the rules, but don’t be afraid to plug and judge for yourself!

Sorry guys, straying off topic here, but just thought I’d add my 0.02. Back to Clear...

 

[Gavin C4]

Just got my pair of Clears. After going through so many headphones and climbed up to Utopia and HE1000, I came back to the HD6X0 sound in the form of HD6XX. When I got my Clears, they are the ultimate sound signature that I was hoping for. No significant Flaws like other headphones. Such a long journey and I am delighted to reach the Focal Clear as my final desitnation.

 

[SilverEars]

I agree. State of mind absolutely plays a huge part in perceiving what you are currently hearing as well. Not long ago I went to a live concert and afterwards got home to listen to the same songs on my system, and I was so immersed in the playback - more so than usual - and I was noticing things in the composition which I didn't before, most likely because I was still having a rush/having call backs to the live performance which was influencing my enjoyment of the studio recorded CD source, even when absolutely nothing in my system has changed for the past 6 months. Mood most definitely play tricks to what you are hearing.

Anyway, what I find is there is a tendency by people when the system isn't sounding pleasing to their ears to jump to conclude that the amp isn't "driving the headphone properly", I'd also argue that 95% of the time it is the first reason that gets thrown around when someone seeks for advice. Ironically while we usually have very detail measurements and frequency sweeps for both DAC/DAPs and headphones such that we can get a general picture of the sound signature, we don't have them for amps, which can lead to very frustrating and costly journey when it comes to system building when amps are often quickly prescribe as the "cure" yet we don't have much (if any) information to go by to make such judgements.

True dat. Love those moment of Eurphoria, and those were the best times when your physiological system is reacting like butter. Question is, how do we get ourselves in that state all the time when listening? I'm realizing, it's not all about the gear, but also how your physiological state reacts.

I mean by safe methods, not pumping drugs into your system that will cause withdrawal symptoms

I think one aspect can cause mind-blowing-ness is a probably a particular set of recordings that sounds untypically good on a particular headphone like you've never heard before. That might set something off, but also next day try a different recordings/genre, and you're like, meh.... LOL. And realize you were too excited on a narrow fixation.

 

[koiloco]

... I am delighted to reach the Focal Clear as my final desitnation...

Heresy!!! You forgot to add "...for now..."

 

[doraymon]

I am delighted to reach the Focal Clear as my final d

Mmmhhh I doubt that’s gonna happen...

Lol!